Doom:
You could learn a thing or two from DJ Soul Camel about how to make a point.
DJSC:
I have thought about some alternatives, just as you suggested. Here's a couple that come to mind:
1. Leave the Hebrews at the mercy of the Egyptians, so the Egyptians could continue to oppress them and slaughter their children.
2. Kill the Egyptians themselves. But then, wouldn't that still leave the children to starve?
3. Rescue the Hebrews in such a way that no one knew it was him doing it.
Here's part of the problem: the main point of the Exodus is not God reaching out to all people, but him selecting for himself a certain people, in this case a people oppressed by another nation. But the goal of all his work in this was to reveal himself as the one true God. This meant that all other competing gods had to be humiliated in both the eyes of the Hebrews and the Egyptians. Each of the Ten Plagues was meant to demonstrate God's power over and above all the gods of Egypt.
This included Pharaoh. Pharaoh, whose title was "First Born of the Gods," also needed to be humiliated. Pharaoh himself and the people of Egypt needed to see that Pharaoh was no god at all. It seems that Pharaoh's heart was hardened both by God and by himself, so I'm not so sure things would have turned out differently, even if Pharaoh had complete free will.
But as to that. The Egyptians had already been guilty of oppressing the Hebrews for 400 years. Whether God hardened Pharaoh's heart or not, they deserved the Plagues by their brutal treatment of the Hebrew people.
Now why the children? Keep in mind, no age range is given in this narrative. Some might have been babies. Others might have been as old as 30 (though I doubt much older than that, though you never know). Why the firstborn son? Because in the ancient world, the firstborn was the heir and represented to the family a continuation of the family line. Not only that, but Pharaoh claimed to be Firstborn of the Gods. The Plague of Death was meant to prove that Pharaoh had no power over life or death, that even the so-called Firstborn was powerless. (Curious - I wonder why Pharaoh himself didn't die? Maybe the Plague only struck those firstborn whose fathers still lived?)
Had the Egyptians themselves been struck, they would have indeed been paid back for their oppression, but they wouldn't have seen it. They would have been dead, and their family lines continued in the heirs that survived. But by striking the firstborn, the pain of what they had inflicted on the Hebrews (in killing their children) was made real to them.
Now the children themselves? Their lives were over. Whether they went to heaven or hell is not addressed here, and since we do not know their fate in that regard, I cannot comment on it. But they were spared being raised by racist parents and being taught to oppress.
But here's part of the problem, too. And, no, this isn't part of some grand theodicy, but a simple recognition of the way things are. God, as the Lord of Life, is the one with power over life and death. I believe that because, on more than one occasion, he raised the dead. What does this mean? Like it or not, God is the one who causes all death. Now don't get me wrong. Death exists because mankind failed and continues to fail. But everyone dies. The times and places are set by God. And death is death. When a person dies, it does not matter whether it is at 1 day or 100 years, their life is over. Period.
So when my cousins premature daughter died, God was the one who set that in place. Now do I tell her, "God killed your child," no. Does she feel that way? I know she does. For almost a year, she wasn't able to go to the church where her child was buried. But since it was the Lord who gave her life, it was also the Lord who took that life.
I know that sounds horrible. But the Bible does say that God appoints the times. It also says that, when we die, it is because he requires our soul from us. So in a very real sense, the God of Life is also the God of Death. Life is a precious gift from God, but it is not ours to keep; we all must one day give it back.
So why death? Why death at all? Why do we have to watch as our loved ones suffer from old age? Or from cancer? Or just die suddenly? Why aren't human beings built to last? Why must we endure loss and separation?
For the Hebrews and the Egyptians, it was to reveal himself by choosing for himself a people, and to show that he is willing and more than able to fight for them. This is part of the difficulty with this thread: what we Lutherans call "the scandal of particularity," i.e., that God actually chooses a certain people, and not all people, to be entrusted with his Word. In those ancient days, it was the Hebrews. Today, it is those of us who follow the faith of Abraham, who trusted God and was justified by his faith. Why the Hebrews and not the Visigoths? Why Christians and not Hindus? The scandal of particularity: Narrow is the way and few find it.
And yet this was to reveal himself, both to the Hebrews and the Egyptians. God's highest purpose for people is that they should come to know him. Good works (i.e., loving your neighbor) is second, but it is the first that is most important. The first three Commandments (or four, depending on your preferred numbering system) is God telling us, "I made you so that you could know me." That's another key point in this thread: that God wants people to know him. Yes, he wants us to be good and decent folk, too. But his primary concern is that we come to know him.
