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Author:  lahimatoa [ Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
StrongCanada wrote:
I doubt God will look at you at the end of your life and say you "did too much". But I can't speak for God. Only He can do that.



Which brings me to my original question. Why do people feel the need to "correct" Mormons in this way? They don't know how God will judge them.
Author:  StrongCanada [ Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't feel a need to correct Mormons.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
The only problem I have with Mormans is when they knock on my door at 7:30 AM, and try and convert me. Other than that I have no problems. Oh, by the way I am Catholic.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would also address the question of what kind of stuff is being said that people have to do. That hasn't been made real clear in this discussion yet.

It is my observation that numerous church bodies, not just the Mormons, seem to have their own ideas of what a Christian life should and shouldn't look like, often with reference to things not discussed in Scripture. For example, why is it that some churches believe that Christians should never drink beer? I have never read anywhere in Scripture where it says, "Thou shalt not drinketh thy Cold Ones." There are some cautions given in Scripture, but never an outright prohibition. In fact, I would contend that since Jesus drank wine--in fact, used wine to form the basis of his most precious Sacrament--that there's nothing wrong with moderate use of alcohol. Alcohol, at least as shown in Scripture, is a gift from God to be celebrated, but not abused. And yet, there are some fanatical Christians who contend that any alcohol consumption is evil (I wonder how many of them keep Nite-Quil in their medicine cabinets).

So, I would suggest, that what we have here and in that radio show mentioned earlier is the clash of two different humanly (i.e., non-biblical) standards about what the Christian life should look like.

We Lutherans strive to avoid such things. We acknowledge only the authority of the Bible. Where humans like to make up rules, we point back to God and his standards.

There are other points of contention, however. The vast majority of Christians (me among them) do not acknowledge The Book of Mormon as scripture. In fact, most would contend that the claim that it is such is blasphemous. But then again, some denominations acknowledge the Apocrypha, which likewise the vast majority of Christians do not.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
It is my observation that numerous church bodies, not just the Mormons, seem to have their own ideas of what a Christian life should and shouldn't look like, often with reference to things not discussed in Scripture. For example, why is it that some churches believe that Christians should never drink beer? I have never read anywhere in Scripture where it says, "Thou shalt not drinketh thy Cold Ones." There are some cautions given in Scripture, but never an outright prohibition. In fact, I would contend that since Jesus drank wine--in fact, used wine to form the basis of his most precious Sacrament--that there's nothing wrong with moderate use of alcohol. Alcohol, at least as shown in Scripture, is a gift from God to be celebrated, but not abused. And yet, there are some fanatical Christians who contend that any alcohol consumption is evil (I wonder how many of them keep Nite-Quil in their medicine cabinets).
Well I know in Catholicism, wine is sacred. I mean one of Jesus' Miracles was turning water into wine(a personal favorite). When I go to reciecve Communion, I get a wafer(Body of Christ) and a water and wine mixture(Blood of Christ). Alcohol is scared in many religions. In Judism, during circumsicion(sp), you get a drop of wine. So in both Catholicism and Judism, alcohol plays a very big role.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
BeyondtheGrave wrote:
The only problem I have with Mormans is when they knock on my door at 7:30 AM, and try and convert me. Other than that I have no problems. Oh, by the way I am Catholic.


I'd be willing to guess that those weren't Mormon missionaries... but Jehovah's Witnesses. We don't get going door to door until at least 9:30 AM. ;)

And good points, Didymus. Thanks for the conversation.
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:24 pm ]
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Us Lutherans hold wine to be Sacred as well. Unlike most protestants, we still believe in the Sacraments as Sacred Events. Of course, we typically mean Baptism and Holy Communion, but some of us (including myself) include Absolution and Healing to be sacramental as well. (I do know for a fact that, what used to be called Last Rites in the Roman Catholic Church has been revised into a Sacrament for Healing. Of course, when I worked in the nursing home, I had a few priests come in to administer Last Rites to dying residents).

In other words, we believe that the Bread and Wine are indeed the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, as stated in the Scriptures. How exactly? Well, we leave that up to God to decide.

Sorry it took so long to answer, but my porn blocker was classifying this as porn for some reason (well, Drug/Alcohol related, anyway. Probably because I mentioned wine). Anyway, I had forgotten my password and had to retrieve it.

Yes, I use a porn blocker. Mostly so my browser won't get hijacked again. But also so I won't be tempted myself. After all, I am a single pastor.
Author:  Smorky [ Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:28 pm ]
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Yeah, it's not really good for a pastor to be looking at that stuff
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:30 pm ]
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Well, it's not really good for ANYBODY, but if I were caught, I'd get in trouble, whereas others wouldn't (except maybe for kids).

