I have the faith and trust to know that the boat of Christianity shall never sink. That's what Christianity is about: faith and trust in God the Father, God the Son, and God in the Holy Ghost.

And you assumed earlier in your post.

K, then I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.

So, we (at least Didymus and I) have asked others in this thread what they want us to do for them. No I ask, what do you want The Trinity to do for you?

Yeah, I know what you said. Make him known to you. But you've ignored: He has made Himself known to you through every true Christian that has ever touched your life. Especially now, on this thread, when we are explaining it all to you, and giving you the oppurtunity to know Him.

I'd have to disagree with you both on that. Speaking to God and letting him take control of your life is what gives you a relationship with Him, thus saving you.

You don't seem to get it: Christianity is not about going to a building to listen to a sermon. It's about believing and trusting in the Lord our God and Father, who loved us so much that he sent his one and only son, who was perfect, down to Earth to become a servant, and die on a cross, all to clear the gap between us and Him.

Here we go again: ignoring all we have been telling you, all that True Christians have given you. You can. but it seems you don't want to. If you want to be devoured by the sharks of hell, that's fine. I won't stop you. But if you want to live, and not only live, but live with your Father, get back in the boat and trust him. It doesn't matter what you believe he did to you in the past, just have trust that he won't harm you. If you come to Him, you will have enough faith that you won't even be afraid of dying.

Like I said, I have the faith to know that the boat of Christianity will never sink. If you call faith absurd, then I once again say: I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.

And of course, whoever believed in that religion would automatically go to oblivion.

Which is...?

It's just that the large magority of religions in the world are either small cults, large cults, or large, formatted religions, that are one step away from being cults, (including some unnamed ones that say "jesus" is their god) or tell their patrons to kill all unbeleivers. Christianity is the most scientifically, ethically, and logically refuteable in the lot. Therefore, making it logical that Christianity's "boat" won't sink, and the rafts will sink.

Cite one or more instance of this, in detail, then i'll analyze that.

So, you consider trying, and failing, to dissprove something that is older than eternity itself, arguing that the death's of millions of maryters were useless, and trying to prove a religion that will teave us in a enternal sate of unconciousness if true... ETHICAL?

Well, the most obvious one is that you think God doesn't exist, but if you have an opinion, throw it in the public square for appraisal.

What I meant was that you can't have a relationship with God, and be able to speak with him. I speak to him every day, and he speaks to me. The only tangible, verbal relation between the unsaved and God are his followers, who speak back and forth to him every day.

My mom was saved in college due to her roomate praying for a new teacher in her physics class...

...and the next day, the guy was transfered, previously unnanounced to students.

This proves my point about you being superficial. It's only three hours. I don't think it'll kill you.

If you think that Christianity is listening to some old man talk for 45min to an hour, you don't know what Christianity is.

Also, remember life is useless.

See my thing on your ethics.

I noticed you didn't quote my, "How to Get Saved", speach. Through what I wrote, you can come in. You were never blocked, maybe by your pride, but not by God.

Now THAT is absurd.

Take it against us then. Let it out if it's apparently going to bring us to our knees.

But isn't that the principle behind faith? Believing without seeing?

What about atheists who have "touched my life"? When a Christian does something remarkably benevolent it's a miracle of faith. When an infidel does it, it doesn't count because it doesn't help your argument. Correct?

Okay, say I'm not a church-going Christian (and most are, in my experience). There are still rules of the religion I'd have to adhere to which could spoil my enjoyment of life. For example, say I'm gay (which I'm not, but some people are). If I was to turn to Jesus, I would never be allowed to have sex in my life; if I remained atheist, I would not be denied that pleasure.

Also, I note you disregarded the bit about "integrity". Do you think I'd feel good about lying to everyone about what I believed throughout my life? About as good as you'd feel telling everyone you were a Satanist. Whereas I'd be much more comfortable being able to express my true views.

1. Christianity is true. (Assumption.)
2. God exists. (From 1.)
3. God can do anything that is not a contradiction (like devising a task he can't do). (From 1.)
4. God loves every single one of us and would do anything to keep us from Hell. (From 1.)
5. This god sends all who do not believe in him to Hell. (From 1.)
6. God does not like the fact that infidels are going to Hell and would prevent it if he could. (From 4.)
7. God does not prevent this. (From 5.)
8. Therefore, God cannot prevent this. (From 4 and 5.)

Contradiction between 3 and 8. Therefore, premise 1 must be false.

If I may say so, that sounds like a very Chick-esque conversion - by which I mean the type where Christian A mentions Jesus, then Infidel-who's-never-heard-of-Christianity-in-their-life-before B asks them for more information about this Jesus person. This type of conversion is, of course, very rare.

And yet the vast majority of Christians subject themselves to this, allegedly because their faith requires it.

Ah. Might you be one of those people who believes morality can only come from belief in God?

I reiterate for clarity's sake: I have never received anything which is in any clear way a message from God. I have received relatively unlikely coincidences and brief feelings of a vague happiness, but nothing that can not be very easily attributed to statistics and natural phenomena. No-one who tells me that I have received such messages has any authority to judge what I do and don't think.

