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The ACLU
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4564
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Author:  DanBo [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:51 pm ]
Post subject: 

kaemmerite wrote:
King Nintendoid wrote:
Doesn't that dusty old bible say "Thou shalt not kill"? And any law book for that matter?

Mine isn't quite so dusty. :P

Depends on the translation. My translation uses "murder," not "kill" for that commandment, which changes the meaning...murder is done with malicious intent, killing is not.

It's more of a...*thinks of how to explain it*...Jesus said if you look at someone with malice in your heart, you are guilty of murder. So it's more like, your intentions...so if you shoot someone in self-defense if they're trying to attack you, I'd say that since you weren't doing it with evil intent, merely in self-preservation, that it would be considered "killing" instead of "murder" and therefore not quite so severe.


That's self-defense. If you had the choice, you wouldn't kill someone. If there was a way to render them unconcious or harm them to the point of being non-threatening, most people would do it. However, it is still killing. So, it does put you in a bind, don't it?

Author:  King Nintendoid [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

Plus: how many people actually NOTICE when somebody breaks into their house? And don't people usually run if they are discovered?

If the Second Amendament was necessary, all countries without a similar law would have an incredible death rate. But we don't. We don't exactly need to defend our houses from invaders with GUNS.

By the way: I loathe Chartlon Heston.

Author:  What's Her Face [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

InterruptorJones wrote:
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Ah. Still, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "regulating" drugs. Do you mean tapering the addicts off the drugs one bit at a time? In that case, would that be effective?


He means "regulating" as in government regulation, e.g. the way the government controls the manufacture and distribution of alcohol, tobacco, and both prescription and over-the-counter drugs.


Not quite, I mean more that hard drugs would be regulated in their use, by specialised clinics set up for addicts. It could possibly be effective in reducing crime - as KN says, this method is used in the Netherlands, which has the lowest crime rate in Europe.

As to whether it's effective for addicts, it's harder to say - if you were to legalise drugs, you'd need to set up sister programmes to help existing addicts to get off the drugs too. By weening them slowly off as you say, and using methadone. But at least addicts' risk of overdosing or getting AIDS from dirty needles will be reduced. And if it lures them away from the drug dealers' grip on them, and from prostitution, destitution and crime, it may be worth it.

PS: I'm a she, Interruptor Jones!

Author:  seamusz [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

King Nintendoid wrote:
So you just ignored all the posts debunking your earlier argument? :p


"all the posts"??... I count one. I don't think anyone "debunked" my earlier argument. IJ had a good point and some good info, some which shed some new light on the way I looked at the story, but I think that its not really correct to say that the ACLU is just preserving free speech, since they are pretty picky on which organizations they do and do not help out.

BTW, since when are you picky about letting posts go by unanswered? Youve got like three topics full of those.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
But you don't see the ACLU stepping in to help out the NRA.


I imagine it's because nobody has yet tried to sue the NRA with the aim of suppressing their opinions. Not to mention the NRA has shown that they're more than capable of paying their own lawyers (though, admittedly, for all I know NAMBLA might be rolling in cash).

What's her face wrote:
PS: I'm a she, Interruptor Jones!


Sorry, I was too lazy to go back and check who the Shippinator was replying to, so I took a guess.

Author:  seamusz [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

InterruptorJones wrote:
I imagine it's because nobody has yet tried to sue the NRA with the aim of suppressing their opinions. Not to mention the NRA has shown that they're more than capable of paying their own lawyers (though, admittedly, for all I know NAMBLA might be rolling in cash).


Again a good point, but do you really think that the ACLU would go to bat for an organization like NRA?

Author:  What's Her Face [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
I imagine it's because nobody has yet tried to sue the NRA with the aim of suppressing their opinions. Not to mention the NRA has shown that they're more than capable of paying their own lawyers (though, admittedly, for all I know NAMBLA might be rolling in cash).


Again a good point, but do you really think that the ACLU would go to bat for an organization like NRA?


They've defended even more right-wing groups - like the KKK and neo-Nazi groups - in past lawsuits. The difference is, as IJ says, is that the NRA has the means to defend itself, and the likes of the KKK don't - (that we know of).

Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

What's her face wrote:
Not quite, I mean more that hard drugs would be regulated in their use, by specialised clinics set up for addicts. It could possibly be effective in reducing crime - as KN says, this method is used in the Netherlands, which has the lowest crime rate in Europe.

As to whether it's effective for addicts, it's harder to say - if you were to legalise drugs, you'd need to set up sister programmes to help existing addicts to get off the drugs too. Like weening them slowly off as you say, and using methadon. But at least addicts' risk of overdosing or getting AIDS from dirty needles will be reduced. And if it lures them away from the drug dealers' grip on them, and from prostitution, destitution and crime, it may be worth it.


