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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:13 am 
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Amen Mrs. Seethrough

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:25 am 
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I pick 'em good, don't I?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:34 pm 
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AgentSeethroo wrote:
I pick 'em good, don't I?


More likely "I get lucky" (speaking from experience. :))

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:22 pm 
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Yup Agent Josh that one is a keeper,How long have you been married?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:23 pm 
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A year and a half now. It'll be 2 years in January.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:17 pm 
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cool

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:00 pm 
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Sorry to bring the topic back to religious affiliations, but...

furrykef wrote:
Dunno about you, Upsilon, but I've never seen anybody get anywhere with that angle. You have to fight on their own turf first. Find something specific in their beliefs which you find flawed, and bring it to their attention, and don't let them try to steer the conversation in another direction. Get to the bottom of the matter. If it proves ineffective, or you discover their reasoning is sound, find some other point. Everybody has holes in their reasoning and understanding that need patching; I'm sure I do. Then work backwards and have them question the whole. If they still accept it, which is of course as legitimate a course of action as any, then at least they've reasoned it out instead of jumping off a cliff in the dark and ending up where they do for no reason.


But surely exposing a hole in the reasoning to justify their belief is just as effective and cuts out the middleman?

Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
My theory is that if he loves us so much then sometimes he just has to sit back and let things play out,and see if his "children" learned from their mistakes. I think that God didn't create puppets he created a race that can choose to follow him if they want and the people who do get a little extra.


The problem with that is that the difference between heaven and hell is as far from "a little extra" than it is possible to get. If you wanted one group of people to get "a little extra", you wouldn't grant them eternal bliss and send the other lot to spend eternity in unbearable pain.

AgentSeeThroo wrote:
When I think of atheism, and please forgive my ignorance, I think that what does it matter if you screw up? You have no real REASON to be good, other than the fact that it's what you SHOULD do. There seems to be no REAL reason to make yourself a better person...


Well, that's an interesting and, frankly, quite depressing thought. I have my own moral code (albeit slightly different from Jesus' teachings) – this may have something to do with being raised as a Christian and brought up with the idea of right and wrong much more than I would otherwise have been. The reason I give to justify being a "good" person is that if you're a decent person and try to make yourself popular, others are likely to return the favour. That's how you make friends. Of course, there are those who aren't nice people. As for them, they reap exactly what they sow. If you act like you want me to hate you, then I will.

~Kupo~ wrote:
What I am getting at: Either there was (and still is) some force at work or we're really,really lucky.


This is known as the lottery fallacy. Your chances of winning the lottery are ridiculously minuscule, and yet people win frequently, simply because there are so many people participating. In the same way, although chances of life evolving on a planet are low, taking into consideration the literally astronomical number of them, it's hardly surprising we've got life here. And if we didn't have life, there might well be a race of hyperintelligent slugs on a small planet millions of lightyears away, thinking about how lucky they are to have evolved properly.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:34 pm 
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Thanks for the kick in the a-dubble-dollar-signs to get back on topic Upsilon.

Upsilon said:
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
My theory is that if he loves us so much then sometimes he just has to sit back and let things play out,and see if his "children" learned from their mistakes. I think that God didn't create puppets he created a race that can choose to follow him if they want and the people who do get a little extra.


The problem with that is that the difference between heaven and hell is as far from "a little extra" than it is possible to get. If you wanted one group of people to get "a little extra", you wouldn't grant them eternal bliss and send the other lot to spend eternity in unbearable pain.


I see it as this Mr. Poopsmith. Let's say that all people following the teachings of christ are all chained to a big 'ol sharp 'ol nasy 'ol rock.
And people are trying to save them,some people get off the rock and are able to live a life knowing that they will never have to strapped to that rock ever again that's my view of being saved,if you are saved you needn't worry what is going to happen to you tommorow because whatever it is it's God's will and you can't do anything about but roll with the punches and count your blessings whenever things get rough and you wonder why you are still existing anyway. And the people that kick and spit at the people that are trying to save them and going to stay on that rock forever even when your corporeal body has crapped out.

And that's it I'm tapped out.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:43 pm 
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Upsilon wrote:
But surely exposing a hole in the reasoning to justify their belief is just as effective and cuts out the middleman?


Not if they take it the wrong way. And being direct in such discussions is, unfortunately, a sure way of being taken the wrong way.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:57 pm 
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I may be too lazy in not going back and reading the whole thread again, but I'm curious to know what hole he's talking about. It may be that what looks like a hole to him doesn't look anything like a hole to us. Who sets the rules on what constitutes a hole and how it should be handled?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:05 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
I may be too lazy in not going back and reading the whole thread again, but I'm curious to know what hole he's talking about. It may be that what looks like a hole to him doesn't look anything like a hole to us. Who sets the rules on what constitutes a hole and how it should be handled?


Also, something may seem like a hole to a person who doesn't hold the same beliefs, but it's usually just a space not filled in their mind due to ignorance.

Never assume you know everything about another person's religion.

My belief is my life, and I study and live it every day. I learn new principles and concepts simply by living. Due to this, my knowledge of Christ and his teachings are always increasing. If you don't study and learn about something every day, how can you know more about it than someone who does.

