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On Eating Meat...
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4034		 Page 8 of 10
Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:36 pm ]
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Mr. Sparkle wrote:
Mandy the Almost-Pirate wrote:
Well, as I recall, according to the Bible, animals were around before humans.
If humans came before animals, humans would be hungry.


No. If I recall correctly, food was plentiful in the Garden of Eden. Even if you don't believe in that, they could always eat plants and such.
Author:  Biscuithead [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:23 am ]
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As much as I respect opinions of vegetarians, I could never, ever stop eating meat. I have to eat it at least once a day, but usually twice or three times (lunch and dinner, sometimes breakfast too).
Also, my Mum once made a vegetarian dinner with absolutely no meat in it. My whole family were shocked and disgusted. Meat is delicious and there is no way I could ever eat another vegetarian meal.
If other ppl do it, good for them...
Author:  Mikes! [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:33 am ]
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I'm vegan unless it came out of the trash, and wasn't meat, and I decided that I need it. A lot of people call that "freegan," but I abhor that term.

I just can't really come up with a good reason for veganism because human exploitation (and therefore animal) is pretty much inherent in any sort of grocery-store food, except that I just find the idea of non-vegan food pretty gross after years of being a vegan. I'd rather curtail capitalist consumption than anything else. Plus, free food and adventure.
Author:  SEAN'D! [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:43 pm ]
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Yeah, I like to eat meat. I don't feel bad about eating meat. It's natural and it's good for you. I myself disagree with veganism especially.
You have your choices with what you want to do, but don't try and push others into becoming vegetarian.
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:17 pm ]
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Hm. A couple years back, I posted in this thread saying that I could never stop eating meat.

Look at me now. I'm a vegan.

If I were to go back in time and tell my past self she was fated to end up being a vegan, she probably wouldn't believe me. But it's easy for me to understand now. I can only think of one way a human could justify killing another creature, human or animal, and that's in self-defense. Killing a cow just because you like the taste of burgers more than the taste of something vegetarian, like pasta, is inexcusable in my eyes.

A lot of people who live on farms have trouble eating the flesh of animals they knew, because they saw the personalities in those animals, not just the meat. Animals aren't walking food sources; they're creatures with real feelings, sentient beings that know they're alive, and I could never end a conscious life.

I mean, yeah, meat is tasty. I thought so, too, back when I ate it. But the price, a genuine life, is too high. It doesn't matter that it came from a creature less intelligent or with less of a sense of morality; it doesn't matter that it came from a different species. You can draw all the lines of distinction you want. It may be a chicken and you may be a human, but you're both animals.
Author:  Duecex2 [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:21 pm ]
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Eating meat was totally justifiable when we were hunter-gatherers, it was needed for survival. Now? We can pretty much do without it. But I still loves it.
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:21 pm ]
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On the contrary, it's perfectly natural for humans to like and dislike different foods. If we all had the same tastes in food, Brussels sprout farmers would go out of business...

And, as I said, liking the taste of meat is one thing. But I wouldn't kill an animal just to enjoy that taste.

I stopped liking meat a while before I went veg, anyway. It's all fatty and toxic and even metallic in some cases.
Author:  Duecex2 [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:25 pm ]
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
But I wouldn't kill an animal just to enjoy that taste.


This makes no sense. You're not killing the animal, the people who kill the animals kill the animals. And even if you choose not to buy it, the animal is still dead. Nothing you can do about it.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:29 pm ]
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Well, like anything you buy, meat goes on the market in response to demand. If you're not buying meat, that meat won't be supplied, and that means less animals killed. It makes sense. It's basic economics.
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:33 pm ]
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True; and besides that, the meat-eaters are the group responsible for the deaths of animals, because if there were no meat-eaters, no animals would be killed. So if you eat meat, you're a part of the guilty group.
Author:  Simon Zeno [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:48 pm ]
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I eat meat just because I hate animals.

Sorry, I guess I'm just "that guy".
Author:  Mikes! [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:04 pm ]
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
True; and besides that, the meat-eaters are the group responsible for the deaths of animals, because if there were no meat-eaters, no animals would be killed. So if you eat meat, you're a part of the guilty group.

Are you really so confident in your guiltlessness of simply just not buying and eating meat? Unless you cultivate your own food, chances are, you're still benefitting parties which profit off of nonvegan food when you purchase those soy patties. It's a bit bigger than sanctifying the lives of cows; certainly this can't be the case, because so many animals were killed accidentally (or with intent, in the area of pest-control) to deliver those vegetables to you. And if they weren't, somewhere along the line, human lives were mistreated in process, when overworked migrant workers picked them, or when the grocery store clerks who shelve them were fired because they tried to unionize. Livestock is a problem of economics, rather than morality. Factory-farming comes about when society allows living beings to be considered capital, and have their value quantified. Participating in this economic system is not vegan.

