The Occult Views, what do you think?

Trev-MUN · **Posted:** Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:29 pm

Didymus: I'm going to try and describe what I was getting at with mentioning "Harry Potter-type magic" here. Tell me if that's what you were talking about when you said (paraphrased) "no sane man would ever believe in that."

I understand what St. John meant and it does make sense ("Don't talk to strangers!"), but magic acts from oneself that do not derive from any sort of demonic power (or perhaps just a non-divine supernatural source in general), I don't really see that as being blasphemous--no more than technology in and of itself is.

Here's how I see it. Magic (either in the form of sheer will or acting with a source of magic/power) is a form of affecting the world around you to help solve problems. Technology is the same way, but instead of sheer will, it is derived from manipulating the world (making tools, etc.).

People have historically had a distrust of technological advance, or of new scientific ideas. Scientists have been persecuted for that. On the other hand, many scientists are religious (how many are a Christian of some kind, I am not sure, but going by world demographics I'd wager a good majority).

This is all hypothetical debate, though. I'm speaking from a "what if" stance, because I find it highly unlikely that Man can perform acts of magic without help from a supernatural source. Such instances of even THAT are rare and arguable.

Still, I don't rule out the possibility of it happening.

The Experimental Film · **Posted:** Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:35 pm

Didymus wrote:

I once said "Hocus Cadabra" to InterruptorJones and he turned into a bat with a human head.

Heh. I saw that Looney Tunes episode.

Abracadabra...
Hocus pocus...
Hocuscadabra...
Abracapocus...

Poor, poor abused vampire.

Didymus · **Posted:** Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:42 pm

Trev:

There's where I disagree. It might work that way in Harry Potter or in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, but my understanding is that most of what people call magic here in the real world involves invocation of spirits of various sorts. As such, technology, which involves manipulation of the material world through the use of devices, is not the same thing.

Quote:

This is all hypothetical debate, though. I'm speaking from a "what if" stance, because I find it highly unlikely that Man can perform acts of magic without help from a supernatural source.

Ah, but that's just it. You hit the nail right on the head with that last statement: man cannot do it on his own. So to work that kind of power, he must have outside help, either from the true God or from any number of false ones.

I liken Wicca to the figure of Merlin in the Arthurian legends and in That Hideous Strength. Merlin was a good guy, no doubt, but the sources of his power were not to be trusted.

Trev-MUN · **Posted:** Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:17 pm

Didymus wrote:

It might work that way in Harry Potter or in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, but my understanding is that most of what people call magic here in the real world involves invocation of spirits of various sorts. As such, technology, which involves manipulation of the material world through the use of devices, is not the same thing

Heh, okay. Just for the record, I have never read Harry Potter or Wheel of Time. I need to state that right now, before people go thinking "Trev's only saying that because he's a fan of (enter fantasy thing here)." I'm getting that vibe and attitude from your responses, and I'd rather not be discounted over the perception that I am some kind of fantasy fanboy.

When I was explaining how I viewed magic and technology, I was trying to invoke the relationship Einstein described between matter and energy. Disregarding that however, magic and technology are two diametrically opposed methods of solving problems.

As it stands, I s'pose we'll have to agree to disagree here. Through my experience with Wiccans and research into real-world concepts of magic I've seen that those who believe magic is real also believe that magic is not necessarily derived from supernatural beings, and can be derived from the self.

But again, while I don't rule out the possibility, I don't think humans are equipped to perform magic, so I'm skeptical of those who say they can do it.

What's Her Face · **Posted:** Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:59 pm

According to some Wiccans, the term magic or magick can be described as any mundane act. So says the WP...

Wikipedia wrote:

Magick is an alternate spelling of magic, coined by Aleister Crowley to differentiate 'the true science of the Magi from all its counterfeits'. In the broadest sense, Magick is any act designed to cause intentional change, for example, changing the channel on your television set. This term is often spelled with a terminal "k" to differentiate it from other practices, such as "stage magic". Magick is not capable of producing "miracles" or violating the physical laws of the universe (i.e. it cannot cause a solar eclipse), although "it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature". His definition treats magic in the context of the paranormal and magic in the context of religion as special cases.

Crowley defined magick as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will". By this, he included "mundane" acts of will as well as ritual magic. In Magick in Theory and Practice, Chapter XIV, Crowley says:

"What is a Magical Operation? It may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will. We must not exclude potato-growing or banking from our definition. Let us take a very simple example of a Magical Act: that of a man blowing his nose."

