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Do you need to be baptized to be accepted into heven? If so, or not, why?

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Credit for this avy-turned-sig goes to a friend from another forum named "Unknown" (no joke)

The Scriptures do teach that Baptism is a Sacrament for the forgiveness of sins, a washing of new life, a joining into Christ's death and resurrection through which we are given the Holy Spirit. However, while we are told that those who believe and are baptized will inherit Christ's kingdom, we are not told what fate (if any) would be for those who believe and are not baptized. From what I've gathered in Scripture, at least from what Christ and the apostles have told us, they seem to be saying that under normal circumstances there should be no such thing as an unbaptized believer.

That is why we Lutherans do not set any age restrictions on baptism. We encourage it as early as possible. We do not believe, as some claim, that you have to be 12 or 13 years old first. The Bible does say, "This promise is for you and your children."

So if your question is, "If a believer dies before he is baptized, will he go to hell?" my answer is: we trust that the Lord, who brought that person to faith through his Holy Word, will sanctify him into new life in the resurrection.

On the other hand, if your question is, "Is Holy Baptism a mere symbolic ritual that we can do without?" then my answer is an emphatic NO! It remains a holy sacrament for the benefit of God's Church on earth, and no one should ever treat it as anything less than God's own sacred work.

And further, if your question is, "What happens to someone who was baptized but then renounced Christ?" then my answer is: the same thing that happens to anyone who does not believe. They end up missing out on the sacramental benefits of being baptized.

And if you ask, "Should a person who leaves the faith (or changes churches) be rebaptized?" I say no. All Christians stray from their faith, even if only a little. And we do it all the time. But for those who return to the faith, the sacramental grace never left them. It was in fact sacramental grace that brought them back (along with the other works of the Holy Spirit).

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It's against the rules but whatev. I wholeheartedly agree with this, I was confused by how you worded this earlier. But there is one thing, If you beleive, then denounce, you are still saved. Nothing can tear anything, or anyone from God.

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Credit for this avy-turned-sig goes to a friend from another forum named "Unknown" (no joke)

And you can back this up with Scripture? I've heard it before, but there's nothing to show it in Scripture.

As a matter of fact, you might want to look at this passage in Hebrews:

According to this passage, it is not only possible for someone to fall away, but also very dangerous.

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Actually, after I posted, I looked up the subject and found that I was in error.

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Credit for this avy-turned-sig goes to a friend from another forum named "Unknown" (no joke)

I'm not sure if they mean exactly that, but here are some verses

John 10:28-29

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

John 6:37-40

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well, mant Catholic say that you not only do you need a babtism, but you need to be a Catholic to get into Heaven. But I personally don't believe that. This is just me talking, and I'm no clergy member, but I believe that if you're a basically good person, you'l get into Heaven.

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Grammar Ramrod grammar. I was baptised both Catholic and Protestant. I don't think it is needed to get into heaven.

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But really, who's to say that one is right and the others are wrong? Well...besided God....

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I'll put it this way: Baptism is necessary for a Christian life, but not absolutely necessary to receive God's mercy. But under normal circumstances, it is the normal way God works salvation in the life of a believer.

As for the Catholic vs. Protestant tension: both groups baptize in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It's not who administers the rite that makes is a true baptism, but the water and the holy Name of the Triune God. It annoys me how some churches claim that other churches' baptisms are not valid for different reasons. For example, some Catholics (not all--I actually work with a couple of RC's out at the nursing home) believe that only baptism administered by an RC priest is valid. This, of course, is contradictory to Vatican II, which recognizes all Christians and their baptisms.

The same with some Protestants. They claim that Catholics are not true believers and therefore discount their baptisms. I do not agree with this.

My rule of thumb is this: if water is used in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then it is a true baptism and shouldn't be argued about.

About the John passages:

They do say that no one can take a believer out of God's hands. However, it does not say that a believer cannot flee God on his own. I.e., outside forces cannot come between us and God, but our own internal wills can.

The second passage is about those who believe. The whole point is that, if someone renounces God, then they no longer believe and are no longer within the scope of the promise. As Christians, we have nothing to fear. Once we cease to be Christians (i.e., go astray from our Shepherd), then we are in danger. Christ does not cast us out, but we cast ourselves out.

So neither of these is a cut-and-dry proclamation of the traditional "once-saved, always-saved" doctrine. The Hebrews passage, as well as the passage in I Corinthians about the immoral brother handed over to Satan, seem to indicate that it is possible for a believer to fall away and endanger himself.

