Homestar Runner Wiki Forum :: View topic - Can (a Christian) God Be?

The crux of my own theology is not creation, but the atonement. What convinces me that there is a God is not a logical argument, but a historical fact: that God became a man, and being found in the likeness of mortal men, suffered death on a cross, then rose again from the dead on the third day.

I hear that once the rapture comes that then will come the only time for people who truely honist to God and deserved to go to heven in the first place but either died in their sin or wern't saved.

I think that you're forgetting that there is a devil, who controls the non-believers.

And ask yourself this: Why would a God, who gave his Son for believers, save people who do not believe. He wants you to be saved, but that utimately is your decision.

He could, but why should he? The way you make it sound, God MUST because he CAN, and somehow his love is supposed to completely override his justice. Maybe the plain and simple truth is that he doesn't love everyone the same. "Jacob I love, Esau I hated."

Upsilon wrote:

Well, according to what you said in the Religious Affiliations topic, you believe that God hates me because I am an atheist.

Actually, he didn't say that. One of the best ways to lose an argument is to make erroneous assumptions that the other party will focus on instead of your actual argument.

Thanks, IJ. I certainly don't remember telling Upsilon that God hates him.

When God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated," he did not mean that he intended to destroy Esau out of sheer spite. As a matter of fact, he cared for Esau and provided all sorts of good things for him, too. In the context, God was saying that Jacob was his chosen one, not Esau--chosen to be the father of his nation.

One of the things I keep noticing about God over and over again is that he simply is not fair. Good, honest, hard-working people like Esau end up with the short end of the stick (well, not terribly short--God did bless him), while sleasy, good-for-nothing criminal types like Jacob (whose very name is a synonym for "deceiver") get all the breaks. Look who Jesus liked to hang out with. The religious types? No. With prostitutes, drunks, IRS personnel, thieves, etc. Heck, the only people to recognize Jesus as the Son of God during his life were Peter (who quickly forgot what it meant), a Roman Soldier, and a thief. Even one of the greatest saints in history, the Apostle Paul, was a murderer and a destroyer of the Church. I'm not sure why this is, except that maybe he gave himself more for people who need him more.

For that reason, I think it's highly inconsistent for someone to say God hates anyone because of particular issues in their life. I have learned first hand, for example, that God loves drug addicts. I have seen a man cry over stealing from his mother to buy drugs. Yet I have also seen God's hand on his life, bringing him to the Dom and motivating him to stay clean. And his is just one of a dozen or so stories I could tell you.

So maybe God even loves that godhatesfags dude. It's just that he's so busy proclaiming hatred, he can't see it so clearly. That to me is sad. But God will not force us to see what we do not wish to see; this man refuses to see God's unconditional love for others, so he will not see it for himself.

One thing I find odd about Christianity is: God can do anything. Right? I assume we're all agreed on that point. If God wants us to be saved, he can save us all, delete Hell and award us all eternal bliss with no hassle at all. So why did he bother letting his only son die on the cross "that we might be saved"? You can't tell me that the omnipotent God needs to crucify someone in order to prevent people from going to Hell. What was the actual point of Jesus' crucifixion?

D&C 1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

If God wants us to be saved, he can save us all, delete Hell and award us all eternal bliss with no hassle at all.

On a note related to what everyone is talking about, I don't think I have the same concept of Hell as alot of people. I think very few people will end up in hell forever. I think that there will be a lot of people who will not have repented, who don't accept Jesus, who will end up suffering a great deal for a long time for their sins. But I believe that time is finite. And when they have suffered enough to pay the price of justice, then God will take them in and they will live forever in a state of happiness much greater than we can know here.

I don't know if you have read C.S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce" can be found here

racerx_is_alive wrote:

I don't know if you have read C.S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce" can be found here

I really like the way he portrays Hell. It isn't that we are cursed there forever, more like we choose to stay. We are attached to our sins (either because we think they make us happy, or because we don't think we can be forgiven for them... or any other number of reasons) and so we don't "get into heaven".

The choice is always there for you to change (accept Jesus, repent, however you feel about it).[/u]

Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain.

