Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Ja, and here's the flaw in your argument: you yourself testify that no-one can possibly deserve an eternity of perfect bliss. (I agree.) But wouldn't you agree, then, by exactly the same principles, that no-one deserves an eternity of absolute agony? And yet that is the default for infidels. And it's no more sensible to say "You're going to Hell unless..." than "You're going to Heaven unless..."

_________________
"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Good point, Upsilon. But here's the answer: hell is first and foremost to be understood as eternal separation from God. All the imagery of fire and brimstone is just that: imagery. The most common image of hell in the New Testament is that of "the Outer Darkness," where those who did not want to participate in the banquet must watch as those on the inside enjoy the feast.

C. S. Lewis had some interesting ideas about the nature of hell. In his thinking, hell is not so much a place but a condition. People who refuse to be cleansed and healed of their sins endure them for eternity. In other words, the sins themselves become the torment (for example, a sex addict might have to spend eternity burning with lust but completely unable to fulfill his desires).

So do they deserve that kind of torment? That's hard to say, but that is the consequence of being alienated from God. But it's not as though God entirely abandoned us to that fate; he provided a way out. He offers reconciliation and healing through his son Jesus. It is sad that people continue to refuse that healing.

So the essential question of this thread, the way I see it, is, "Must people who refuse to be reconciled with God be forced to suffer eternity apart from God?"

_________________

I aggree.

_________________

I disagree. The question of this thread is "Are all non-Christians going to hell?" Do you consider not being a part of the Christain religion as a "way of refusing to be reconciled with God"? I am Jewish. I might convert to Christianity sometime when I'm older. I might also convert to Islam, or Hindi, or anything else. I might stay the same, or I might completely lose all belief in God. But whatever, right now I'm Jewish. Are you saying that because I don't "accept" Jesus as my Lord and Savior, that I'm not to be reconciled with God? Because I don't believe YOUR religion, and because I follow a different one from YOU, am I instintaneously proven wrong? I'm sorry to go off on a rant about this one, Didymus. I'm sure it wasn't your intention to imply something like this, but I'd really like your answer to the question of the thread. Not your proposed "new" question, but the real question. "Are all non-Christians going to hell?" If you're part of a different religion from Christianity, are you automatically wrong? Is Christianity the only way to get into heaven?

_________________

this thread could well be something like "are all buhdists going to be reincarnated" or "do only jews go to the promiced land."
theyre retorical questions. there is no answer. the only way to find out is to die.

now: go kill your self to find out.
.....on second thoughts- no, dont . i dont wanna be sued for creating a mass suicide pact.

_________________

Ah, but I don't refuse to be reconciled with God. The offer has never been made, if you like.

_________________
"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Ok, I have a side to tell too. I was baptized as a Roman Catholic, and I went through the whole first communion, first confession, and confermation. But after that, my trips to the church on Sunday became less and less frequent. I don't find the appeal in going every week, so I choose not to. I'll go with relatives on hollidays once and awhile but thats the extent of it.

My family has partially adopted a child from another family who isn't well off and this child was going down a hard road quickly if he didn't get help from us. We take care of this child (he's 2 and a half) like he was our own and now is extremely smart and happy as a pig in mud.

In my eyes, my family looking after a child that needs it does much more for God then going to a mass any day, yet people like myself get labelled as untrue Christians.

My point is that there are many people that might not go to church regularly but are doing work for the lord in other ways (more useful in my eyes). Does this mean I'm not going to heaven because I don't go to church, or I am because I do this for this child?

_________________

If I may field this question on behalf of the Other Side...

I think (according to basic Christian doctrine) if you believe in Jesus and live your life according to the principles he laid down, and repent your sins, you'll go to Heaven.

Church isn't the most important aspect.

_________________
"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

^Actually, church isn't one of them. Nor is doing good deeds.

All you have to do is confess your sins and repent (sincerely)invite Jesus into your life, and then turn your life around.

The offer has always been there. And didn't you once tell me the story about how one day you decided you just couldn't believe? I really hate to point this out to you, but you have indeed rejected the offer. In fact, you continue to reject it every time you construct arguments against it. The offer is still there; God has not turned his back on you, even if you have turned your back on him.

You are right, though. Going to church isn't God's criteria, but it is an important part of what it means to be a Christian. Church is where we learn to grow in faith and are edified by the Sacraments. It's not necessary, but it is important.


