Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

I'm just going to get to the point here: While I respect the lives of the Popes, Mary and the saints, I just can't be a Catholic:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that anyone can boast. Sola fide.

As a Protestant, I believe wholly in these words. I don't believe that I need to go through all these "steps" to repay for my sins. The only "step" is to accept Christ. I actually find it absurd that we should pray to anyone but God. After all, saints & martyrs were people, too. Yes, they did lead holy lives, but none of them is The Messiah, so why should we do anything more than thank them for what they've done for Jesus?

I'm sorry; I respect Catholics, but most of their beliefs essentially go against those 2 verses.

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It was only a matter of time.

All right. I am Catholic. Let me clear up some things right off the bat so some ignorant person can't come in and say "i heard u guys warship the Pope! Ur goin 2 hell!!!11!"

We do not worship the Pope. We do not worship Mary. We do not worship the saints. We only worship God.

We don't really pray to Mary and the saints; we ask them to pray to God for us.

The only step necessary to get to Heaven is basically the same in all of Christianity. Catholics do not have to do good works, but we do need to repent our sins, and we do this through confession. The priest does not do the forgiving, God does. But let's face it; you do feel better after you get all those sins off your back.

I'm really not sure what you see wrong with any of that.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

Can't you pray to God yourself?

Protestants repent, but we're already forgiven.

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Of course. But the saints and Mary have more influence. Think of writing a letter to your congressman when you want him to lobby the President for something. It's like that.



Then what's the point of repenting? If you're already forgiven simply because you believe in Jesus, you'll still automatically get to Heaven no matter what you've done? You need to ask God's forgiveness, you don't just automatically get it.

And may I ask what flavor of Protestantism you are? I know there are several dozen.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

God's not a President; he's a King.

BTW, I don't consider myself any one Protestant denomination.

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Ian, in Roman Catholicism, the notion of asking a saint or departed loved one to pray for them is no different than asking your pastor or your neighbor to pray for you. It's not a matter that they HAVE to go through the saints, but that they believe that such people are indeed available to take such prayer requests.

On the surface, it appears harmless. However, I do have to wonder whether St. Andrew's comm system can handle all the incoming calls from every traveler around the world. So, yes, I do acknowledge some problems with it. But let's not judge their spirituality based entirely on modern protestant myths. I have some very dear Catholic friends, and to me they seem every bit as Christian as any protestant I know.

In fact, it bothers me immensely that most modern protestants do not acknowledge the Sacraments, despite the fact that Scripture teaches them, as do the ancient creeds. So while there might be some errors within Roman Catholic piety, there are also errors in modern protestant piety as well. And keep in mind, I say this as a protestant minister.

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Thanks for clearing that up, Didymus. I just always thought that there was something "wrong" with Catholicism.

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I hope you don't feel that way any more, Ian.

And thank you, Didymus, for your explanation. You did it better than I could have, I'm sure.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

I didn't necessarily mean that; I just don't agree with Catholicism.

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I've never really understood why the denominations bicker amongst themselves. My heavily Baptist grandmother thinks that Catholicism is a cult and I get that general idea from the rest of her church. Is that really necessary? You guys are all worshiping the same god. Let other Christians worship how they want to worship.

Don't you find the different saints representing different things seems a bit... oh, I don't know... pagan?

God says -everyone- is equal in his eyes, so why would you need to pray to a saint if they are equal in his eyes just like everyone else?

Catholicism is odd because a large amount of it doesn't even come from the Bible. For instance; saints. A saint is just someone who worships God. It's not somebody who performed a miracle.

Jeeze, it's like when you're in kindergarten and you're trying to get the kids to stop eating glue.

This is the second time I've had to explain that WE DO NOT PRAY TO SAINTS. We ask them to pray to God FOR us, like Didymus said.
It's no different from asking someone you know to pray for you. There is a difference between venerating something and worshiping something.

And in order to become a Saint in Roman Catholicism, you do have to perform some miracles in your life, so I don't know where you get your ideas from. Please do some fact checking before you accuse. This is exactly what I was trying to prevent in my first post.



Kindly explain what exactly you mean by that.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

Don't bother explaining, GeneralDoli. Keep it friendly. Veiled insults are still insults and will still get you banned pretty quick. (JTTC: Don't feed the trolls.)

As usual, Wikipedia knows a bit about saints.

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But apparently God isn't? Why do I need to go through someone else?