The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope.

I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda guy, but to me, Hell is a serious matter.

What was the actual point of Jesus' crucifixion?

I know that people would like to look at Hell like a place that'd be "cool" or whatever. I mean...how bad can it be? Metallica's gonna be there! Just kidding...seriously though. The bible portrays Hell in a completely different light.

Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain.

The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope.

I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda guy, but to me, Hell is a serious matter.

IJ: I wanted to apologize for some rather nasty things I said about you.

a place you are * to forever

That's "d@mned", in case everybody was confused. The forum does a little censorship in its spare time.

Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain.

The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope.

No no, thank you Didymus for listening. You know, I thought the next person who was going to reply was going to say something bad about me, but you change that. Thank you.

Yes I know Hell is suppose to be about punishment and all, I was just saying what if it was something different.

we are like family here.

Quote:

Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister 3 times decended

Um, I thought IJ was male. Well, if you're right, that would explain why he called Gemini "cute".

If he had created a race that couldn't sin, we would be puppets. And I sure as hell know I'd rather sin than be a puppet. Is that original enough for you? :mrgreen:

Author:	Upsilon [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:19 am ]
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One thing I find odd about Christianity is: God can do anything. Right? I assume we're all agreed on that point. If God wants us to be saved, he can save us all, delete Hell and award us all eternal bliss with no hassle at all. So why did he bother letting his only son die on the cross "that we might be saved"? You can't tell me that the omnipotent God needs to crucify someone in order to prevent people from going to Hell. What was the actual point of Jesus' crucifixion? Didymus wrote: The crux of my own theology is not creation, but the atonement. What convinces me that there is a God is not a logical argument, but a historical fact: that God became a man, and being found in the likeness of mortal men, suffered death on a cross, then rose again from the dead on the third day. That is not a fact. Although there are indeed reliable records confirming Jesus' existence, the only contemporary record which tells us that he rose from the dead is the Bible. Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote: I hear that once the rapture comes that then will come the only time for people who truely honist to God and deserved to go to heven in the first place but either died in their sin or wern't saved. Can I have a Biblical source? fahooglewitz1077 wrote: I think that you're forgetting that there is a devil, who controls the non-believers. I have to say I find that a tad bit confusing. I'm pretty certain that I'm the one in control of my body, not Satan. So unless I'm actually the Devil and don't know it, I think that sentence needs to be revised. Quote: And ask yourself this: Why would a God, who gave his Son for believers, save people who do not believe. He wants you to be saved, but that utimately is your decision. You answered your question for me in the next sentence: because he wants me to be saved. It is not ultimately my decision whether I go to heaven or hell, because if God wants to override my decision, he can send me to either at a whim. You make it sound like I have some supreme power over God Almighty. Didymus wrote: He could, but why should he? The way you make it sound, God MUST because he CAN, and somehow his love is supposed to completely override his justice. Maybe the plain and simple truth is that he doesn't love everyone the same. "Jacob I love, Esau I hated." Hmm, this is a new angle. In fact, because I don't believe in Jesus, God hates me and wants me to burn in Hell. Interesting, to say the least... I'm going to give that some thought.

Author:	Didymus [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:45 pm ]
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I don't remember putting it quite that way, Upsilon. I was just suggesting perhaps another way to try to understand why God's mercy does not seem to extend to everyone. Another look at that whole "Many are called, but few are chosen" aspect. Many are called, meaning that God's mercy does extend to everyone, but few are chosen, meaning that his mercy only actually effects some, not all. Why is that? I'm not sure. Life just doesn't fit together as perfectly as I want sometimes. I should probably quote my response to this same remark that was on another thread.