So in the Exodus, what did the Hebrews need? They needed a God who would fight for them when they were unable to fight for themselves. What did the Egyptians need? To see that they were not the godlike people they thought they were, that in relation to the True God, they were as powerless as the Hebrews were in their hands.
Do I like that God caused the death of children (I am of course operating under the same assumption, that at least SOME of those firstborn were small children)? The answer is, no. Are there other things that God has done that I don't like? Absolutely. I haven't shared this with anyone on this thread before (except a very few trusted ones), but I almost didn't become a minister. I almost failed seminary. At the time, I felt like God had abandoned me, even though, in my mind anyway, I kept confessing that he had not. What I discovered, though, was that I was angry at God. And in fact, the only way I was able to overcome that anger was to rage at him. So, there I was, as my ministry supervisor watched, and I hurled a Kleenex box at the cross on the wall. I picked it up again and again, and hurled it again and again at the very image of my dying Savior, cursing him in my heart. At the end, I looked with sorrow at the cross, and it was as if I heard God tell me, "Tom, I know you're angry. I'd rather you have the guts to tell me." And then later, as I wept outside of the Chapel of St. Timothy and St. Titus, he said to me, "I took whips, chains, thorns, nails, and a spear for you. I took the pains of hell for you. I can take a Kleenex box easily."
God put his finger on my life that day, and he answered my prayer. He healed me of many deep wounds I had in my life. Not painlessly, mind you, and some of them still hurt, but at least they are beginning to mend. What I learned was the same lesson Pharaoh had to learn: that I am not in control here. That's yet a third issue that I've identified in this thread: we so often want to think we're in control when we're not.
I remember the story of Job. The man lost his family, his life's savings, his home, his wife, and his health. Why? Because the devil challenged God to a bet. The friends of Job tried to comfort him with their belief that God couldn't possibly do such a thing to a righteous man, so Job must have done something awful to deserve it. In the depths of his anguish, Job challenged God himself to a fight. Then God showed up. He promptly reminded Job, "I'm the Creator. You're the creature. I'm in charge here, not you." But then, oddly, God commends Job for his faith and rebukes Job's friends for their faulty theology!
I confess to you, Camel, that I have played the part of Job's friend in this thread, trying to justify God with theodicy, when really all I needed to do was simply let him be who he is. You have been more like Job than I have; at least you were willing to challenge him for the wrong he committed. I commend you for that, but I'd also challenge you to take it up with him. Challenge him, just as you've challenged me. Don't worry, you won't get hit with any lightning bolts (at least I didn't back then). But I think he prefers that people have the guts to challenge him openly.
What's more, as I stated in a previous post, God knows that pain of losing a child himself. He loses a child every time someone denies him and turns away from him. He loses a child every time someone rationalizes him away. What's more, he lost his own Firstborn on the cross. So while the pain the Egyptians had to endure was so immense, God has felt that pain himself.
Now was there some ultimate good to come from that horrible tragedy? Yes. The Hebrews became God's people, and they in turn revealed him to all the nations. Just as God told Abraham when he first chose him, "You will be a blessing to all nations." What's more, from the Israelites came the Messiah, the one who would ultimately reconcile the whole world to God, which (at least I like to think) includes those children who died in the Plague. Death, while still present, no longer has ultimate power; it has been conquered by the cross and the empty tomb.
So, to sum up, I have identified a few key themes in this thread:
1. The Scandal of Particularity - that God is an exclusivist. He actually does choose certain people to enjoy his benefits (at least initially - his goal in doing so is that these people in turn will share those benefits with others).
2. God's chief purpose for mankind is that people come to know him. Good works are important, but they are secondary to knowing him. Unless we come to know him, we cannot fulfill our purpose in this life.
3. The human condition of powerlessness before God. Ramrod uses the term, "basically evil," but I prefer the term "powerless" because I think it better sums up the problem. Whether what we suffer in this life is our fault or not, the main point is we have no control to change the consequences. We can either trust God and let him, or we can continue to resist him to our detriment.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I've been really busy lately.
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) If i flipped a coin 9,999 times and i claimed that every one of them was heads you would say that i was a fool. Yet, there are trillions of "coins" that had to be "flipped", all heads, in order to make the Earth an inhabittable place in evolution. This chance is impossible. Therefore, there had to be a grand artist behind it all, making everything to direct specifications so that we dont burn up, freeze, or have a day long life span. If this is true, then it is possibole for there to be a supernatural realm(hell, heaven) that directly effects the scientific realm, on a second-by-second basis, that can be duely-interpreted and such.
I will rebutt you coin statement along with DJ Soul Camel. Also the coins aren't flipped at all with intelligent design.