So what do you do when you see a Christian friend suddenly renounce his faith and decide he wants nothing to do with God? Some might say he was never saved to begin with. I'm not sure that's helpful, particularly since I cannot see into his heart to determine the true state of his prior faith. All I can do in that circumstance is to recognize the danger he's in and pray that he will be rescued from it.

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Well, if you are a true Christian, you probably will not renounce your faith. I did believe in "Once saved always saved" for my whole life. But now I'm not so sure after reading what you said and these websites:
http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas1.html
http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas2.html
http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas3.html

EDIT: Actually just go to http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/index.html and read as much as you want. There are like 60 different pages.

100th post!

(in respose to ast didymus post)
All baptisms are valid, but only for the purpose of an increased connection with Christ. Not to imcrease your "saved-ness."

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Credit for this avy-turned-sig goes to a friend from another forum named "Unknown" (no joke)

But what about religions that don't give Babtisms? Does that mean that they are automatically going to Hell?

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I think that issue is being debated here.

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Those Christian religions that teach that Baptism is not important are not teaching the Scriptures rightly. They are mistaken in ignoring and marginalizing the sacrament and the grace available through it. At the very least they are robbing themselves of sacramental grace, and in my book that's not a good thing in any case. It doesn't mean that they are going to hell necessarily, but you have to wonder why it is they choose to ignore the Lord's own words regarding this sacrament.

Alehandro, the Bible does say that Baptism saves. As stated above, there should be no such thing as an unbaptized Christian. But those Christians who are baptized do receive salvation, cleansing, forgiveness, reconciliation, and new life through the sacrament. So, in a very real sense, Baptism does incread your "saved-ness."

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Bu I was talkng about non-christian religions Didman.

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To which I will reply: see the thread we already have discussing that topic.

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Actually, it says quite the oppisite. Consider the man next to Jesus during his cruxafiction, he beleived without baptism or sacraments, which isn't grace. And what did He say?

Fairly straight forward.

Also, baptism wasn't instated untill John the baptist, so therefore, Moses and Abraham should be in hell, right?

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Credit for this avy-turned-sig goes to a friend from another forum named "Unknown" (no joke)

(1) the man on the cross was given a specific promise by Christ himself.
(2) why do you claim that the Sacraments are not means of grace? I think you are mistaken on that point. The Scriptures themselves testify:













That was not what I was arguing at all. The Old Testament saints are saved by the same grace that saves us. Only now, for us, that grace is found in part through Holy Baptism.

The same goes for that thief on the cross. To read Jesus' direct promise to him as a blanket denial of baptismal grace is to ignore a great portion of Scripture.

I would caution you about denying the grace available to us through the Sacraments. The Scriptures clearly teach that the Sacraments are means of grace (i.e., ways in which grace is given to us). The Scriptures tell us that, in Baptism, our sins are washed away, we recieve the gift of new birth, our sins are forgiven, and we are joined to Christ's death and resurrection, so that in a very real sense, we too die and rise from the dead.

I used to be part of a denomination that denied sacramental grace. They claimed that the Sacraments were merely simbolic acts. Then I actually read the Scriptures and discovered that the Bible actually says the exact opposite, that Baptism in particular is in fact a means of grace. It's all there in the Scriptures.

I'm not arguing that unbaptized believers go to hell. However, I will argue that Bible-believing Christians ought not deny the power of sacramental grace, since sacramental grace is clearly taught in Scripture.

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You know I respect ya, Earl o' Didymus. Very tentatively, though, I also think your language regarding those who've shied away from the church is a bit misleading. I've always been under the impression that all you need to be saved is simply to believe that Christ is the son of god, that he died for our sins, and to accept him into your heart. (Edit: I'm not speaking of those who, for instance, have decided to follow the tenets of another religion, but rather those who have been a little reticient or doubtful about their beliefs, or who have, say, leaned toward placing them on the back burner for some deeper thinking.)

I'm thinking about Romans 10:9 here: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That reads rather clear to me. Of course, as you've said, that's not to say that other features of the spirituality are not important -- for example, like you've said, baptism is a very spiritual guesture, but as far as I know, AND as you've said, it's not a penultimate requirement.

Of course, I am not as utterly-schooled in the religion as you are. My mum is, though, and she's always believed something along the lines above. Perhaps it's a denominational difference? I couldn't say for sure. (My usual conclusion on these sort of things.) Perhaps I misinterpreted you. I don't particuarly enjoy discussing this stuff, as you know, but I thought it merited a bit of a mention.