Author:	Didymus [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:48 pm ]
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InterruptorJones wrote: Upsilon wrote: Well, according to what you said in the Religious Affiliations topic, you believe that God hates me because I am an atheist. Actually, he didn't say that. One of the best ways to lose an argument is to make erroneous assumptions that the other party will focus on instead of your actual argument. Didymus wrote: Thanks, IJ. I certainly don't remember telling Upsilon that God hates him. When God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated," he did not mean that he intended to destroy Esau out of sheer spite. As a matter of fact, he cared for Esau and provided all sorts of good things for him, too. In the context, God was saying that Jacob was his chosen one, not Esau--chosen to be the father of his nation. One of the things I keep noticing about God over and over again is that he simply is not fair. Good, honest, hard-working people like Esau end up with the short end of the stick (well, not terribly short--God did bless him), while sleasy, good-for-nothing criminal types like Jacob (whose very name is a synonym for "deceiver") get all the breaks. Look who Jesus liked to hang out with. The religious types? No. With prostitutes, drunks, IRS personnel, thieves, etc. Heck, the only people to recognize Jesus as the Son of God during his life were Peter (who quickly forgot what it meant), a Roman Soldier, and a thief. Even one of the greatest saints in history, the Apostle Paul, was a murderer and a destroyer of the Church. I'm not sure why this is, except that maybe he gave himself more for people who need him more. For that reason, I think it's highly inconsistent for someone to say God hates anyone because of particular issues in their life. I have learned first hand, for example, that God loves drug addicts. I have seen a man cry over stealing from his mother to buy drugs. Yet I have also seen God's hand on his life, bringing him to the Dom and motivating him to stay clean. And his is just one of a dozen or so stories I could tell you. So maybe God even loves that godhatesfags dude. It's just that he's so busy proclaiming hatred, he can't see it so clearly. That to me is sad. But God will not force us to see what we do not wish to see; this man refuses to see God's unconditional love for others, so he will not see it for himself.

Author:	Stu [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:26 pm ]
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Upsilon wrote: One thing I find odd about Christianity is: God can do anything. Right? I assume we're all agreed on that point. If God wants us to be saved, he can save us all, delete Hell and award us all eternal bliss with no hassle at all. So why did he bother letting his only son die on the cross "that we might be saved"? You can't tell me that the omnipotent God needs to crucify someone in order to prevent people from going to Hell. What was the actual point of Jesus' crucifixion? I don't know how other people here feel about this, but this is the way I understand it. I don't believe that God can save everyone. (Now this quote may not mean much to any non-LDS folks, but to those who are...) Quote: D&C 1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Because God is just, he can't and won't tolerate sin at all. That is the reason for Jesus' crucifixion (and more importantly, atonement). So in a sense, because everyone sins (and by doing so guarantee a spot in Hell) Jesus needed to be. Quote: If God wants us to be saved, he can save us all, delete Hell and award us all eternal bliss with no hassle at all. Again, according to what I believe this was an option. Of the two plans proposed during the pre-existence, this was the one that got rejected. Lucifer (Satan) proposed that we live here with no choice between good and evil (so everyone would be saved). More important then that was who the glory would go to... him. Jesus proposed that we would be sent to earth with the choice of good and evil, and the glory would be given to the Father. But by giving us choice, we would sin. Due to that we would need someone to save us (because God is just), that is where the atonement and crucifixion came into play. At least, that's what I think.

Author:	racerx_is_alive [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:37 pm ]
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Quote: One thing I find odd about Christianity is: God can do anything. Right? I assume we're all agreed on that point. If God wants us to be saved, he can save us all, delete Hell and award us all eternal bliss with no hassle at all. So why did he bother letting his only son die on the cross "that we might be saved"? You can't tell me that the omnipotent God needs to crucify someone in order to prevent people from going to Hell. What was the actual point of Jesus' crucifixion? God is a just god, and he is also an unchangeable god. God is omnipotent, but if he were to use that power to erase all the consequences of all of our actions, he wouldn't be just anymore. If he weren't just anymore, then he would be a changeable god, and how can we have faith in a changeable god? The atonement of Jesus Christ provides us a way to escape the penalty of our sins, but that is only because his suffering paid that penalty as long as we give our sins up to him. Jesus paid the demands of justice, so that mercy could be extended to us. On a note related to what everyone is talking about, I don't think I have the same concept of Hell as alot of people. I think very few people will end up in hell forever. I think that there will be a lot of people who will not have repented, who don't accept Jesus, who will end up suffering a great deal for a long time for their sins. But I believe that time is finite. And when they have suffered enough to pay the price of justice, then God will take them in and they will live forever in a state of happiness much greater than we can know here. However, I believe that those who do follow him in this life, who repent of their sins and keep the commandments, those will be blessed to an even greater degree, and live in a state of joy that those others will ever know. God loves us all, and wants us all to be happy. I believe the vast majority of us will end up eventually in a state of happiness. Some people will just have more joy than others.