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Of course you can pray to God, but we can also ask Saints to pray for us.

For the last time, we do not worship them.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

Ya know, we talked about this at work a while back. Not so much a worship discussion as just a discussion of the religions we've been exposed to, and our general ignorance of the ones we don't know.. The subject of denominations came up, and, as it seems to me, most of the denominations came from someone not liking something about their church and breaking off to form their own. I can't help but think that, possibly, this would result in a watered down version of whatever religion they claim to be a part of..
Something that also came up was this "factioning of denominations" that seems to be going on. It seems like the whole idea of denominations is seperating the church. It could be argued that Satan is behind it all. Divide and conquer.. Seems like a good idea.

FYI, not all non-Catholics, not even all Baptists view Catholicism as a cult. I know you weren't saying that, but I'm afraid some people might be thinking it.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Along the same lines, I'm a Mormon. We have similar beliefs to Catholics when it comes to the "faith vs. works" argument, in that we don't believe we're automatically saved without having to actually DO anything.

I was driving through a major city last week and scanning radio stations, when I found a show named "How to share the Scriptures with Mormons." I was intrigued, so I continued listening. The topic today was basically, "Mormons believe they have to actually DO STUFF to be saved. That's wrong. Here's how to explain that to them."

My question is this... why does this bother you Protestants? I mean, if we're all saved by believing in Christ, what's the big deal if us Mormons want to sacrifice our money and time to Him?

To answer your problem, because it is contrary to the teachings of Scripture. It makes human action the basis of salvation, rather than God's mercy. The Scriptures make it very clear that salvation is a gift from God, not something that can be earned. Just read what St. Paul wrote.

The distinction (and I'll admit, to some it might seem very fine) is whether good works must be done BEFORE the gift is given (in which case, it is no longer a gift), or something done AFTER as an expression of appreciation and trust. The Scriptures and the concensus of Christianity proclaim the latter. Even Roman Catholics refer to the teachings of St. Augustine, who, in opposition to the heretic Pelagius, proclaimed that salvation is a gift from God. How closely popular Roman Catholic piety sticks with Augustine is a different matter.

Furthermore, to make good works the basis of salvation then makes the Christian faith a burden rather than a liberated life. People then are in the position of worrying and fretting over whether what they do is enough, or, like most people today, they begin to think that they are entitled to God's mercy, rather than being dependent upon God.

So this is why good works do not earn salvation:
1. Scripture declares that salvation is purely a gift from God.
2. The notion of Grace Alone (i.e., salvation as pure gift) brings honor to God rather than man.
3. Grace alone liberates people to serve God in thankfulness with a free conscience, while the notion of Works Salvation leads the weak into despair and the arrogant into false security.

But in defense of Good Works, I will say this: the Scriptures do say that faithful believers will bear fruit (i.e., do good works with a free conscience). So a Christian life will never appear to be devoid of good works. The faithful Christian, however, will see good works as an opportunity to serve both God and man, and to further the cause of Christ. In short, he will see the good works themselves as a gift from God. To Him be all honor and glory forever. Amen.

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I still don't get why I would need an "intermediary" for prayer. God isn't too busy to hear my prayers; why do I need to ask someone deceased to pray for me?

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Though I don't follow Catholocism, (so someone who is more knowledgeable, please correct me if I'm wrong), you CAN still pray to God, but why not pray to God, AND ask certain Saints to pray for you? Prayer is a powerful thing; and the more people (dead or living) who pray for something, the better.

Is that about right?

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That is exactly how it is, SC. I don't see what's wrong with having some of the holiest people in history praying to God on your behalf while you pray too.

The more the merrier, as they say.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, Didymus. If I may, I'd like to place a couple more...

1. Your above quote is rather absolute. Do you mean that someone who has accepted the Grace of God through Christ and is "saved" who does not do good works is not living a Christian life? Will he achieve salvation in the afterlife?

2. And to somewhat restate my original question: will Mormons be damned for all eternity for not believing their salvation is assured through mere belief on Christ?

And in conclusion, a rebuttal to your "faith vs. works" stance from St. James.

James Chapter 2


14.What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for brighteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So then are you claiming that the Bible contradicts itself?