Some in the Neopagan and occult communities have amended this definition, using the word "magick" exclusively in a paranormal sense. However, Crowley still wields significant influence in these circles.

I have to say, I found that "blowing his nose" bit funny.

seamusz · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:50 pm

Trev-MUN wrote:

The whole shindig with music: I'll just note, it's interesting to see how many Christians are a fan of black metal/death metal (and dress up like Goths, but are out-and-out Christians). A friend of mine thought that kind of thing was hypocritical, or just plain wrong. I suppose it's just a measure of how strong their faith is, I suppose ...

Actually its my understanding Gothic culture is rooted in Christianity, however today its more of a fashion statement gone bad... imo.

I also think that its worth mentioning that the wicca symbol of the pentagram (five sided star in a circle) is not the same symbol as the pentagram for satanism. Much like the upsidedown cross, satanists wear the wicca pentagram, which is used with the five sided star pointing up, upside down, so that the star is pointed down.

<-- Wicca symbol

<-- Satanic symbol

Smorky · **Joined:** Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:26 am **Posts:** 775

Hre's another example of the Satanic pentagram:

InterruptorJones · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:08 pm

seamusz wrote:

<-- Satanic symbol

Not so fast, buddy.

About.com wrote:

A "point down" pentacle is nothing new- nor is it necessarily Satanic when it appears as such. Historical depictions of the pentagram were as likely to be points down as point up- a distinction between one or the other was rarely made by the ancients. Even today, one must not assume a point down pentagram is Satanic, as it is just likely to be Masonic, Wiccan, or simply upside-down. Some inexperienced Wiccans will occasionally claim that a point down pentacle is Satanic, but such a symbol has at times represented the Wiccan horned God, and is still today an emblem of the Second Degree initiation in Gardnerian Wicca. [1]

And the pentagram (both upright and inverted) has been used as a Christian symbol as well.

seamusz · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:22 pm

Hmmmm, I don't believe that I gave any incorrect information, did I? I didn't say that the pentagram wasn't a christain symbo. Nor did I say that satanists used the upside down pentagrams exclusively. I was speaking in generalities. I was aware that the pentagram, upside down and rightside up was also used by Christians. But again, I was just giving a tidbit... not sure why I got jumped on...

InterruptorJones · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:26 pm

seamusz wrote:

Hmmmm, I don't believe that I gave any incorrect information, did I? I didn't say that the pentagram wasn't a christain symbo. Nor did I say that satanists used the upside down pentagrams exclusively. I was speaking in generalities. I was aware that the pentagram, upside down and rightside up was also used by Christians. But again, I was just giving a tidbit... not sure why I got jumped on...

Well, you put a picture of an inverse pentagram and wrote "Satanic symbol" next to it, which seemed pretty black-and-white to me. Though I don't mind generalities, I don't really think that that particular generality is especially valid. I'm sorry you felt jumped upon; that wasn't my intention.

seamusz · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:34 pm

InterruptorJones wrote:

Well, you put a picture of an inverse pentagram and wrote "Satanic symbol" next to it, which seemed pretty black-and-white to me. Though I don't mind generalities, I don't really think that that particular generality is especially valid. I'm sorry you felt jumped upon; that wasn't my intention.

Ahh, I can see why the pentagram with the "satanic symbol" was pretty black and white, I didn't mean it so, I was just illistrating what I said in my post. But I would disagree that the generality is not valid. Most people (probably more than 90%... although I can't back that up

)who use the pentagram symbol, besides kids with a band tshirts who have no idea what it means :rolleyes:

, today is either going to be wicca, or satanic.

DESTROY US ALL! · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:38 pm

seamusz wrote:

besides kids with a band tshirts who have no idea what it means :rolleyes:

,

I like my Rush shirt thank you very much. And i see the point you were trying to make. I have theen the pentagram used in christian context as well as wicca and satanism. But he christian meanings seem to have been lost over the years of Slalyer and Dimmu Borgir.

InterruptorJones · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:42 pm

seamusz wrote:

Most people (probably more than 90%... although I can't back that up

)who use the pentagram symbol, besides kids with a band tshirts who have no idea what it means :rolleyes:

, today is either going to be wicca, or satanic.