In the same vein, I would never try to throw "holes" that I may see in someone's belief in their face because I probably wouldn't have the same amount of knowledge that they would.

Finally, if you're trying to show someone that your "way" is the best way, then exposing holes and being self-righteous isn't gonna win any converts, it's just gonna make people get ticked off. You should let your life be a ministry. God is not a god of condemnation, but salvation.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:35 am 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
I see it as this Mr. Poopsmith. Let's say that all people following the teachings of christ are all chained to a big 'ol sharp 'ol nasy 'ol rock.
And people are trying to save them,some people get off the rock and are able to live a life knowing that they will never have to strapped to that rock ever again that's my view of being saved,if you are saved you needn't worry what is going to happen to you tommorow because whatever it is it's God's will and you can't do anything about but roll with the punches and count your blessings whenever things get rough and you wonder why you are still existing anyway. And the people that kick and spit at the people that are trying to save them and going to stay on that rock forever even when your corporeal body has crapped out.


That's a good analogy, Mr. The-Cheat-and-Strong-Mad-and-Strong-Bad-Playing-Trogdor, but it doesn't do much to explain why a god of eternal love unto us would leave anyone strapped to the rock.

furrykef wrote:
Not if they take it the wrong way. And being direct in such discussions is, unfortunately, a sure way of being taken the wrong way.


I don't assume that in a rational debate, people will take things the wrong way (it seems that some have). If they do, all I can do is explain myself and apologise for any offence caused.

Didymus wrote:
I may be too lazy in not going back and reading the whole thread again, but I'm curious to know what hole he's talking about.


It was where I asked Fahooglewitz what grounds he had to believe that the Bible was truth.

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It may be that what looks like a hole to him doesn't look anything like a hole to us. Who sets the rules on what constitutes a hole and how it should be handled?


Well, for me, the bottom line is: if it doesn't make sense to me, I treat it as a hole. You're absolutely right in saying that I might be the one who's wrong; that's why I give the opposing party the chance to explain it. If it turn out to have misjudged the alleged hole, I concede.

AgentSeeThroo wrote:
Also, something may seem like a hole to a person who doesn't hold the same beliefs, but it's usually just a space not filled in their mind due to ignorance.

Never assume you know everything about another person's religion.

My belief is my life, and I study and live it every day. I learn new principles and concepts simply by living. Due to this, my knowledge of Christ and his teachings are always increasing. If you don't study and learn about something every day, how can you know more about it than someone who does.

In the same vein, I would never try to throw "holes" that I may see in someone's belief in their face because I probably wouldn't have the same amount of knowledge that they would.

Finally, if you're trying to show someone that your "way" is the best way, then exposing holes and being self-righteous isn't gonna win any converts, it's just gonna make people get ticked off. You should let your life be a ministry. God is not a god of condemnation, but salvation.


I think I've caused a bit of a misunderstanding here. How was I acting self-righteous? All I said was "But surely exposing a hole in the reasoning to justify their belief is just as effective and cuts out the middleman". It was just a comment about debate tactics (and, I note, no-one jumped on Kef for talking about the very same thing in the first place). As I said, you're correct in saying that what I perceive to be a hole may, in fact, be fully supported by a good argument, but I'm never going to find out if that's the case if I don't bring it up, and until it's explained, I treat it as a hole.

And if exposing holes in another's argument isn't going to win any converts, what do you suggest?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:12 pm 
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Upsilon said:
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And if exposing holes in another's argument isn't going to win any converts, what do you suggest?


I think you should lay off that topic for a while because poking holes in someone's relgion is sure to start a fight and start bad feelings which I nor a bunch of people want rember whay we are here, to break down all the bigger walls of different religions and make it so that all people can be understood better no matter what religion they come from.

Upsilon said:
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explain why a god of eternal love unto us would leave anyone strapped to the rock.


But it's your choice if you want to be saved or not, if you are dead set on being saved and you are reading the bible everyday and going to church fellowships then depending on if you are really being truthful to God through and through that you want to give your life to him the you are going to be saved and never worry about where you go after you die again(at least theoritcaly). If you don't choose to do that and you are just living you life then you are messing up day by day and if you die like that you better like the heat. The first rule to getting saved in my church is you have to help yourself before God can help you so you have to be completely truthful to the lord and then he will help you get into the "Lamb's Book Of Life"(my church's way of saying get into haven guest book)

Have anyone else heard of the "Lamb's Book of Life" or is that just me?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:15 pm 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
Upsilon said:
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And if exposing holes in another's argument isn't going to win any converts, what do you suggest?

I think you should lay off that topic for a while because poking holes in someone's relgion is sure to start a fight and start bad feelings which I nor a bunch of people want rember whay we are here, to break down all the bigger walls of different religions and make it so that all people can be understood better no matter what religion they come from.

Prof. Tor Coolguy, please leave the moderating of the forum to the moderators.