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Author:	Stu [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:24 pm ]
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racerx_is_alive wrote: On a note related to what everyone is talking about, I don't think I have the same concept of Hell as alot of people. I think very few people will end up in hell forever. I think that there will be a lot of people who will not have repented, who don't accept Jesus, who will end up suffering a great deal for a long time for their sins. But I believe that time is finite. And when they have suffered enough to pay the price of justice, then God will take them in and they will live forever in a state of happiness much greater than we can know here. I don't know if you have read C.S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce" can be found here I really like the way he portrays Hell. It isn't that we are cursed there forever, more like we choose to stay. We are attached to our sins (either because we think they make us happy, or because we don't think we can be forgiven for them... or any other number of reasons) and so we don't "get into heaven". The choice is always there for you to change (accept Jesus, repent, however you feel about it).[/u]

Author:	InterruptorJones [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:30 pm ]
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Stu wrote: I don't know if you have read C.S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce" can be found here Syntax error. But that sounds like a very interesting read. In fact, just last night I started reading The Magician's Nephew (I've never read the Narnia books, so I'm reading them chronologically -- I just bought a copy of Prince Caspian off eBay to replace the one missing from my set.) But I'll add this Great Divorce to my mental list.

Author:	AgentSeethroo [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:52 pm ]
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Stu wrote: racerx_is_alive wrote: On a note related to what everyone is talking about, I don't think I have the same concept of Hell as alot of people. I think very few people will end up in hell forever. I think that there will be a lot of people who will not have repented, who don't accept Jesus, who will end up suffering a great deal for a long time for their sins. But I believe that time is finite. And when they have suffered enough to pay the price of justice, then God will take them in and they will live forever in a state of happiness much greater than we can know here. I don't know if you have read C.S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce" can be found here I really like the way he portrays Hell. It isn't that we are cursed there forever, more like we choose to stay. We are attached to our sins (either because we think they make us happy, or because we don't think we can be forgiven for them... or any other number of reasons) and so we don't "get into heaven". The choice is always there for you to change (accept Jesus, repent, however you feel about it).[/u] I know that people would like to look at Hell like a place that'd be "cool" or whatever. I mean...how bad can it be? Metallica's gonna be there! Just kidding...seriously though. The bible portrays Hell in a completely different light. Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain. The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope. I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda guy, but to me, Hell is a serious matter.

Author:	racerx_is_alive [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:16 pm ]
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Quote: Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain. The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope. I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda guy, but to me, Hell is a serious matter. Yeah, I think you are definately right. I hope you didn't get the impression that I think that think paying the price for our sins would be quick or easy. LIke Stu said, this scripture might not mean much to everyone, but I think it describes what I believe pretty clearly D&C 19: 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. Emphasis added So like you were saying, Hell is a serious matter, where those who will not repent will suffer greater than any of us can now comprehend. I'm just saying that it won't last forever, and that eventually the price will be paid, and we will be forgiven and happy. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that all of us weren't made to be condemned eternally to Hell. Many may have to pass through it, and suffer for a time, but the great majority will eventually will be in a state of happiness.