Hmm...you know, that actually makes some sense.

Author:  seamusz [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

What's her face wrote:
They've defended even more right-wing groups - like the KKK and neo-Nazi groups - in past lawsuits. The difference is, as IJ says, is that the NRA has the means to defend itself, and the likes of the KKK don't - (that we know of).


The KKK incident, correct me if Im wrong, was not defending the group, but was defending the two opposing group's rights to assemble (KKK and CTK). The city they were to assemble in was worried about violence and was not wanting to grant them permission to assemble at the same time. So, imo, ACLU won over common sense.

Im not up on the Nazi issue, but found a really funny spoof article on it.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/onion_acludefends.html

But in any case, socialism is left wing anyway, and although they have many views that could be classified as right wing... way right wing, most of their views are not comparible in the political spectrum... imo. So I wouldn't really classify them as conservative or liberal, I would classify them as loco en la cabeza. That goes for the KKK too.

Author:  What's Her Face [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
The KKK incident, correct me if Im wrong, was not defending the group, but was defending the two opposing group's rights to assemble (KKK and CTK). The city they were to assemble in was worried about violence and was not wanting to grant them permission to assemble at the same time. So, imo, ACLU won over common sense.

Im not up on the Nazi issue, but found a really funny spoof article on it.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/onion_acludefends.html

But in any case, socialism is left wing anyway, and although they have many views that could be classified as right wing... way right wing, most of their views are not comparible in the political spectrum... imo. So I wouldn't really classify them as conservative or liberal, I would classify them as loco en la cabeza. That goes for the KKK too.


Maybe I didn't phrase it right, but I'm thinking the argument still carries - that the ACLU doesn't pick and choose whose rights it wants to defend. Its apparent philosophy is to defend anyone's constitutional human rights - even those of groups who are not easy bedfellows with ACLU's liberalist agenda. That would include the NRA - there's no evidence at the moment to say that ACLU wouldn't offer the NRA their help if needed, which was your original argument, I'm thinking.

Author:  DanBo [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:58 am ]
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Ah, The Onion. A great maker of jokes.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up the topic of Affirmative Action. For those who have felt they have been turned away from jobs because of their race, or who could not get a job based on their educational backgrounds, Affirmative action helps them get jobs they might not get as a result of these differences. Should the ACLU support civil suits defending AA?

Author:  seamusz [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

What's her face wrote:
Maybe I didn't phrase it right, but I'm thinking the argument still carries - that the ACLU doesn't pick and choose whose rights it wants to defend. Its apparent philosophy is to defend anyone's constitutional human rights - even those of groups who are not easy bedfellows with ACLU's liberalist agenda. That would include the NRA - there's no evidence at the moment to say that ACLU wouldn't offer the NRA their help if needed, which was your original argument, I'm thinking.


You might be right, but I think the key is, is that they do have, in your own words, a "liberalist agenda". And this agenda, imo, is harming America.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
You might be right, but I think the key is, is that they do have, in your own words, a "liberalist agenda". And this agenda, imo, is harming America.


Despite their agenda (and I do not agree that it is "liberalist") I do not believe any long-term harm can come of defending the civil liberties of all Americans.

Author:  What's Her Face [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

DanBo wrote:
Anyway, I wanted to bring up the topic of Affirmative Action. For those who have felt they have been turned away from jobs because of their race, or who could not get a job based on their educational backgrounds, Affirmative action helps them get jobs they might not get as a result of these differences. Should the ACLU support civil suits defending AA?


I'm very uneasy about Affirmative Action. Doesn't it just re-enforce the belief that Blacks, Latinos, women, gays etc. are different from the white male heterosexual population, and that they should be treated differently? From what I can see, it's just a cosmetic job - I don't see the lot of women and minorities getting any better because of it. Women still do the same work as men for less pay. And though you'll see minorities in public office (Colin Powell, General Ricardo Sanchez), the board rooms out of the public eye are still predominantly white.

Author:  seamusz [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

InterruptorJones wrote:
Despite their agenda (and I do not agree that it is "liberalist") I do not believe any long-term harm can come of defending the civil liberties of all Americans.



Quote:
ACLU to Attack Florida Sex Offender Laws
Wednesday, August 10, 2005
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By Sam Kastensmidt


On pace with an organization that would object to a Virginia law requiring parental attendance at a nudist camp designed for 11-year-olds, the ACLU has announced that it plans to challenge Florida laws requiring sexual predators to steer clear of schools, parks, day-care centers, libraries, and playgrounds.