Think about it like this, JumbleCaper: Church isn't something you do for God, but something God does for you. As a Roman Catholic, you must be able to appreciate the body and blood of Christ given to you in the Sacrament for the building up of your faith. That, too, is a gift from God. In fact, every opportunity to do good (such as taking care of that child, for which I commend your family) is a gift from God. But just so you're clear on exactly what it earns you, you might want to read this post again. And no, I'm not saying that you're going to hell. I'm only reiterating a point I made earlier, that people can only go to heaven because Christ died for us.

But I would also caution you, too, just as I did Upsilon. In other threads, you have seemingly argued against the Christian faith. Arguing against God's free gift amounts to rejecting it. I mean, if you don't believe in God to start with, then how can you claim you are entitled to his mercy?

_________________

wow, give a hand to didymus, that is what i have been trying to say. what i posted earlier is what i belive as a Guardian Of the Magi. i still belive in god, and belive that hell is Earth. no matter what happens to you in life, as long as you belive in A god, then you should go to a place like Eden when you die, no matter what ur religion, its your own religions eden. satanist go to the eden of hell, christians go to heaven, which is eden, jews go to their eden, and so on and forth. belive in what you want, as long as you dont kill, or break any of what your religion belives is wrong, ur going to eden.

_________________

I thank you for the compliment, but that's not what I've been trying to say at all. I know nothing about Guardian of the Magi, so I cannot comment on that, but my understanding as a Christian is that there is only one true God, and he does not want us worshipping shadows. The precise reason he doesn't want us worshipping shadows is because they do not benefit us; they only lead us further away from him. They add to our resistence to his mercy.

Think about it like this: if you were trapped in the desert, what would benefit you more, a mirage or real water?

_________________

NOW give a hand to Didymus...and to the post he keeps referencing, of course. That's also what I've been trying to say.

Okay, I feel that religion is a great thing for those that like it, but I have a few qualms (right word?") with it myself.

First I would like to talk about going to heaven or hell. Personally, I don't think that there's anything anyone can do here on Earth that would constitute living in an agony of Hell for eternity. If going to heaven or hell is based on how Christian you are or if you believe in Jesus, then isn't it a matter of chance? If you're born into a Christian family then you are much more likely to believe in God than one who was raised under atheist parents.

If its based on actions, then isn't it also a matter of chance? If you grew up in a well-standing caring neighborhood then wouldn't you probably develop better morals than one who, say, grows up in a really dangerous town. Plus, you'd have a much better chance of being corrupted and doing bad things with the wrong crowds in a crappy neighborhood.

Another thing is, how should we know to follow God? I mean, I haven't been given any proof that he exists and I'm supposed to just exclaim "I believe!" and follow a religion. There's a huge amount of religions out there in the world, and how am I supposed to know which one to just have faith in.

Anyways, I'm tired of talking about religion, off to the other topics!

_________________
"Sorry, musta got a toenail caught in my throat!"

I think that of all religions, the one with the most appealing Heaven (to me anyways) would have to be Norse. Not that I believe in the Norse mythology, but at Valhalla you were supposed to fight all day, and regardless of whether or not you get killed, you feasted all night. Though there is something kinda wonky about a religion where your main god ends up getting eaten by a wolf...

There is no proof of or against God, and will never be. We could not possibly percieve God with 3-dimensional senses. That's why we have religion; to help guide us through a universe of mysteries.

Here's a new outjet for the thread: What about people who've never been introduced to Christianity (half of the world, for example)? How are they judged in the afterlife? And what about the people who aren't sane enough to accept God?

_________________

171st POST ANNIVERSARY!!!

Hence the reason for Agnosticism.

Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if the concept of religion did not exist. I'm not saying if everyone was atheist, per say, but that the idea that some greater being created the universe never occured to anyone. Morals might be lower... but then again, that whole Crusades thing wouldn't have happened. Of course, something worse might have taken its place, but now I'm just rambling.

hmmm.... what if there is all one powerful god that takes the form of other gods in different religions?

_________________

I would like to point out a few things here. First of all, considering the very title of this thread, it seems that this question is primarily concerned with addressing Christian thoughts about this topic. And as a Christian, I can only offer the perspective I have on the subject.


In other words, can people who have never heard about Jesus reject or accept him? That I cannot answer. But I will say this: it certainly stands as a challenge to us Christians to get busy with the work of making disciples of the nations. At the same time, though, it also stands as an indictment against those who oppose the spread of that word. The issue for me is this: people who do not know God are alienated from him already. The only solution for this alienated condition is reconciliation. Asking how they are judged does not really help in understanding this.