*sigh* To my chagrin, you're probably right. I guess I'm just sick of people putting so much stock in symbols and concepts that they've completely misapprehended because of popular culture or whathaveyou. I do it too, I'm sure, but it frustrates me.

seamusz · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:45 pm

destroy_us_all wrote:

I like my Rush shirt thank you very much.

A Rush tshirt is entirley acceptable. Its more of the no-talent, scream-your-head-off-till-your-voice-sounds-like-a-90yr-old-grandma-whos-smoked-for-hear-hole-life
bands that just throw a pentagram on their shirt, cause "evil is cool". you know what I mean.

EDIT:

InterruptorJones wrote:

*sigh* To my chagrin, you're probably right. I guess I'm just sick of people putting so much stock in symbols and concepts that they've completely misapprehended because of popular culture or whathaveyou. I do it too, I'm sure, but it frustrates me.

yes, now we are on the same page. I have noticed that Egyptian symbols have started to take root in the more deep-thinking people who choose not to associate themselves with pop-culture symbols, because they can mean something to an individual with out mass recognition.

Trev-MUN · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:46 pm

InterruptorJones wrote:

*sigh* To my chagrin, you're probably right. I guess I'm just sick of people putting so much stock in symbols and concepts that they've completely misapprehended because of popular culture or whathaveyou. I do it too, I'm sure, but it frustrates me.

It's a bit hard to claim that the Wiccans co-opted the pentagram (theirs is a tradition that goes way back, even if Gardener only promoted its existence in recent times ...), but I would say the Satanists did, and gave it the satanic outlook it has today.

Similar to how the Swastik/Manji has been (and is still) a widely-used religious symbol in Indio-Asia (and as a general good luck charm in Europe), but after the Breakers-Of-Godwin's-Law co-opted it, it is widely seen as a sign of evil.

I'm personally angry, because the Celtic Cross/Sun Cross is being associated with white supremacy in Europe thanks to Neo-Nazi organizations there. Even more sickening is that Canadian white supremacists are trying to co-opt one of Canada's own flags as their symbol, the Red Ensign. WTF?!

Quote:

Actually its my understanding Gothic culture is rooted in Christianity, however today its more of a fashion statement gone bad... imo.

Well, not so quite the concept of death, but more like, the fixation with satanic/evil tones that characterize those types of metal groups (black metal specifically).

Didymus · **Posted:** Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:56 pm

Oh, great! I hope this doesn't become a stigma for the SCarmy. Or the SCair Force.

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:40 pm

seamusz wrote:

Trev-MUN wrote:

The whole shindig with music: I'll just note, it's interesting to see how many Christians are a fan of black metal/death metal (and dress up like Goths, but are out-and-out Christians). A friend of mine thought that kind of thing was hypocritical, or just plain wrong. I suppose it's just a measure of how strong their faith is, I suppose ...

Actually its my understanding Gothic culture is rooted in Christianity, however today its more of a fashion statement gone bad... imo.

I also think that its worth mentioning that the wicca symbol of the pentagram (five sided star in a circle) is not the same symbol as the pentagram for satanism. Much like the upsidedown cross, satanists wear the wicca pentagram, which is used with the five sided star pointing up, upside down, so that the star is pointed down.

<-- Wicca symbol

<-- Satanic symbol

woah, woah woah, you guys got this all wrong about the satanic symbols, and everything, the only symbol that is considered satanic is the Baphomet, which is bassically a goat head in an upside down pentegram. heres a pic:

InterruptorJones · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:44 pm

Choc-O-Lardiac Arrest wrote:

woah, woah woah, you guys got this all wrong about the satanic symbols, and everything, the only symbol that is considered satanic is the Baphomet, which is bassically a goat head in an upside down pentegram. heres a pic:

Yeah, we talked about that already. Let's move on, mmkay?

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:50 am

well, im starting on that Novel i told u guys about, Called the Necronom, and im thinking of posting it in the A&C forum, what u guys think?

Didymus · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:51 am

go for it.

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:54 am

sweet, ill get started on it tonight, right now i gotta make a call to Edwardo about the brownies he sold me, i fed one to my cat, she started Wigging out.

Smorky · **Joined:** Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:26 am **Posts:** 775

Brownies? What kind of brownies?

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:00 am

i dunno, apple crum cake brownies, i think my cat might be allergic.

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