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OMG MY WEBSITE IS YOUR MOMMA!

I'm not Christian; I have no set religion, but I believe in God and Jesus and my religion is closely based on Christianity. God is merciful and loves all people, in my religious view, therefore, he would not bar the gates to heaven simply because you were not baptized. I do not go to church, I have been baptized but have not had a communion, and I believe that those people who CANNOT be baptized would not be prevented from going to heaven, so why would anybody? After all, God is portrayed as loving all souls and forgiving all sins, so I don't see why ANYBODY would go to Hell, except truly evil people such as Hitler.

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Yes, you do:

Mk.16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Rom.3:28
"A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

No, you don't:
1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work."

Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Perhaps, but:



...which renders quoting any specific Bible verse pointless.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

We're already discussing this topic elsewhere, but there are two flaws to your argument:
1. The Scriptures clearly teach that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by not being evil.
2. There is at least one scriptural account of someone as wicked as Hitler being saved: Saul of Tarsus, a horrible man who tortured and murdered Christians, was confronted by Jesus himself on the road to Damascus and struck blind. After regaining his sight, he became St. Paul the Apostle, a faithful servant of Jesus and one of the most important men in the history of Christianity.

The discussion here is specifically about whether baptism is necessary for salvation. There are some examples of people being saved apart from baptism, but this does not change the fact that baptism does save. That's where the problem is for me: there are some who, because they recognize God's mercy extended to those who could not be baptized, conclude that baptism is a mere symbolic ritual rather than a sacramental means of grace. The Bible clearly defines baptism as a Sacrament of salvation. Never once does it even hint that it is a mere metaphor or anything of the sort.

Your Majesty the Queen:

While I would agree that faith in Christ alone is sufficient, even for those who do not continue in the church, I would also point out that it is not God's intention that those who believe in him should separate themselves from his body. Christians have an obligation to themselves to gather together for corporate worship, the hearing of God's Word, and the administration of the Sacraments. At least according to Scripture, a Christian life looks like community. Participation in a community of worship is vital to the spiritual health of the Christian. A person who does not eat a balanced diet might survive, but they won't be as healthy as they could be. The same with Christians who do not participate in church: they might still get to heaven, but they won't have fulfilled the purpose for which God placed them on earth. How sad is that?

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Acts 2:38 says that we are to be baptized once we repent in the name of Jesus. I don't see how officially giving my life to Christ and asking Him to forgive me of my sins is different from repenting. Therefore, I believe people should be baptized when they have repented of their Sins and are entered into the New Covenant. Very young children don't sin, do they? Then why shouldn't they be baptized until they are ready?

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Yes, children do sin. Or have you forgotten the Scriptures?

and

Perhaps not in ways that are immediately observable to us who are watching them, but the reality is, yes, they do sin.

You might observe the point I made earlier. If repentance is to be understood in Acts 2:38 as a prerequisite for Baptism, then the conjunction would be ina rather than kai, and would be followed by a subjunctive rather than another imperative. It would read "Repent in order that you might be baptized." As it is, the kai can be understood just as easily as meaning, "Repent BY being baptized." But trying to take two imperatives, neither subordinate to the other, and make the first a prerequisite for the second is a shaky argument at best.

I contend that you are still basing your argument on your own personal religious experience, and not on the Scriptures.

But again, the questions I presented in the other thread were:
1. Is Baptism a means of grace?
2. If it is, then why should children be denied that grace?

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Yes, I concede so.

1. It is a symbol of grace, a proclamation of one's salvation.
2. At my home church, Colorado Community, we believe that to prepare for baptism (and in the case of the parents, dedication), one must be living a lifestyle "consistent with that of a full follower of Christ." Before each baptism, the pastor speaks of how each person came to Christ. In every case, the individual person made his or her own choice to accept Jesus into their life.

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Correction: not a SYMBOL of grace, a MEANS of grace. I do not recall the Scriptures ever speaking of what Baptism "symbolizes," only of what Baptism accomplishes.

While I appreciate that your church takes this event seriously, and teaches its people to do so, I'm still not sure how exactly that makes it so that small children should be excluded.

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Touché.

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I'm not theistic, but I think that if there was a god, it would be above sacrifice, worship, praying, etc. It would seem to me, that it would be very immature and even perverted to create something, just to have it kiss your *** over and over by telling you how wonderfull you are and how thankfull it is for existing. It would also get rather boring and even annoying after a while, don't you think?