Author:	Didymus [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:19 pm ]
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I've always preferred the Outer Darkness image of hell. It's the more common one found in the Gospels. I think it better sums up what hell will be like: exclusion from God's presence and grace. The image is that of people who refused to come to a king's party, so the king invited others to enjoy the feast instead. Those are so because they want no part of God's grace in their lives, so they end up spending eternity without it. That's also the image of hell presented in The Great Divorce and also The Last Battle (both by C. S. Lewis). Quote: What was the actual point of Jesus' crucifixion? That God himself was willing to risk, sacrifice, and suffer right alongside human beings. The God I worship does not simply sit far off, disconnected from human experience. He's right there in the middle of it. The incarnation and passion are his way of demonstrating that. Also, there is some ontological significance to it that we, as mere human beings, cannot understand. It is beyond our knowledge. Somehow, his victory was made complete in utter defeat. It's a pattern he very often likes to follow: strength from weakness, good from evil, glory from humiliation, and--dare I say it--life from death. It's this pattern that defies our human understanding and makes God's wisdom foolish to us. IJ: I wanted to apologize for some rather nasty things I said about you.

Author:	Tom [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:19 pm ]
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This reminds me of something someone told me a while ago. I'm not sure who originally came up with the story, but here it is: [Someone] tells the story of a man who dies and is shown both heaven and hell. In hell he sees everyone sitting together at a long table to eat their meal. However, the only utensil each person has to use is a spoon that is so long that it can't fit into the user's mouth. Everyone is starving. Next stop is heaven. Here he sees the same scenario -- people sitting together for a meal at a long table with these enormous spoons. But here everyone uses his long spoon to feed the person across from him. Hell is where people are self-absorbed. When everyone is looking out for each other, that's Heaven. An interesting story. (And I think Barbara Kingsolver used this in a chapter (I think it's #7) of her book The Bean Trees. I never read the book, but I just thought I'd mention a source.)

Author:	Stu [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:20 pm ]
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AgentSeethroo wrote: I know that people would like to look at Hell like a place that'd be "cool" or whatever. I mean...how bad can it be? Metallica's gonna be there! Just kidding...seriously though. The bible portrays Hell in a completely different light. Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain. The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope. I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda guy, but to me, Hell is a serious matter. I agree completely with you (I hope I wasn't portraying otherwise). I just don't think that it is a place you are damned to forever. The people who are going to be there forever are those that have no desire to change (the reason behind the lack of desire could be anything... not wanting to, not seeing any reason to; i.e. lack of hope, etc...) So while the image of the devil standing over people with a whip isn't entirely accurate. Rather then whiping us for punishment, he would be exerting all of his efforts into convincing people that they have no chance of repenting.

Author:	Stu [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:28 pm ]
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InterruptorJones wrote: That's "d@mned", in case everybody was confused. The forum does a little censorship in its spare time. I removed that one... I suppose if it gets abused, it may go back into place.

Author:	dysthymia7 [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:42 pm ]
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AgentSeethroo wrote: Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain. What if Hell wasn't bad at all? What if it was better than heaven? Better as in peace, love, ect. Have you seen the real hell for yourself(excluding bad times where you been in a situation and said "man THIS is Hell")? And what if there isn't a real hell? What if when we all die we just stay in a dark place in our minds with nothing to do and we can't move or anything. Or like other people say, we could reincarnate into someone or something else. Who knows. AgentSeethroo wrote: The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope. "I am no theologian. I don't know who or what is god." But I DO have hope. Some people might say that i don't have faith others say that my fate is depended on god. Makes me feel like salve to god in a way. I DO have faith, but not in "him". I have it in myself, my friends, family, ect. And I definitely know that my fate is depended on him. Does anyone else see FATE as not being able to controll future of YOURSELF? Not being able to change the cataclysmic events that might happen? Well just incase if you don't, I do. I am Skeptic about religion, but not about life. I am going to live a life to its fullest, with my wife, family, friends, and what ever else this world is going to give off to me to enjoy life. Sure there is going to be times were it might see like "HELL" but I know there is a chance for everyone. Untill my time comes, I shall see the real truth, I just don't want to worry my life with depending on "GOD". I don't hate him if he is real or not. I would believe in him, only if I saw him and was able to see that he is worthy of being indoctrinate with religion. But I guess that means that " I HAVE NO FAITH" right? WRONG. Take a look at the definition of faith: 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. Often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs. You don't need to believe in god to have faith, just believe in someone or something. I hate it when people say I have no faith. And if your wondering, yes I am a atheist, meaning I don't believe in ANY god, not just "god" ANY god. I have something called devotion and dignity within my self. And I know, that is good enough for me.