Do your parents know your atheists?

Now before you jump on me and say "What about atheists or murderers or others who are 'made that way'?", well, those things are choices that people make, not God.

Specifically with number 3...there really isn't anything God can't do, according to Christian doctrine...

also in 6 - God doesn't like the fact that "infidels" are going to hell, you're right, but His "prevention", so to speak is His sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus.

But I don't think that just because God doesn't prevent people from going to hell means that He can't prevent it. I mean, come on, would you wanna spend eternity with someone who doesn't like you?

Okay - I'm curious - what would you consider as a clear message from God? An angel? Then you'd have people throwing you in the loony bin! They'd never believe you saw an angel.

Upsilon, I just want to end this by saying that I genuinely enjoy having these debates with you. Your arguments are well thought out, and you don't resort to mudslinging, so just in case it needs to be said, I'm not condemning you for your beliefs. I am simply addressing some of the things you've said.

What if christianity isn't the true religion? What if it is the "Church of Spongebob" or the "Jedi Knight" or the "Strong Sad is the devil" religeons?

Would the non-believers go to a "hell"?

Or what if the athiests are right? What if your body just decomposes into the ground?

Here's the problem with your argument, Upsilon. As usual, you operate on the assumption that if God wants something, he's obligated to make it happen. You simply ignore the fact that, just like us, God is also a person. It's not necessarily that God cannot save someone without faith, but rather that there's no reason he should. If a person wants no relationship with him, there comes a point at which God will no longer pursue it. Think about it like this: if you were married to a woman you loved, but was constantly cheating on you, wouldn't you eventually get sick of it and tell her to get lost? The same is true with God. He is merciful, but with those who continue to be unfaithful to him, he will finally just get rid of them.

Is anybody here a Lutheran? J/W

Evin:

More like he doesn't acknowledge any obligation to God. As we are all God's creatures, we all have obligation to him whether we realize it or not.

But how is that fair? If one is married but doesn't know that, could one be charged with adultery? I think what Upsilon is saying is that he has to know he's married before anyone can charge him with adultery.

But how is that fair? If one is married but doesn't know that, could one be charged with adultery? I think what Upsilon is saying is that he has to know he's married before anyone can charge him with adultery.

Evin, there is such a thing as taking a metaphor too far.

Yes, but still, if he doesn't know any obligation to God, why should he be obligated? He's arguing that Just because you're telling him that he has a obligation, doesn't make it true.

Here's the problem with your argument, Upsilon. As usual, you operate on the assumption that if God wants something, he's obligated to make it happen.

You simply ignore the fact that, just like us, God is also a person. It's not necessarily that God cannot save someone without faith, but rather that there's no reason he should. If a person wants no relationship with him, there comes a point at which God will no longer pursue it. Think about it like this: if you were married to a woman you loved, but was constantly cheating on you, wouldn't you eventually get sick of it and tell her to get lost? The same is true with God. He is merciful, but with those who continue to be unfaithful to him, he will finally just get rid of them.

As for this lack of evidence: there's been plenty of evidence. It's just that you claim it's not credible. That's your problem, not his. And just like with that husband with the unfaithful wife, he's not exactly under any obligation to give you anything to prove anything.

And, as I have already stated like two jillion times ever two jillion seconds, hell is the consequence of this broken relationship. If your argument is that God ought to find some other way to deal with those who refuse to be reconciled with him, then I must point out the simple logical flaw in your reasoning: the argument is basically that God should show mercy to those who reject his mercy. He should somehow make them get what they keep throwing away. If I kept sending you a present, and you kept telling the UPS guy to shove it, how is it my fault that you never got it?

So, in answer to your own circular argument:
1. God is not obligated to do anything for anybody.
2. Apart from forcing you, how do you expect God to give you anything when you keep refusing to accept it?

We've been showing God to him all over this thread, but he continues to say no one has ever done so.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

The same is true with God. Just because Upsilon, or anyone else for that matter, does not acknowledge any obligation to God does not mean he will hold him innocent.

And if that's not enough, I'm here as an authorized agent of this God, giving him notice of God's authority. Upsilon may not acknowledge my authority to do speak on God's behalf, but it still does not exempt him from obligations to God, any more than failure to recognize a policeman's badge exempts one from obeying the law.

1. Ignorance of an obligation does not exempt one from that obligation.
2. The created order itself is notice of God's authority.
3. God has sent authorized agents like myself to notify people of his authority.

1. Actually, I think he is. As you said, "just like us, God is also a person"; I see no reason why the fact that he created us separates him from moral obligations. And you wouldn't like it if I threw a brick at you then claimed it was my right to do so under a contract that I'd never told you about and which you hadn't signed. And then claimed that I was not obligated to tell you about this contract.

2. How do you expect me to give you this cheque for a jillion dollars if you keep refusing to accept it? ...oh, wait, you didn't know about the cheque? Fair enough, then...