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| true equality http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4079 |
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| Author: | DESTROY US ALL! [ Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | true equality |
it seems nowadays every one is interperating things differently making the slightest differences in beliefs and ideals, and morals the deciding factor in many issues. My prime example of this is all of the different Christian faiths. Though all of theese have slight differences i have seen large fights break out over the reverance of saints and displaying of the crucifix. but why in this are other religions or belief structures being put on the back burner in our governing bodies? Every thing seems to be based on Christian moral structures, will other religions ever have equal staying power in america? people say this is the perfect country and has the ultamite sense of freedom and equality. But yet this is still a very divided country, such as gay marriage, it is purely religious to say people of the same sex cannot marry. If those people were say athiests why would this even apply to them? But really all i am asking is why christianity has the last say in everything in the US and when will we finally have true equality? |
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| Author: | Jitka [ Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:07 am ] |
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The other religions will never have as much sway over America and American politics as Christianity does, simply because the vast majority of Americans are Christian, and politicians need to make themselves as appealing to their constituents as is possible. To do this, they must appeal to the strong Christian beliefs of much of the American population, and say things that they think the people want to hear, like attempting to ban gay marriage. Case in point: George Bush rushing to Washington from Crawford to sign an emergency bill to try and stop Terri Schiavo's feeding tube from being removed, because it would please the ultra-conservative right and many of the American people. In fact, many people would not even say there is a problem, because they are the people ultra-conservatives are trying to please. |
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| Author: | DESTROY US ALL! [ Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:20 am ] |
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but favoring only this majority cannot truely be equal, the simple majority rules is not enough. All peoples of any views race or ethnicity should have equal say, not just the overall majority. We cannot let this archaic form of democracy run rampant? What if this becomes to tied up in pleasing the maority that the minorities rights are trampled upon? isn't this just degrading the fabric of our society today? damn it oprah needs to run for president. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:15 am ] |
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While I would agree that you should not have a tyranny of the majority, where minority views are completely overthrown in the majority opinion, I would also point out that there is a problem with your proposition: you end up setting up a tyranny of the minority. Majority opinion would then lose meaning amidst the confrontation with minority opinion, and that's just as bad. Actually, worse, because then more people are left dissatisfied while only a few will be happy with the decisions made. Not only that, but then you also have to factor in conflict between the minorities (say, when the Muslims decide we need laws against Buddhism, etc.). I also think it is terribly unfair to characterize all our moral standards as being the mere opinion of a Christian majority. Hate to break this to you, but other religions follow similar moral codes. Doing away with morality would offend them just as much as it would Christians. So, in the end, the only people who would be satisfied with an amoral government would be immoral people. Here's my challenge to you: if you can come up with a system that simultaneously respected minority opinions and yet didn't tick off the majority of people, I'll give you a cookie. |
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| Author: | DESTROY US ALL! [ Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:44 pm ] |
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will it be white chocolate macadamia? i have looked my post over and you are right there are some major flaws,in reality noone can really create that "utopia" of a society |
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| Author: | DanBo [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:47 pm ] |
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Didymus wrote: Here's my challenge to you: if you can come up with a system that simultaneously respected minority opinions and yet didn't tick off the majority of people, I'll give you a cookie.