Again, I cannot answer for them. I assume you mean primarily people who do not have the mental capacity to understand even the basic message of God's love for them in Christ. I work in a dementia ward, and many of the people there are barely able to articulate a coherent sentence, so I can certainly understand the concern. I have two answers: 1. Jesus does commend "the faith of a child." That is, faith should perhaps be better understood as trust, rather than theological aptitude. 2. We can always rely on the power of the Word to accomplish what God intended, even if we are unable to see the result. I have a third, which I am not sure all Christians can fully understand, and that is Sacramental Grace. God did promise to work through the Sacraments (particularly Baptism), and I do not believe that it is entirely dependent upon a person's understanding of what they are receiving.

You are right, though. There is no proof that God even exists. But just as with anything else in life, you will never be given a 100% absolute answer beforehand. It is a risk. But isn't that true with just about everything else in life? You ask a girl or a guy out, knowing full well there's always the chance they'll say no. You get in your car and drive, knowing full well there is at least a slim chance you might be in an accident. You buy an article of clothing, not sure whether it will fit you right after you wash it. You decide on a career, not knowing whether you'll be good at it until you are at least moderately trained for it. I could go on, but you get the idea. No, God doesn't prove his existence beyond doubt, but it is interesting that we don't place that kind of demand on anything else we encounter in life.

madefromthebeststuf, you might be right about it being up to chance. But not entirely. There are plenty of people in this world who have become Christians, even though their families weren't. There are also plenty of unbelievers in this world whose families were Christian.

In previous posts, I have pointed out that I am not sure that discussing who deserves what is very helpful at all. All I know is that, whether deserved or not, people are in a certain condition that leads one way or another. Those who are going to heaven most certainly do not deserve it, as most of them would say if you were able to ask them.

But I do have a thought about that: are you willing to try it? If there is a God, then he must care about anyone who in their hearts wanted to know him, even if they did not fully understand him. As I stated above, it's not a matter of knowing your theology perfectly, but of trusting in him who calls you. If you truly wish to find God, simply begin by admitting, "God, I don't know you, but I'd like to." I cannot say for certain (after all, I cannot foresee what resistences there might be later), but God might just show you the way to find him, if you are willing to follow where he leads.

In agnosticism, I see a kind of humility that is somewhat commendable. It is simply the realization that we do not have all the answers. But there is this danger: it also does not lead anywhere. Leaving an offer on the table indefinitely doesn't accomplish any more than outright rejecting it. I am convinced that true humility is the realization that we are helpless before God, and that we simply do not deserve the gift he has to offer us. The race of humanity is already alienated and estranged from God. God has already done all that can be expected of him to reconcile that broken relationship. I do not think we can or should demand more.

_________________

okay, give a hand to Didymus again!(Or else this time!((Shakes fist angrilly)) dude, OFF TOPIC: u could be a visionary like i suggested to whats her face. BACK ON TOPIC: belive what u guys want, i belive what i want, u beleive what u want, in the end, we all end up in our own eden.

_________________

Dude you are starting to act like edgar. Do you want to end up like edgar? I am not rying to be a mod just giving you fair warning.

_________________

He's all ready been warned. And trust me, no-one's worse than Edgar.

BOT
Even though I'm a strict (to a point) Catholic, I see no reason why a Jew or a Bhuddist or a Muslim, or even an Athiest (irony?) shouldn't be able to get into Heaven. As long as you are a basically good human being, you will be eternally rewarded.

_________________

I think different religions have different ideas for life after death, not all agree that we go to heaven.

_________________

Well, i'm saying this through my Christian perpective. That's the way I believe it, it doesn't mean that it's right though.

_________________

Here's a reason: Because God wants to have a relationship with us. Not dead works. That's why when your about to go to hell, God says, "Away, I never knew you." Think about it: "I never knew you." He wants a relationship with us.

Dingdingdingding! The nail has been hit right upon its haid.

The thing about this whole question is that chances are if your not Christian, the form of religion you are has there own plan for afterlife. Chances are that a Jewish man who hasn't lived a good life won't get sent to a Christian hell.

_________________

^Maybe all religions aren't true. And they aren't. I believe that both Judaism and Christianity are true. Thing is, no one can live a good life. Only Jesus, so he went to Heaven. If we believe, as in faith and trust and not just existence, we will go to Heaven.

Are you basing that on fact or opinion? Just wondering. I'd like to see a Pro-Christians view on that.

_________________

Fact.