Alessandra Meetze, communications director for the ACLU, announced that the organization is considering legal challenges against dozens of city ordinances aimed at protecting children from sexual predators. “We have about forty of these ordinances that are under review,” she said. “Sooner or later, the constitutionality of these ordinances will have to be tested in court.”

These comments came in response to an ordinance passed by Daytona Beach Shores banning convicted sex offenders who have assaulted children younger than 16 from living within 2,500 feet from the nearest school or park.


Quote:
ACLU Wants Lawsuit Reinstated in Teenage Nudist Case
Tuesday, March 22, 2005
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By A. Urti

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is urging a federal appeals court to reinstate a lawsuit which challenges the Virginia law used to ban child nudist camps, calling the law unconstitutional. The ACLU argues that the law violates the children’s right to privacy.

In August 2004, federal judge Richard L. Williams upheld the law in the case, saying that it simply requires a parent, grandparent, or legal guardian to supervise their 11-to 17-year-old children while at the White Tail Park nudist camp.

ACLU Says Williams Erred

According to the ACLU, Judge Williams erred in his August ruling.

“Because of the statute, they [White Tail Park] can’t sponsor any nudist camps for juveniles,” said Rebecca Glenberg of the ACLU before a three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. “That’s injury.”

Glenberg claims that the 2004 camp was cancelled because only a small fraction of the kids signed up for the nudist camp would have been able to have an appropriate adult accompany them.

State Against Nudity

At the time of Williams’ August ruling, Tim Murtaugh, spokesman for Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore, told the Associated Press, “Virginia has an absolute responsibility to see to the safety of its citizens, particularly its children. We know that pedophiles tend to congregate where children are accessible… and we just think this law is common sense.”

John Byrum of the Attorney General’s office recently reiterated that point, saying, “There is no constitutional parental right to send your child to a juvenile nudist camp.” He also stated that the plaintiffs lack standing because, “The Supreme Court has found that nudity is not a protected form of expression by itself.”

The ACLU filed the complaint on behalf of White Tail, the American Association of Nude Recreation-East, three couples who are White Tail members, and their five children.


Quote:
ACLU Targets Louisiana Abstinence Program, Again
Wednesday, January 26, 2005
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By Anthony Urti

The ACLU is claiming that Louisiana is acting in violation of a 2002 court settlement over the administration of a statewide abstinence-education program. Saying that the program “promotes religion,” the ACLU wants the court to hold the state in contempt. In the settlement, the state agreed to tightly monitor spending to ensure that no money would go to “promote religion.”

In November, the ACLU threatened a lawsuit, against the state of Louisiana because a state-run website promoting abstinence mentions God. The ACLU’s threat was that unless the Governor’s Program on Abstinence removes the religious references from its website within 30 days, a lawsuit will be filed in federal court.

The ACLU now claims, that in spite of the agreement, the website continues to feature “religious” material.

Linking Does Not Violate Agreement

In December, Governor Kathleen Blanco and her attorney, Terry Ryder, issued a statement in which they announced that merely linking to other abstinence-related websites with religious content is not a violation of the settlement.

2002 Ruling

U.S. District Court Judge Thomas Porteous Jr. found in July 2002 that some public grants from the abstinence program under former Governor Mike Foster, were being used to purchase Bibles and religious tapes, thus “promoting religion,” according to the ACLU.

A spokesman for Governor Blanco, Roderick Hawkins, said that in spite of believing that they are in full compliance with the settlement, state attorney’s are reviewing the ACLU’s claim.

Quote:
Phoenix Requires Porn Filters in Libraries, ACLU Up In Arms
Wednesday, September 22, 2004
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By Sam Kastensmidt


After experiencing the tragic effects of pornography, the city of Phoenix, Arizona, has issued a ban on internet pornography in the city’s public libraries. Not surprisingly, the ACLU is planning to challenge the ban.

In Response to Tragedy

Phoenix libraries will now be forced to install pornography filters on their computers, which will prevent perverts from accessing child pornography at the taxpayer’s expense. Last month, a convicted child molester was arrested, and he admitted that he had been downloading sexually provocative images of young children at the public library.

As a result, city officials decided to implement the nation’s toughest law prohibiting pornography in public libraries. Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon believes that this law will help to eliminate much of the “filth” that has gone unnoticed for too long. “All porn should be filtered out and this policy does that. The convicted child molester was simply the last straw… I have been working on this since I was a city councilman five years ago, and it is fair to ask what took us so long. I assumed, out of ignorance, that we were already adequately filtering. With all the media attention, this thing moved like light speed.”

