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TOTPD

Not written? How about 1.here. And 2.here. And 3.here.

1) There is also an antitype which now saves us — baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

2) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

3)What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

So in the words of prophets: "baptism saves us", "he who is baptized will be saved", and "as many as were buried with Him through baptism will be raised".

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One thing everyone has to think of on this subject is,

What if you live in some third world country, and never even get a chance to hear about God?

Than it's not your fault. Won't God still give you a chance, baptized, Christian, or not?

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You're playing Team Fortess 2... you are a heavy and you have two medics... you are taking out everone on the other team so easy... another medic aproaches... THEN HE TURNS INTO A SPY AND STABS YOU IN THE SPINE!
SPY PWNS ALL!

What do the Scriptures actually say, SBemailman? I do not think it is either correct or safe to make that assumption.

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Well, that's basically been what I have been saying. How is it fair to someone that has never had the chance to have heard about Jesus?

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I'ma have to trust God on that. He said that if you look for Him, you will find Him. He also says that the gospel, the good news about Christ's resurrection, has gone out to all parts. And He doesn't allow for exception; He saves us all the same unique way. God will indeed give you a chance: if you seek, you are guaranteed to find. But it won't be your own special way. It'll be just like ever-body else.

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But how can you seek for something you don't know? If you find a remote tribe of some island that has never had contact with the rest of the world, I'm pretty sure that they will have never had heard of Jesus.

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Ramrod, I think apostle Paul disagrees; but only if you are implying that isolated islanders wouldn't know enough to know for certain that this creation is something beyond mortal creative ability. You can know something of God from creation alone; not enough to save you, mind, but something. God left evidence (11:1: "evidence" and 12:1: "throng of witnesses"). And He left delusion. The "love of the truth" is the key -- we must seek -- because of what evidence we have, we must seek. And the evidence left is enough to drive us to do it.

As for "not knowing Jesus" because of isolation -- apart from Paul's God-breathed words (that the gospel had gone out "to every creature" in his day), there is some compelling archeological evidence that Thomas made it to Peru... and others to India, Ethiopia etc.

And apart from all this. How powerful should we believe a creator God is, anyway? Can He make a copy of Acts float up on a remote shore? Can He bless an isolated islander with exceptional linguistic skills for reading? We know He wants all saved; how far is He willing to go?

And I guess too: this imperative "that all must know God" is pressure applied by God on Christians -- who love their families and friends, some of whom are lost -- to get those Christians to spread the word; to participate.

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Everyone
I have to say this discussion has been a pleasure for me; thank you all, and thank you Dids. It's been much more fulfilling than any of the other conversations I've had here in general. Getting "conversation" threads to go around more than twice actually dialoguing is rare apparently. Not to mention, I think the title here keeps hecklers out all by itself. So aside from a post or two on each cartoon and playing games, this "baptism thread" is the good stuff. And you all make it so.

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Around.

Anyway, that's just what I was taught. I know that baptism is a good thing to do whenever you first get saved, but if you aren't baptised, it doesn't mean that you aren't going to heaven.

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I didn't want to start a new topic while this one is here.
My parents raised me as a Christian, just like they raised my two siblings as Christians. It was never a choice, but a responsiblity to go to church on Sundays. Since, my brother and sister have both denied the church, and since they are living on their own, no longer attend.
Me, I still go to church because I have to. I don't believe that I am a Christian anymore, and I don't feel comfortable in church.
Especially now. Just last Sunday, the church's pastor's sermon was on Baptism, and how necessary Baptists think it is. After the sermon, during the invitational, he was calling out that whoever has been saved, and hasn't been baptized should come forward, and be baptized on the spot.
I was saved a long time ago, but like I said, have since fallen away. I was never baptized. Since the church keeps records of who is and isn't baptized, everyone knows that I am not baptized.
So after the service, our youth director comes up to me, and has a long talk with me, and is basically forcing me to get baptized. I'm not exaggerating at all. He was making it the most uncomfortabe situation that I have ever been in. I didn't know what to say to him. I never know what to say to people in church. I can't just blurt out that I am never coming back once I am out of the house.
So he's basically attacking me with this, trying to make the deal sound sweeter by proposing we set up a date for next week or something, and I just am (obviously) having none of it. Luckily, I was able to get away, without having to say much, or committing to anything.
But, he's going to be there for a while. I am going to see him every Sunday. He's going to continue pressuring me to do something I don't want to do.
And I can't tell my parents to let me stay home from church, because they wouldn't care. They never cared. Church is always first and can't be missed for any occasion. Knowing that they have "failed" with their first two kids, they are tryin extra hard on me, and it's just really making me feel really gross, and uncomfortable.
I know I've used uncomfortable a lot, but it's really the only way I can explain how I feel.
I don't know what to do. Is there anything I can do?