That's why I have the blocker on there: to keep even accidental appearances from popping up on my system.
Author:  IantheGecko [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Toastpaint!!!

Didymus wrote:
In fact, it bothers me immensely that most modern protestants do not acknowledge the Sacraments, despite the fact that Scripture teaches them, as do the ancient creeds.


My home church had a "sacramental service" about a year ago. It was very different from what I was used to; very formal, solemn, & quiet. I liked it; the service was a nice break from our more "uplifting" servies. My mom was raised Episcopalian, so she was used to it.

I live literally 3 doors down from a Lutheran church. I've never even been inside, although I've ridden my bike & my scooter numerous times in the big parking lot. I'd like to go there sometime; a more "formal" church might clear my mind from all the "noise" & focus it on God.
Author:  What's Her Face [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:01 am ]
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I am (was) a Catholic - I would say that in my Catholic school education I wasn't taught to rever the Pope. Never, in fact. My religious instruction was very much based on the gospels, with a bit of Old Testament thrown in for good measure, and not the edicts of the Vatican. Mary was an important figure in my religious education, it's true, but I was taught that her conception of Christ was a work of God - hence, I was taught to celebrate the work of God, as personified by Mary.

Of course, that's just my experience, and every Catholic culture differs as to what importance it places on popes and the Vatican. Polish Catholics, for example, had a special regard for their Polish pope.

But in closing, I'll say this - the closer you move towards the dogma of the Vatican's inner circles, the further away you move from Christ's teaching. I doubt if Christ would wish his ministers to tell Africa - a continent dying of AIDS - the lies they tell about the use of contraception.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:48 am ]
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What's Her Face wrote:
Polish Catholics, for example, had a special regard for their Polish pope.
When Cardinal Karol Wojtyła was elected to the Papacy, it was one of only two good things to Poland in the 20th Century (Solidarity was the other one). John Paul II was a source of national pride to a country that desperately needed it. Oh by the way I am Polish.
Author:  DanBo [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:55 am ]
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As a non-practicing Catholic, I saw the workings of the Church and saw how backwards many of the ideologies were. Not in the sense of my local priests or neighbors, but the inner-workings in the Vatican itself. Some of the pracitices that were held highly were just...strange. Why did I have to confess to a human my sins? Other things also rubbed me the wrong way.
Like the idea of eating meat on Fridays. The reason it was "sacreligious" was because the Pope had made an agreement with fishermen to make it so. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't money involved?) Either way, the specifics don't matter. I think Protestantism is necessary because of the way the Catholic church missed the mark in the teachings of the Bible. Mr. Luther had the right idea. However, popular Protestant sects themselves in this age are starting to shift in that direction, made evident in abortion clinic bombings, lobbying for Intelligent Design science lessons, praising "divine" images (Mary, or Jesus, or whomever Holy) and the right-to-live, Terry Schiavo fiasco.
My beef with Christianity isn't the ideals...it's how those ideals are so often misinterpreted.
Author:  IantheGecko [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:27 am ]
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I have another question about Catholicism: Do we need to restore God's grace if we're already saved? Sola fide, right? Is it necessary to say rosaries or "Hail Marys"? I don't mean to offend anyone, but as a Protestant, I believe in Ephesians 2:8-9 & the 5 Solas.

Please don't bash me!!!
Author:  Black Metal [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  C'mon people watch the new Simpsons!
The episode of the simpsons that was just on touched on this very subject. The way the episode ended (not including the 1000 years later part) was how I and others here felt all along. We're all Christians, People! The tiny differences between the different types are ignorable. We all have the same basic beliefs.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Why did I have to confess to a human my sins?

In my understanding of Scripture, Christians are told to confess their sins to one another and to forgive one another in Christ. There is tremendous benefit to doing so. There's accountability, first of all. If you are offering people a chance to look at your private sins, they can help you to fight back against them. Second, and believe me it is true, you can learn a lot about grace when you confess your sins to other people, well, to gracious people, anyway. I know how liberating it can be to discuss your deepest most private sins with someone, only to have them forgive you and accept you anyway. It's like all the pain and guilt associated with it just melts away.

So, in one sense, no you don't have to confess your sins to anybody. But on the other hand, do you really want to take your battle against sin seriously? Then find yourself a trustworthy person with whom you can confide.
Author:  King Nintendoid [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Beyond the Grave wrote:
The only problem I have with Mormans is when they knock on my door at 7:30 AM, and try and convert me. Other than that I have no problems. Oh, by the way I am Catholic.