ACLU Plans to Fight the New Ban

Of course, the morally bankrupt American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has already announced plans to challenge the new law. “We have heard from people who are concerned about this,” said Eleanor Eisenberg, executive director of the ACLU of Phoenix. “We have several possible plaintiffs. This will end up in the U.S. Supreme Court.”

Protecting Children vs. Catering to Perverts

Legal scholars are already noting that the ban may face difficulties in light of the Supreme Court’s recent 5-4 decision, which struck down the Child Online Protection Act (COPA). COPA would not have banned online pornography; rather, it sought to punish anyone aiming to distribute pornographic material to children. This law would have required adults to use some form of online registration or access codes to enter websites with pornographic content, and it would have slapped violators with fines up to $50,000 if they purposefully provided children with pornographic material deemed easily accessible and “harmful to minors.”

Phoenix Mayor Depending on “Library Filters” Precedent

Only one year earlier, the Supreme Court issued a 6-2 decision in the case of United States v. American Library Association that allowed the federal government to require pornography filters in public libraries. In the June 2003 decision, Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote, “Congress has wide latitude to attach conditions to the receipt of federal assistance in order to further its policy objectives.”

Mayor Gordon believes this precedent will protect the city’s new law. “The (U.S.) Supreme Court ruling reaffirmed that porn is protected speech under the First Amendment, but it didn’t rule that city libraries must provide access to porn,” he said. “You don’t see pornographic books and magazines on library shelves. We’re confident we will win any court challenge to the new policy. It is the right thing to do and our attorneys agree, so we will prevail in court.”


Civil liberties?

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
Civil liberties?


Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

In the future, please link to long passages instead of pasting them.

Author:  seamusz [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

So we should support the rights of Pedophiles to live as close to elementary schools as they want?

We should allow childeren to attend nudist camps (why are there nudist camps in the first place? This is not a civil liberty.)

And how is it a right to view pornography in a library, using public funds to support this distructive habits, and exposing the public to offensive material?

The third article, I can see how you could support that, although I stand that it isn't hurting people, or violating civel liberties, to mention God in conjunction with an abstinence program.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:48 pm ]
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If you could point us to some articles from respected news sources (sorry, the "Center for Reclaiming America" doesn't make the cut) that actually describe what these cases are about, rather than ones that skip the facts and go straight for scary phrases ("the tragic effects of pornography"!), name calling ("perverts"!), and scare-quotes ("promoting religion," "promoting religion," "promoting religion"!), I'd be willing to discuss the merits of these cases. You've made it clear with the sources you've cited, however, that your opinions regrettably aren't based in fact but rather the manipulations and vitriol of writers with an agenda rather than an interest in reporting fact.

Author:  DanBo [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:18 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
So we should support the rights of Pedophiles to live as close to elementary schools as they want?

Sexual offenders aren't going to be supported no matter where you go, (except maybe the large economy for stealing children in tsunami-torn countries...but that's another disturbing issue). Yet then again, people do commit mistakes, and are expected to return to normalcy after leaving the correctional institutions. They have many rules in place for sexual predators and child molestors, like they have to go to every house in the neighborhood and get signatures from every household claiming they know a sex offender is in their domain.
The whole point is that we are trusting our penal system. The same goes for a robber. Let's say someone robs a store, and gets caught, and goes to prison. Maybe he/she leavers prison a changed person, maybe not. Either way, many convicted robbers cannot find jobs, housing, or get credit because of their record.
Either trust that our correctional system works, or go about changing it to compensate for the fact it doesn't work. But don't punish the convicts after their penalty is over. If you don't trust them, keep them in prison, force them into house arrest, whatever. You'll just have to support raising taxes to fund the already massive correctional system.

Author:  seamusz [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

InterruptorJones wrote:
If you could point us to some articles from respected news sources (sorry, the "Center for Reclaiming America" doesn't make the cut) that actually describe what these cases are about, rather than ones that skip the facts and go straight for scary phrases ("the tragic effects of pornography"!), name calling ("perverts"!), and scare-quotes ("promoting religion," "promoting religion," "promoting religion"!), I'd be willing to discuss the merits of these cases. You've made it clear with the sources you've cited, however, that your opinions regrettably aren't based in fact but rather the manipulations and vitriol of writers with an agenda rather than an interest in reporting fact.


Show me an unbiased news source, and Ill get the articles for you.