The explanation is very simple. St. Paul is addressing people who are being told that their salvation depends on their following ancient Hebrew law code. He is correcting them by pointing out that it is by grace, not works, that a man is saved. St. James, on the other hand, is addressing complacency among people who hold a mere intellectual faith (i.e., think they have all the answers). Matthew 13 speaks of such people, ones who hear the Word at first, but then allow their love of the world to turn them from God.

But the key point, which I reiterate, is which comes first? Are good works done in order to earn grace? If so, then it is not grace, but obligation (what St. Paul calls Law), and that leads to death. But if grace is received with joy and results in good works, then it is merely the end result. In other words, the overwhelming testimony of Scripture is that man is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, but that good works are an essential part of that life of faith. That passage in St. James is the only one I've seen that people could possibly use to contradict that, and if understood rightly, even it doesn't. In St. James, just as in St. Paul, a life of faith is one marked by good works. However, without faith, the good works are worthless, as filthy rags before God. So even good works must be based on faith and not upon obligation.

But there are some distinct challenges to the notion of works salvation. First, what of the Sacraments? The Scriptures clearly teach that in the Sacraments, particularly in Holy Baptism, God is at work saving that person, washing away their sins and giving them new life. Yet Baptism is not a work, but a demonstration of God's mercy. If a person must be saved by works, then Baptism is meaningless, nothing but a show.

And I will ask the same question St. Augustine asked of the heretic Pelagius: if mankind can be saved by works, then why was Jesus crucified? Was Jesus not crucified so that men could be saved? If so, then how do good works factor in?

It all gets back to the whole Pelagian debate. Scripture clearly teaches that man, apart from faith, is unable to do anything pleasing to God. Apart from faith, a man is dead in his sins, an enemy of God, and blind to his own spiritual condition. The dead cannot raise themselves, nor can a defeated enemy set terms for his own surrender, nor can a blind man see enough to heal himself of his blindness. Only a power outside of themselves can do that for them. God alone has the power to raise those who are spiritually dead, to cure their blindness, and reconcile them to himself. This is something good works alone cannot accomplish. Only God's grace has the power to save. Only God's goodness can make evil men truly good. Only God's mercy can bring a man from darkness into light. Only God's love can soften the hardened heart and produce faith, hope, and love.

So is it faith or works that saves? The answer is YES. But it's works that are based on faith, not on obligation. Otherwise, the works themselves are dead.

The key difference is this. Whatever good works you do, ask yourself the question: am I doing this because I love God and want to serve him, or am I doing because somebody else told me I ought to? If the former, it is a good work based on faith. If the latter, it is a filthy rag.

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Not exactly. Didymus, you're an educated person. You know better than I do all the different translations and transcriptions the Bible has gone through over the centuries. Not to mention the different councils of men that have convened to decide what is actually the word of God and what isn't.

Bottom line here is that you need to infer things from scriptural text sometimes to decide what's really going on. Example: what you did with my quotation of James. If it was really all that simple, why are there hundreds of different Christian faiths?

I agree with you on a lot of what you are saying. Faith and works go hand in hand. Lest you believe I'm advocating salvation through our own works alone, I need to say I'm not. Without Christ's sacrifice, none of us have a shot at making it, spiritually. End of story. I just believe that it's a relationship we all have with Christ... he covers us with his Atonement while we're still learning and growing and making mistakes.... and as long as we're doing our best (which varies greatly from individual to individual), we're good. There is no number of good works we need to do to be saved. Good members of my faith don't keep the commandments of God our of fear or a sense of duty... they do it because they love Jesus and want to follow Him, which is what you were saying.

However, if you would be so kind, please answer the two questions I previously placed:

1. If someone who has confessed Christ does not continue in a life of good works, but instead follows a life of wickedness, what is his spiritual state in the afterlife?

and

2. Just because Mormons believe in this relationship with Jesus where our works combined with his sacrifice and mercy will eventually save us, instead of His mercy alone, are we damned? Will the Lord look on us and say, "You have done too much to be saved,"?

Thanks.

lahimatoa, I'm also LDS, and I've been studying a lot about this recently. A very common attitude with in the LDS church is that we need to do EVERYTHING possible to be perfect and WORK WORK WORK WORK WORK to be perfect and don't let anybody know that you aren't perfect, and just try a little harder so we can be more perfect. We have the attitude that if we just tried a little harder, we could be better. However, extend that, and you'll see that what these people are saying is that if they could just try hard enough, they wouldn't need Jesus at all anymore. The way we say that which sounds nice, is that we have to do everything we can, and then God makes up the difference. What we don't include in that is where the power to make it happen comes from.