Upsilon has done nothing wrong and should in no way feel as if he should stop posting to this thread. He has only posted in what I believe to be good faith, and should feel free to continue doing so.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:06 pm 
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If I am moderating I'm sorry but I just don't want things to get nasty,we've gotten so far now that it would be a shame if a fight were to break out and leave people angy. In summation I'll try not to do that anymore.

I also didn't tell him to stop posting just to lay off that topic because it's rude to poke holes in what people beleve in.

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Last edited by Prof. Tor Coolguy on Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Didymus wrote:
I may be too lazy in not going back and reading the whole thread again, but I'm curious to know what hole he's talking about. It may be that what looks like a hole to him doesn't look anything like a hole to us. Who sets the rules on what constitutes a hole and how it should be handled?


I don't think he was talking about any specific holes there. But for your information, I think this started when fahooglewitz and I started debating about homosexuality and I pointed out potential errors in his argument.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:30 pm 
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For people just tuneing in:There's a debate on about if God loves us so much then why do people go to hell?

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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
For people just tuneing in:There's a debate on about if God loves us so much then why do people go to hell?


Erhm, no it's not. Maybe you should flip back a few pages and read again.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:36 pm 
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The current debate(between me and Upsilon)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:03 am 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
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And if exposing holes in another's argument isn't going to win any converts, what do you suggest?


I think you should lay off that topic for a while because poking holes in someone's relgion is sure to start a fight and start bad feelings which I nor a bunch of people want rember whay we are here, to break down all the bigger walls of different religions and make it so that all people can be understood better no matter what religion they come from.


Well, the fact is, if you don't want to have "holes poked in your religion", you shouldn't take part in a religious debate.

Quote:
Quote:
explain why a god of eternal love unto us would leave anyone strapped to the rock.


But it's your choice if you want to be saved or not, if you are dead set on being saved and you are reading the bible everyday and going to church fellowships then depending on if you are really being truthful to God through and through that you want to give your life to him the you are going to be saved and never worry about where you go after you die again(at least theoritcaly). If you don't choose to do that and you are just living you life then you are messing up day by day and if you die like that you better like the heat. The first rule to getting saved in my church is you have to help yourself before God can help you so you have to be completely truthful to the lord and then he will help you get into the "Lamb's Book Of Life"(my church's way of saying get into haven guest book)


Our choice it may be, but ultimately, anything that happens has to be allowed to happen by God, surely? I don't have to help myself before God "can" help me, because presumably, he "can" do anything, which I presume includes saving me from Hell - which, if he loves me so much, he should do.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:34 am 
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I hear that once the rapture comes that then will come the only time for people who truely honist to God and deserved to go to heven in the first place but either died in their sin or wern't saved.

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Upsilon wrote:
Our choice it may be, but ultimately, anything that happens has to be allowed to happen by God, surely? I don't have to help myself before God "can" help me, because presumably, he "can" do anything, which I presume includes saving me from Hell - which, if he loves me so much, he should do.


I think that you're forgetting that there is a devil, who controls the non-believers. And ask yourself this: Why would a God, who gave his Son for believers, save people who do not believe. He wants you to be saved, but that utimately is your decision.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:54 am 
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Upsilon wrote:
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Our choice it may be, but ultimately, anything that happens has to be allowed to happen by God, surely? I don't have to help myself before God "can" help me, because presumably, he "can" do anything, which I presume includes saving me from Hell - which, if he loves me so much, he should do.

He could, but why should he? The way you make it sound, God MUST because he CAN, and somehow his love is supposed to completely override his justice. Maybe the plain and simple truth is that he doesn't love everyone the same. "Jacob I love, Esau I hated."

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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
I think that you're forgetting that there is a devil, who controls the non-believers.


Guys, you're retreading territory that we've already covered and a half in the Can God Be? thread. Take the discussion over there, and take some time to catch up.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:56 am 
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For once I agree with "Mr. Look-at-me-I've-got-1000-posts-whoop-te-do!"

From now on, this thread is for people to talk about their own religions, not to argue against other people's beliefs or try to prove God doesn't exist. The Great 1000-Posts has spoken!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:00 am 
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BTW, I have officially completed my first unit of clinical pastoral training :eekdance: at the Jefferson Barracks VA Medical Center, where I worked mostly with recovering addicts. Starting next quarter, I'll be at Lutheran Senior Services, Laclede Groves Assisted Living Center.

"Finished my CPE Unit" dancin' time! Image

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Last edited by Didymus on Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:42 am 
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Didymus wrote:
BTW, I have officially completed my first unit of clinical pastoral training :eekdance: at the Jefferson Barracks VA Medical Center, where I worked mostly with recovering addicts.


Congrats man!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:20 am 
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Thanks, D-7. I feel it is a real accomplishment. Even more so than getting my M-Div last quarter. I really liked working in the Dom; I learned a lot. I'll miss my patients, the staff, and my fellow CPE students.

Now if I can just survive another 9 months, I'll be set.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:22 am 
Um, to whoever said something about Jesus being born in the Spring, it says somewhere that he was born on the 25th of a some Hebrew month. That month is commonly associated with December.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:59 am 
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Most scholars agree it was in the spring (and a few years before 1 A.D.)


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