Author:	AgentSeethroo [ Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:09 pm ]
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Fine fine. If you're too confrused, click here.

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Author:	dysthymia7 [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:53 pm ]
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Apropos, I do respect every religion, I do not try to discourage anyone who believes in religion or something else. Even if they make fun of me for not believing in god. I am a nice, gentle, and generous young teenager. I am glad that people have something to look upon, to have faith. I'm just saying that I don't need religion in MY life. That is all.

Author:	Didymus [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:56 pm ]
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Thank you, D-7. I appreciate your openness and honesty.

Author:	dysthymia7 [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:00 pm ]
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No no, thank you Didymus for listening. You know, I thought the next person who was going to reply was going to say something bad about me, but you change that. Thank you.

Author:	AgentSeethroo [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:55 pm ]
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dysthymia7 wrote: No no, thank you Didymus for listening. You know, I thought the next person who was going to reply was going to say something bad about me, but you change that. Thank you. You gots us all wrong, man! While I'd LIKE you to believe what I believe, I'd never ever say anything bad about you simply because you don't live the same way as I do. But I will disagree with one point. Hell cannot be a good place by definition. It's a place of punishment. Like an eternal spankin'.

Author:	dysthymia7 [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:27 pm ]
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AgentSeethroo, don't worry, I was just talking about other people. I am glad that people in this fourm are so friendly. Yes I know Hell is suppose to be about punishment and all, I was just saying what if it was something different.

Author:	Didymus [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:52 pm ]
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Technically, the biblical terms mean "land of death." Sheol from Hebrew can mean either that or the grave. The Greek term "hades" also means "land of death." But for Christians, hope in the afterlife revolves around resurrection, of which perpetual death is the opposite. Again, it's that whole idea about hell being outside the party while everyone else is having a blast. Many Christians today tend to think of heaven and hell not so much as places, but as conditions. The condition of heaven is peace (shalom, irene), love, and joy, and God himself as the source of these things. The condition of hell is the opposite, turmoil, misery, and being cut off from the source of all good things. This doesn't mean that these conditions won't be represented in real places, i.e., manifested in physical realities. After all, the whole point of the resurrection is that heaven will become a place on earth. But about the debate. Keep in mind that these are the same people that go to Stupid Product Rants, This or That, and Word Association and just try to have fun with each other. This debate stuff does get out of hand on occasion, but we are like family here.

Author:	AgentSeethroo [ Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:26 pm ]
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Didymus wrote: we are like family here. Yeah. Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister thrice ascended.

Author:	dysthymia7 [ Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:53 am ]
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You guys are great! Always having something to say or listen and not being stupid or a jerk about it. Just wanted to say that.

Author:	Ingiald The Ill [ Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:41 am ]
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[quote]Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister 3 times decended[/quote] Um, I thought IJ was male. Well, if you're right, that would explain why he called Gemini "cute".

Author:	Tom [ Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:15 am ]
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Ingiald The Ill wrote: Quote: Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister 3 times decended Um, I thought IJ was male. Well, if you're right, that would explain why he called Gemini "cute". Okay Ingiald, what does Jones's gender have anything to do with that? So what if he thinks Gemini is cute? Isn't he entitled to his opinion, whether he be male or female? And I'm pretty sure that AgentSeethroo was joking. You know, playing on the "we are all like family here" that he quoted in his post.

Author:	Bookworm [ Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:57 pm ]
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God created us perfectly, and we screwed up. Simple as that. If he had created a race that couldn't sin, we would be puppets. And I sure as hell know I'd rather sin than be a puppet. Is that original enough for you?

Author:	InterruptorJones [ Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:53 am ]
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Marzipan_and_Carol wrote: If he had created a race that couldn't sin, we would be puppets. And I sure as hell know I'd rather sin than be a puppet. Is that original enough for you? How so? Creating a race without sin is not the same as creating a race without free will. So far as I can tell, sin is not what enables to make choices, it's only what enables us to make evil choices.