Jehova's Witnesses anyone?
Author:  DeadGaySon [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
What's her face wrote:
Of course, that's just my experience, and every Catholic culture differs as to what importance it places on popes and the Vatican. Polish Catholics, for example, had a special regard for their Polish pope.


Yes, I have a Polish Catholic freind. The pope's death was very hard for him, and I don't blame him. Pope John Paul was a great man, and he did wonders for the Catholic Church. I'm... hesitant about the new Pope, but who knows, I may be wrong.

I don't know too much about religion, but I've always liked Catholic Churches. They're just very pretty. And likewise, I have a lot of very good Catholic freinds, as I also have a lot of very good protestant freinds. We can argue who's right, but that's the extent of it. There's too many ways to interpret the bible, arguments tend to just go in circles, without ever getting a defined winner. :)
Author:  IantheGecko [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  I took these in Paris. :D
Image
Sacré-Cœur'D!
Image
Sainte-Chappelle'D!

I'm with DGS all the way. I disagree with Catholicism, but you have to love the churches & cathedrals & basilicas! They're GORGEOUS!!!
Author:  Jitka [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ian, I'd like to know exactly what part of Catholicism you disagree with. Is is just the whole Confession thing, or is there more?

And I agree, Catholic churches are beautiful.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I took these in Paris. :D
IanTheGecko wrote:
Image
Sacré-Cœur'D!
Image
Sainte-Chappelle'D!

I'm with DGS all the way. I disagree with Catholicism, but you have to love the churches & cathedrals & basilicas! They're GORGEOUS!!!
here I will add three more to that.
Image
Notre Dame
Image
Chartes
Image
Washington Cathedral
Author:  Jitka [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
BROKEN LINK'D!!

Maybe you should post those as links, so you don't stretch the page.

My question still stands, Ian. What is your disagreement with Catholicism?
Author:  IantheGecko [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
Ian, I'd like to know exactly what part of Catholicism you disagree with. Is is just the whole Confession thing, or is there more?


I believe in the 5 Solas:

Sola fide: "For it is by grace alone you have been saved—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."-Ephesians 2:8-9
This directly contrasts with the Catholic principle of "Faith and good works yield justification."

Sola scriptura: The Bible is the only & inspired Word of God.

Solus Christus: Only Christ can bring salvation, not Mary, the saints (though I do respect them for living extraordinary lives for Christ) or priests. "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."-John 3:16

Sola gratia: Again, salvation comes through grace alone.

Soli Deo gloria: All the glory is to God alone; He died on the Cross as Jesus & grants us the faith which saves us from this atonement. Therefore, He is the only one we should worship, not the Pope or priests. Again, I do respect these people, but can't worship them.

Since Catholicism contrasts with each one of these on at least one point, I choose not to follow it.
Author:  Jitka [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I still think you may misunderstand one or two points here.

Ian wrote:
Sola fide: "For it is by grace alone you have been saved—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."-Ephesians 2:8-9
This directly contrasts with the Catholic principle of "Faith and good works yield justification."


Right. That's true in all of Christianity. The only difference is that Catholics are supposed to confess their sins to God, with the intermediary of a priest to help pray for you. Remember, the priest isn't doing the forgiving. Catholics do not need to do any specific good works in order to get to heaven. You may be under the impression that the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy are necessary in order to be a good Catholic. But they are merely ways to put faith into action. They are examples of things that a good Christian should do. If you are doing all these things, you're likely on the right track.

Ian wrote:
Sola scriptura: The Bible is the only & inspired Word of God.


Also true, but some Catholics take into account the human nature of the physical authors of the Bible. But that belongs in the Creation vs. Evolution thread.

Ian wrote:
Solus Christus: Only Christ can bring salvation, not Mary, the saints (though I do respect them for living extraordinary lives for Christ) or priests. "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."-John 3:16


Still no problem here. Again, for the fourth time now, Catholics do NOT believe that Mary or the Saints can bring salvation. It's a matter of having people holy enough to remember forever. They did such great things that we remember and venerate them. Mary, especially, was holy enough for God to single her out as the mother of Jesus. That deserves SOME recognition, at least. We don't worship them, we ask them to help US worship God.

Ian wrote:
Sola gratia: Again, salvation comes through grace alone.