I call it..Canada. Now where's my cookie? |
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| Author: | StrongCanada [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:03 am ] |
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DanBo wrote: Didymus wrote: Here's my challenge to you: if you can come up with a system that simultaneously respected minority opinions and yet didn't tick off the majority of people, I'll give you a cookie. I call it..Canada. Now where's my cookie? BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Not quite, puddin'. Try living there. Seriously - I love Canada (I miss my free health care), but no government is "perfect", not even ours. |
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| Author: | DanBo [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:22 am ] |
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None ever are, but I'm using the Voltaire-ian view of governments: It's a bad government. But it's the best one we've got. But anythings better than dealing with tons and tons of neo-cons and off-their-rocker libs. Can't we at least agree to disagree? |
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| Author: | PizzaTrophy [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:54 pm ] |
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As long as there are other people in this world, there will be no real equality. There will always be conflicting thoughts and stubborness. And that's how wars start. |
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| Author: | Beyond the Grave [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
DanBo wrote: Didymus wrote: Here's my challenge to you: if you can come up with a system that simultaneously respected minority opinions and yet didn't tick off the majority of people, I'll give you a cookie. I call it..Canada. Now where's my cookie? |
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| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:07 pm ] |
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destroy_us_all wrote: noone can really create that "utopia" of a society
Oh yes they can, but it would be very very bad. 1984, by George Orwell? Utopia is created, and the masses are happy, but it's achieved through brainwashing of the peoples, detroying retion and free thought, and it's so frightening because everyone agrees with what the government says. Isn't that part of a good government, having the ability and right to disagree? |
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| Author: | seamusz [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:56 pm ] |
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DeadGaySon wrote: destroy_us_all wrote: noone can really create that "utopia" of a society Oh yes they can, but it would be very very bad. 1984, by George Orwell? Utopia is created, and the masses are happy, but it's achieved through brainwashing of the peoples, detroying retion and free thought, and it's so frightening because everyone agrees with what the government says. Isn't that part of a good government, having the ability and right to disagree? 1984 was not a description of an utopian society, It was a society in which the government had complete control... Not really sure how what you said applys? |
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| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:22 pm ] |
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What's your definition of utopia. All of the people are happy. They love thier government. There is no disagree ment. Wouldn't everybody love to have that? Wouldn't you call that utopia. But we see that everyone being happy is not always a good thing. It's in the eye of the beholder. You ask one of the brainwashed characters (if they existed) and I'm sure they'd tell you life was bliss. The point is, making everyone happy is possible. But it's never good. |
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| Author: | seamusz [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:45 pm ] |
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DeadGaySon wrote: What's your definition of utopia. All of the people are happy. They love thier government. There is no disagree ment. Wouldn't everybody love to have that? Wouldn't you call that utopia. But we see that everyone being happy is not always a good thing. It's in the eye of the beholder. You ask one of the brainwashed characters (if they existed) and I'm sure they'd tell you life was bliss.
The point is, making everyone happy is possible. But it's never good. Actually, the point of 1984 (as I understood it) was that no one was happy, but that the government surpressed all dissenting views. And on top of that, there were an entire class of people who did not get the advantages of the government. I still don't think that I follow at all. Happiness can only exsist when we know some level of saddness. |
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| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:51 pm ] |
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I'm not comparing utopia directly to the book, I'm just using it to make a point. The people were happy with thier government, and it was bad. The point is, disagreement is one of the upsides of a decent government, everyone has the right to disagree |
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| Author: | seamusz [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:03 pm ] |
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DeadGaySon wrote: I'm not comparing utopia directly to the book, I'm just using it to make a point. The people were happy with thier government, and it was bad. The point is, disagreement is one of the upsides of a decent government, everyone has the right to disagree
hmmm... I completely agree about disagreement being a good thing (an ironic statement), but the people in 1984 were not happy with their government... unless you read a different 1984 than I did. (ok ill stop with the "i don't think that you read 1984" talk now) |
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| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:53 pm ] |
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Yes they were. That's exactly the thing. They agreed with everything the government said. Because they had no choice. They were brainwashed to be happy. |
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| Author: | seamusz [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:32 pm ] |
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DeadGaySon wrote: Yes they were. That's exactly the thing. They agreed with everything the government said. Because they had no choice. They were brainwashed to be happy. \
They were forced into complancency. No one was happy, but everyone was made to look happy, or they were eliminated. But it seemed clear to me in the book that few were truely happy. |
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| Author: | Jitka [ Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
But they were brainwashed to BELIEVE they were happy. The government controlled every aspect of their lives, including their personal beliefs. Even if they were unhappy, the government told them they were happy, and they accepted it. Now TOASTPAINT! |
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| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:52 pm ] |
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Toastpaint... got it. Arguments are bound to happen, because there's nothing we can do to the government to make evertone happy. TAnd even if we could, there would be people who would be angry just for nthe sake of it. People are like that. It can't work. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Are you trying to tell me we live in a fallen world? Where people all pretty much look after their own interests most of the time? And where some people are just plain jerks? That can't be right! [/irony] |
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| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
haha, exactly. There's no such things as complete equality. People will find a way to belive that they're better than other people. But you've got to look at it objectively. I don't care who you are, evreyone has prejudices (sp?) To really comprehend all of the six billion people in the world, and truly understand that we're no better than anyone, would drive you completely insane. Whatch American History X. Great movie, if you're not easily offended by massive ammounts of violence, gore, racism, language, and tons of other crazy crap. There's a moral behind it though. Excellent movie. |
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| Author: | seamusz [ Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:33 pm ] |
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You see, true equality and freedom cannot coexist. When you say that everyone is equal, you have a socialist system that holds some down while raising others. The best that can be done is to let people excell and do what you can to give others the opportunity to do the same. True equality is neither possible nor healthy imo. |
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