When we have the attitude that we have to do everything we can before God will save, we are saying that we have power to improve ourselves. Instead, it is important that we are humble enough to admit that of ourselves we are nothing. We have no power to improve ourselves in even the smallest bit. We have no power, the only thing we have is our own will. The only true source of power is Jesus Christ. We need to realize that any good that we are able to do is through the grace and power of Jesus, and that our only contribution to the work was that we were willing to let it be done. Every degree of improvement that Jesus gives us power to achieve is a degree of salvation from sin. If we believe that we can improve ourselves without His help, then we are saying that we have power to save, which is not true.

So as far as I can tell, here is the true system. As we develop our Faith (or in other words, Trust in God,) we put ourselves in a position to become more willing to put Him in charge of our life, to sacrifice our own will to His will. As we become more willing to do His will, He will give us more of His power to execute His will. As we do His will, we see and feel the consequences of these actions, and develop more trust in God. And hopefully, thus continues the cycle until He has developed us to our full potential. The only way off the track is for us to decide that we have improved enough, and that we don't want to improve any further for now.

There is no minimum of how we should be or act before God will act on behalf of our salvation. There is no we need to obey a through f commandments before God will begin to save us. There are many great examples of wicked men who at the lowest, most evil points in their lives, saw what they had done, despaired, became willing to turn away from sin, and turned to Jesus Christ for salvation. Think of Alma the Younger.

Anyhoo, I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about our church that most people outside of the church have (and many people within the church do as well.)

I wholly agree, racerx. Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make.

There were two basic points I was trying to make:

1. Apart from faith and the work of God in a person's life, that person can do nothing to please God.
2. That even the good works we do in this life are to God's credit, not ours, because the good works we do are prompted by faith and are the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, to the Christian, good works are a gift from God, i.e., an opportunity more than an obligation. This is why Scripture says, "May he who began this good work in us bring it to completion in the day of Christ Jesus."

In fact, if you were to go back to the Pelagian contraversy, the central part of the debate was whether man had within himself, apart from God, the ability to please God. The conclusion of the debate was a resounding "NO."

The problem with making good works an obligation is that it then makes it out that God is unable to show true mercy. Remember the thief on the cross. Here was a man utterly powerless to do anything to please God. The only thing he had to offer Jesus was his own sinful self, which is what he did when he said, "Remember me in your kingdom."

As I've mentioned before, I have worked with recovering addicts before. The very first step to recovery is the admission that we are completely powerless. The second step is recognizing that God alone has the power to change our circumstance. The third step, then, is to "Let go and let God," as they say.

I do not know of any Alma the Younger. However, I do know St. Paul, and this was a man who did exceedingly evil things, only to receive God's mercy. Yet that mercy he received motivated him to change the world.

So there we have it. Salvation is indeed by grace alone, but, given time, that grace ends up looking like good works. Nevertheless, it is God's doing that accomplishes it.

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Didymus, if you're not going to answer my questions, just say so and I can let it go.

He did answer your questions. Good works are nothing without faith. Don't you think that a true believer would NATURALLY want to do good for the glory of God anyway? Meaning that the good works by themselves are meaningless. They go along with faith, but are not above it. Besides, who are any of us to judge people's salvation - that's up to God. Maybe being a minister, Didymus can, but I certainly can't. If you want my personal opinion on your questions, if a person believes in Jesus but then leads a life of wickedness (and doesn't repent) then they aren't a true believer. As for your second question, as long as you have faith and do good works for the glory of God, I doubt God will look at you at the end of your life and say you "did too much". But I can't speak for God. Only He can do that.

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Hey Diddy! If I just understood what I wrote, and what you wrote, then I think that (GASP) we have a similar understanding of Faith vs. Works. Imagine that! A Mormon and Lutheran agreeing on faith and works (as far as I can tell, I can't speak for you.)

As for who Alma the Younger is, part of his story is here (through the end of the chapter,) and he later retells his conversion story to his son here.

Basically, when we try and improve ourselves without turning wholly to God, then we will eventually run out of energy to do it. It's like pushing a car up a hill. And if we persist in this effort of trying to be perfect without turning to God, in the end we will find that even though we tried to do everything right, we never experienced that change of heart that comes when we become willing to let God rule in our hearts.