Now I'm not trying to discourage your veganism. The vegan diet is a wonderful one, and I do feel healthier with it. I don't like the idea that animals were just born to become that leather or silk, but the fact remains that I would rather wear second-hand shoes than purchase new canvas ones from Nike. I kinda wish you kept more abreast of a perspective in this.
Author:  Duecex2 [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:30 pm ]
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Mike brings up excellent points. Even if you have no intention of helping kill animals, contributing to the American economy does so. So, I figure, eh, what are you gonna do?
Author:  Mikes! [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:37 pm ]
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I cannot, cannot, cannot, emphasize enough, however, that nothing I brought up should be taken as a hinderance to your veganism. It was merely to form an ideological critique.

As an interesting article puts forth:
"Also, it gives you a different relationship to the food you eat than most of us have: it makes you consider where it came from and what's in it, rather than just taking it for granted, and it also will probably make you a better cook! And finally, it brings up the issue for everybody. When you won't eat food unless you know what is in it, it forces the people around you to think for themselves about what is in the food and how it got there. In that way, veganism does more to change the world than writing lengthy political responses to letters ever could: it brings up important questions in everyday life and forces people think about questions that they wouldn't otherwise encounter."

So let's all have a nice vegan potluck. I've got a good recipe for some barbecue seitan and fried green tomatoes.
Author:  Duecex2 [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:39 pm ]
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Well, of course, being vegan is good

Image
FOR YOUR HEALTH
Author:  Zoologist! [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:04 pm ]
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I don't eat meat that often... I understand that meat is usually something that's needed, but there are so many vegetables/fruits out there that can substitute for the meat's protein and fat. Especially the almighty (soy) bean. Although I understand many people prefer meat, it still seems strange. To me, meat tastes like chewy water, or tastes unhealthy.

Blech.


I wouldn't go vegan, because that would mean no ice cream. There must always be ice cream. I use animal products, but I don't eat them. I just hate the taste of animal meat.
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:08 am ]
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Zoologist! wrote:
I wouldn't go vegan, because that would mean no ice cream... I use animal products, but I don't eat them.

Ah, but dairy ice cream is an animal product, which you eat (presumably; I don't know if you have a thing about rubbing ice cream on your skin or what.)

By the way, soy ice cream tastes EXACTLY like the real thing. Seriously.

And I also realize that not eating meat and not eating/using animal products isn't a way to totally prevent the exploitation of animals. But it's a first step. The goal of vegans is to eventually achieve a world where meat is no longer eaten and animal products are no longer used. Once we've reached that point, we can work on eliminating the problem completely.

Basically, you have to walk to the edge of the cliff before you can build the bridge.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:25 am ]
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
Zoologist! wrote:
I wouldn't go vegan, because that would mean no ice cream... I use animal products, but I don't eat them.

Ah, but dairy ice cream is an animal product, which you eat (presumably; I don't know if you have a thing about rubbing ice cream on your skin or what.)
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't vegans also refrain from drinking milk, and wouldn't that include ice cream?
Author:  IantheGecko [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:27 am ]
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Vegans don't eat anything that comes from an animal. Honey technically doesn't, but since worker bees are used to make it, then vegans don't eat honey either.
Author:  Ju Ju Master [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:45 am ]
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But what about plants? I mean, they're living too...
Author:  Zoologist! [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:31 am ]
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
Zoologist! wrote:
I wouldn't go vegan, because that would mean no ice cream... I use animal products, but I don't eat them.

Ah, but dairy ice cream is an animal product, which you eat (presumably; I don't know if you have a thing about rubbing ice cream on your skin or what.)


I meant I don't eat meat (or at least not that often). Besides, who doesn't rub ice cream on their skin? It's wonderful!

Ju Ju Master wrote:
But what about plants? I mean, they're living too...


They have no central nervous system, therefore, no one gives a crap about eating plants.
Author:  Did he sell eggs? [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:21 am ]
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I take comfort in the fact that I have not caused the animal any pain by eating it.
Author:  HHFOV [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:23 pm ]
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The way I see it:

1) Non-human animals already eat non-human animals, so to say we aren't supposed to is a double standard
2) We use animal products every day in car tires and so many everyday things in anyway you can't completely abolish it anyway
3) More animals are killed in harvesting each year than in the meat industry. At least when it's meat, you're actually eating them instead of in harvesting, where field mice and whatnot are murdered and put to waste.