See above. ;)

Ian wrote:
Soli Deo gloria: All the glory is to God alone; He died on the Cross as Jesus & grants us the faith which saves us from this atonement. Therefore, He is the only one we should worship, not the Pope or priests. Again, I do respect these people, but can't worship them.


Again, see above. But who's been telling you that we worship the Pope or priests? That's just ludicrous. Do you worship your minister or pastor or whatever? No, so why would we. Again, it's just God.

Also, check out this site. Give it a look. It provides more detailed explanations and arguments. Hope that helps.

Phew. That took forever to write, man. :p
Author:  IantheGecko [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Why do we need help worshipping God? I don't understand that.

As for the "worshipping" of priests, the saints, & Mary, I'm sorry for taking that wrong. I just don't quite grasp all the glory given to the saints. However, some Catholics believe anyone can perform a miracle through fasting, prayer, atonement, & penance--again, more good works--and if her or she is free of sin. Since "we all have sinned & fall short of the glory of God", this is impossible. Therefore, I don't believe saints are as glorious as they are made out to be.
Author:  What's Her Face [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'll agree with every one of JTTC's points, and I'll add these too, and hopefully answer your question about the saints.

Ian wrote:
Sola scriptura: The Bible is the only & inspired Word of God.


Luther was refering to the Catholic Magistrum when he said this, but he misinterpreted what the Magistrum's official role was: it isn't to add its own teachings to the Bible's, it's to interpret the Bible for the masses. Keep in mind, in olden days high illiteracy prevented most people from reading the word of God themselves, much less to understand it, so it needed to be made more digestable. And this is the Magistrum's duty. Today in the West, maybe, this practice has become redundant. But don't Protestant preachers do the same - don't they take what's in the Bible, and present it in a way that their followers can relate to? That's basically what it comes down to.

Ian wrote:
Solus Christus: Only Christ can bring salvation, not Mary, the saints (though I do respect them for living extraordinary lives for Christ) or priests. "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."-John 3:16


The saints are more presented as role models, if you will, rather than objects of worship. The idea is that Christains can look upon the lives of the saints and try to emulate their goodness and personal sacrifice in their own day-to-day lives. And Mary, as I said before, is the personification of God's work. However, I might agree that it's a bit iffy to directly pray to Mary and the saints, I don't know.

Ian wrote:
Sola gratia: Again, salvation comes through grace alone.
Luther was making a bit of a risky assumption here - thinking he knew about how God judges humanity. Luther said that Man's efforts is worthless before God, because the most pious person in the world is no match for God's holiness. This contradicts what Jesus said: that in order to be with him in the kingdom of heaven, you must have faith in him. This implies that you need to take an active role in your worship, rather than just rely on God's grace.
Author:  Jitka [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ian wrote:
Why do we need help worshipping God?


OK, I phrased that wrong. I should have written something along the lines of "They're praying for you alongside you." Moral support can never hurt.

As for the thing with miracles, it's not saints performing the miracles. It's God acting through them, because they are holy enough and have dedicated themselves enough to Him that He decides they're worthy.

EDIT: Simulpost'd with WHF.
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ian, we ALL need help in worshipping God. That is why God gave us the gift of the Holy Christian Church, and also why he commands us not to forsake the ekklesia. We are Christ's Body, which means that without each other, we wither and die. The difference between the RC and the Protestant understanding of the communion of the saints is that Protestants tend to extend that fellowship only to the living, whereas RC's believe that the dead are still a part of it.

(Personally, I do not believe the dead can be that aware of the living. I do not believe that St. Christopher can actually hear the prayer requests of ten million drivers at once. And, I'd be willing to bet, he'd rather us take that request to someone who can better handle it - Christ himself).

I also do not think you quite grasp the Roman Catholic understanding of the saints rightly. Roman Catholics do not regard the saints as sinless. They do, however, regard them as examples of Christian faithfulness. It is essentially the same when Protestants hail Martin Luther as the father of the Reformation, or Billy Graham as the great evangelist of our age. It might be slightly more powerful to the Roman Catholic, because almost all the great saints have some miracle associated with them. But then again, did not St. Peter and St. Paul have plenty of miracles in their time? Why should we think miracles stopped when John finished writing his gospel? (and no, I am not charismatic).

In short, my own experience of Roman Catholicism, which includes personal acquaintances with priests, deacons, nuns, and chaplains, is that most of what modern American protestants consider to be Roman Catholicism is a straw man. They tend to exaggerate the misguided piety of a few, rather than what the RC church actually teaches and believes. And, as much as I hate to admit it, a good chunk of that is the fault of us Lutherans.