To DanBo: The prison system is messed up, I agree. But there is a huge difference between a convicted theif and a convicted sexual offender. I have worked with sexual offenders for a number of years, and can tell you that sexual crimes are very different than other crimes. I worked with youth offenders, of which there is a very high rehabilitation rate. However, with youth offenders, Pedophillia is one of the most difficult behavior to rehabilitate. Now lets talk about adults, of which there is a very low success rate of rehabilitation in general, compounded with the offence of pedophillia which is even more difficult to get out of ones system. It is just smart to limit the places where they may and may not go. They gave up their freedom to live where they want when they chose to offend little children in the most dispicable way imaginable.

Author:  King Nintendoid [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
So we should support the rights of Pedophiles to live as close to elementary schools as they want?


They have the right to live there, as long as those living nearby are notified (as we do here)

seamuzs wrote:
We should allow childeren to attend nudist camps (why are there nudist camps in the first place? This is not a civil liberty.)

Ow, it is most certainly a civil liberty: the very same that allows to to attend church.

seamuzs wrote:
And how is it a right to view pornography in a library, using public funds to support this distructive habits, and exposing the public to offensive material?

Pornography can be labeled as art. Secondly, I have yet to hear a single negative impulse of pornography on people. (except for the fact that if you take it away, rape statistics go through the roof)

seamuzs wrote:
The third article, I can see how you could support that, although I stand that it isn't hurting people, or violating civel liberties, to mention God in conjunction with an abstinence program.

Asbstincence is bullcrap to begin with. I don't think the government OR learning institutions should promote such a thing.

Author:  What's Her Face [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

King Nintendoid wrote:
I have yet to hear a single negative impulse of pornography on people. (except for the fact that if you take it away, rape statistics go through the roof)


???(?)??? Wha?! Rape is most certainly not caused by the absence of pornography. Rape is used as an act of violence - it's not motivated by a simple sexual urge, it's motivated by a desire of the rapist to feel powerful, to degrade their victims, and/or enact some kind of obscure revenge.

Author:  King Nintendoid [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, that too. :)

Author:  What's Her Face [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

No way, man. Absence of porn NOT EQUALS rape statistics rise. Unless you've got some solid evidence to the contrary...?

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
Show me an unbiased news source, and Ill get the articles for you.


seamusz, I didn't say unbiased, I said respected.

King Nintendoid, I really wish you'd stop posting in the R&P forum. Even when you agree with people you somehow manage to diminish their arguments.

Author:  DanBo [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

TIME Magazine, BBC News, Meet the Press, NBC Nightly News, Chicago Sun-Times, and Philadelphia Inquirer are good sources. Just don't quote FOX News. Ever. It's like watching people lie to themselves 24/7.

Author:  seamusz [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, those are all great unbiast sources. :rolleyes:

EDIT: sorry IJ, didn't see your post.

IJ, The site that those articles came from is obviously very bias. My apologies, but its a convenient place to get info on the goings on of the ACLU, and although the journalism is bias, the base raw information is legitimate and all the stories referrence more "respectable" news sources.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:18 am ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
the base raw information is legitimate and all the stories referrence more "respectable" news sources.


So why didn't you link to or mention any of those sources when posting your long passages or, for that matter, why didn't you post passages from the respectable sources instead?

Author:  DanBo [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:47 am ]
Post subject: 

seamusz wrote:
Yeah, those are all great unbiast sources. :rolleyes:


Unbias? No. Nothing ever is. Respectable? Definitely.
But if you refuse to watch these programs or read these papers because of a "liberal lean," I'm sorry, that's dumb. I do watch FOX news to see the other side, and frankly, the way they present the news, as do many of the other 24-hour news channels (including the 'liberal' ones), are sloppy, unprofessional and leave way too much to opinion, not fact. Bill O'Reilly, Al Franken, Tucker Carlson...they aren't the news. They are pundits, commentators, and if taken seriously, well...just don't take them seriously.

I can't stand it when someone has one type of source they trust infallibly, because "all the others are biased." Well guess what. If that news source you are reading isn't biased to you, but every other news source out there is, guess what? That means it's biased. Just in your direction.

I basically have one view: If it has the words "progression," "America," "forward," or "concerned" in the source's title, I am very skeptical.
Like "Center for Reclaiming America" or "Move on America" or "Concerned Citizens for American Progression". Those words are usually a red flag for lobbyists or purposely biased content. Give these types of articles the hairy eyeball, because they'll push negativity towards one side or the other.

Author:  King Nintendoid [ Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:31 am ]
Post subject: 

InterruptorJones wrote:
King Nintendoid, I really wish you'd stop posting in the R&P forum. Even when you agree with people you somehow manage to diminish their arguments.


And other people DON'T? :p

Quote:
"liberal lean,"


LIberal means right-winger where I'm from :p

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