For a thorougher explanation of my personal feelings about the subject, see: this and this (language).
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:38 pm ]
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1. Humans understand morals. Other animals don't have enough of an understanding of morals, or access to nutritionally complete vegetarian food. Although strides have recently been made with dog, cat, etc. food, other species obviously can't get that in the food.

2. It can be completely abolished, and I believe it will. The first step is to stop eating meat and animal products, and then the focus will shift to the use of animal products in, as you used for your example, car tires and such.

3. Myth. A few animals may be killed during the process of harvesting plants, but this is not a direct result of our buying vegetables- we're not paying for the dead flesh of animals. And the numbers of mouse-and-such casualties are far, far lower than the numbers of chickens, cows, turkeys, pigs, and other animals slaughtered for human consumption.
Author:  Einoo T. Spork [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:05 pm ]
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
2. It can be completely abolished, and I believe it will. The first step is to stop eating meat and animal products, and then the focus will shift to the use of animal products in, as you used for your example, car tires and such.

Hate to break it to you, but you're fighting a losing battle. The fact is, not enough people care for such things to ever occur.
Author:  Duecex2 [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:06 pm ]
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I refuse to stop eating meat. :DDDDDDDDD
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:14 pm ]
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
2. It can be completely abolished, and I believe it will. The first step is to stop eating meat and animal products, and then the focus will shift to the use of animal products in, as you used for your example, car tires and such.

Hate to break it to you, but you're fighting a losing battle. The fact is, not enough people care for such things to ever occur.

I wouldn't be so sure of myself if I were you. If every veg*an converts at least one person, and statistics show that that IS happening, there will come a day when people who eat meat are looked upon the same way cannibals are viewed in modern times.

To be frank, that's how I view it: cannibalism. But, again, I don't intend to accuse anyone.
Author:  Mikes! [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
1. Humans understand morals. Other animals don't have enough of an understanding of morals, or access to nutritionally complete vegetarian food. Although strides have recently been made with dog, cat, etc. food, other species obviously can't get that in the food.
See, it was that contemptuous and naive human exceptionalism, exactly, which made me go vegan. Humans are not more "enlightened" than other animals. That neither gives us the right to own animals, nor the right to impose veganism over other animals. It is a justifiable position for the vegan to take issue with factory farming as the source for their pet's food (though, I don't understand why the vegan would want to own domesticated animals in the first place). However, it isn't vegan to force a cat to not eat meat. How could you impose your own moral decisions like that over sentient creatures and still consider yourself vegan?
Author:  HHFOV [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
Myth.
nope
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Mikes! wrote:
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
1. Humans understand morals. Other animals don't have enough of an understanding of morals, or access to nutritionally complete vegetarian food. Although strides have recently been made with dog, cat, etc. food, other species obviously can't get that in the food.
See, it was that contemptuous and naive human exceptionalism, exactly, which made me go vegan. Humans are not more "enlightened" than other animals. That neither gives us the right to own animals, nor the right to impose veganism over other animals. It is a justifiable position for the vegan to take issue with factory farming as the source for their pet's food (though, I don't understand why the vegan would want to own domesticated animals in the first place). However, it isn't vegan to force a cat to not eat meat. How could you impose your own moral decisions like that over sentient creatures and still consider yourself vegan?

My cats don't really have a choice. They need food and a place to stay, and my parents provide them with that. That said, what they eat is determined by us, the humans that buy the food. I consider it better to not support the meat industry by buying vegan cat food, and it's been proven that it's healthier for the animals. A vegan diet, when supplemented with the right nutrients, is healthier for ANY creature.

I wouldn't consider feeding pets vegan food as "imposing" veganism over them. I would consider it feeding them the food they need, and it just happens to be vegan. As it is, my omnivorous parents feed our cats regular old Meat By-Product Cat Food.

And by the way, I never meant to imply that we're more "enlightened" than animals, only that we can consider and comprehend why it's wrong to eat other creatures. Animals just can't. Doesn't mean they're inferior.

@HHFOV: You eat vegetables, too...

I see very few solid numbers and facts in that article.

And allow me to restate my point that we aren't paying for dead mice, we're paying for vegetables. The animals killed in that operation is a separate issue that needs to addressed by farmers.

Basically, you can buy a bag of broccoli, which may or may not have reduced animal populations, but you buy a burger and you KNOW that burger reduced the number of cows out there.

Those cows were also horribly mistreated during their short lives. Factory farming. You can't abuse broccoli.
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