But I say this as someone who has also been on the receiving end of that kind of criticism. I once knew a very pious Baptist lady who was constantly criticizing some of the liturgical elements of my own faith, not realizing how dear those elements were to me. Why? Because to her, anything that looked even remotely Roman Catholic must be evil. And I have also had Baptist friends who argued vehemently against my faith in the Sacraments, even though I was able to demonstrate my faith from the Scriptures themselves.

But how would that look if the tables were turned? I mean, what if I were to criticize nondenominational churches have absolutely no respect for the Sacraments? Or that they do not take seriously the Scriptures, when the Scriptures say that we are supposed to be confessing our sins before people? Or that they are heretics because they do not confess the Creeds?

Now I am not making these claims at all. I have dear friends who are nondenominational Christians. Except maybe that part about the Sacraments. I do feel that most modern protestants don't take the Sacraments seriously enough. But my point is that, while there may be plenty for us protestants to complain about regarding Roman Catholicism, there's also plenty that could be complained about modern protestants as well. In fact, the reason I'm Lutheran is because I feel we embody the best of both catholicism and protestantism. But that's just me.

Jitka: the reason God performed miracles through the saints is that he was demonstrating MERCY through them. A saint's holiness is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the saints themselves would tell us that (in fact, many of them did--just read some of their prayers).

WHF: Luther was not making assumptions there. He was essentially saying what God himself had already said on the subject. The Scriptures make it very clear that our salvation depends entirely upon the mercy and the work of God. Even faith itself is a gift of his mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9). And even the good works that Christians do are a gift from God (v. 10). When Peter made his great confession of Jesus as the Son of God, Jesus responded by telling him that his faith was a gift from God (Matthew 16:13-19). Therefore, for the Christian, faith is simply this: trusting in God's mercy. As I have already explained, this does not mean that a Christian does not do good works, but as stated above, the Christian recognizes such good works as not earning favor, but rather being a gift from God. Again, read the prayers of the saints. It's all there.



BTW, Luther's stance on Sola Scriptora was challenged in his debates with John Eck and Desiderius Erasmus, both of whom claimed that Martin Luther did not have the right to interpret Scripture, despite the fact that the Church had ordained him a Doctor of the Church. When Luther challenged them by reiterating the teachings of Scripture, they simply dismissed him as not knowing what he was talking about. It would be like certain people who have tried to claim that I've misinterpreted Scripture, despite the fact that I have ten years of academic study and two degrees in theology.
Author:  seamusz [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
I also do not think you quite grasp the Roman Catholic understanding of the saints rightly. Roman Catholics do not regard the saints as sinless. They do, however, regard them as examples of Christian faithfulness. It is essentially the same when Protestants hail Martin Luther as the father of the Reformation, or Billy Graham as the great evangelist of our age. It might be slightly more powerful to the Roman Catholic, because almost all the great saints have some miracle associated with them. But then again, did not St. Peter and St. Paul have plenty of miracles in their time? Why should we think miracles stopped when John finished writing his gospel? (and no, I am not charismatic).


Just trying to get clarification. Isn't it true that Catholics believe that the Saints have an excess of good works, of which they may give to those who are lacking... thus Catholics may pray to the saints to impart of their excess to those of their relatives and friends (and themeselves I guess) who are short... Im just taking this from memory, so please correct me if Im wrong.
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
That was what SOME Catholics believed in Martin Luther's day. I've never heard that from any of my RC acquaintences. Perhaps Jitka and WHF could better elaborate on that.

But even in Luther's day, there were growing misconceptions about what the RC Church was teaching. What Martin Luther encountered was mostly the teachings of the Nominalists (i.e., a certain sect of scholars) and later the misguided proclamations of the pardoners. But even then, the Nominalists and pardoners did not represent the RC Church as a whole. There were plenty of people in Luther's day opposed to the sale of indulgences. Luther just happened to be the first among them to claim that the Bible was more important than the Pope. THAT'S what got him into trouble. (Of course in that, I do believe he was right).

That, in part, was why there was a Counter-Reformation. There were people in the RC Church who recognized that there were some real internal problems that needed to be addressed. Unfortunately, they also responded by excommunicating and damning the Protestants, which just further widened the gap, leading to conflict and division that has persisted to this day.

My point is that, for the most part, Protestants today are still arguing against Nominalists and pardoners, believing them to represent the RC Church as a whole. But if you want a fair understanding of what a RC believes, you'd be better off actually asking them.
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