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Kevin, the church I was raised in likewise taught me that Baptism was a mere ritual that accomplished nothing. However, that teaching does not align with what the Scriptures actually say about the Sacrament. Take a look at those passages I cited, and I think you'll see what I mean (and that's only a sampling - there's actually quite a bit more). It's also one of the many reasons I left that church and became a Lutheran. I wanted to be among people who say what the Scriptures say on the subject.

While I will concur that under extreme circumstances - for example, in the case of that thief on the cross - then God does not require it. But under normal circumstances, the command is to be baptized, and the promises are connected with Baptism. So while it MIGHT be possible for a person to enter God's kingdom without Baptism, I cannot imagine why a Christian would want to rob themselves of the assurance of God's promises connected with the Sacrament.

Wesstarrunner said earlier in this thread that he is deliberately refraining from being baptized. That is willful disobedience to God's command, and I cannot consider a person living in willful disobedience to God's command a fellow Christian, despite what their confession of faith may be. A doctrine that says that Baptism is only an "outward sign" actually encourages that kind of disobedience.

Iki:

I cannot offer you any clear answer to your dilemma. On one hand, I wouldn't want you to miss out on the promises that accompany Baptism, but on the other hand, from what you're saying, you have no desire to be a member of God's family. That being the case, I can only suggest that you do what you feel is right for yourself. After all, Baptism apart from faith in Christ still brings condemnation (Mark 16:16), so at least you'll have some personal integrity if you do what you feel is right (even if it is ultimately wrong - because it would be less wrong that doing what others expect for the wrong reasons). In other words, if you are going to be baptized, to it for yourself, not everyone else.

But let me give you something to think about: why is it that you feel you do not wish to be a Christian? Is it the particular church your family belongs to, or is it the Christian faith in general? Do you think these might be something worth investigating?

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In addition to what Dids said in his note to you, I'd like to add that you may need to use this impulse as a drive to research. By that I mean: you are feeling a certain way -- not wanting to give in to your parents' wishes for whatever reason; RETORICAL QUESTION: why are you feeling this way? And what foundation is there for you to develop otherwise? Specifically, if you were able from the text of the Bible to demonstrate to your parents that being "Baptist" doesn't save ... well ... you'd know more from studying, and they'd have little to say against The Book they claim for authority.

Baptism
The Southern Baptist creed (Article.VII) says that baptism is for membership, not salvation. The American Baptist creed (item.14) says that "regeneration" must come before baptism. The Canadian branch just flatly states -- with some refreshing candor -- that baptism isn't for salvation -- that's anti-scriptural but its an open, debatable position at least. To the Reformed Baptist, faith saves and baptism strengthens (Ch.14.item.1). And the Baptist Bible Fellowship's creed says that baptism is a prereq to "priveleges of church relation" ("Of Baptism and The Lord's Supper") -- a membership requirement, then. The Freewill creed is a bit cagey and talks about "the exercise of saving faith" under item.8 without defining it too well. In short: creeds are long and generally bunk. Dig in to the Word itself, and you will find some rest (see the title of this paragraph, and a lot of the discussion that has already happened in this thread).

My barely obscured ulterior motive here is just this: if you study God's Word with an open heart, willing to accept evidence and research/dig -- evidence leads only one way -- to God.

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