Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

A companion to the Homestar Runner Wiki
It is currently Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:41 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 274 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 5:21 am
Posts: 2140
Location: My Backyard
InterruptorJones wrote:
That's "d@mned", in case everybody was confused. The forum does a little censorship in its spare time.


I removed that one... I suppose if it gets abused, it may go back into place.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 140
Location: Chicago
AgentSeethroo wrote:
Hell is a place that is completely devoid of God and his presence. It's a place of darkness and lonliness and pain.


What if Hell wasn't bad at all? What if it was better than heaven? Better as in peace, love, ect. Have you seen the real hell for yourself(excluding bad times where you been in a situation and said "man THIS is Hell")? And what if there isn't a real hell? What if when we all die we just stay in a dark place in our minds with nothing to do and we can't move or anything. Or like other people say, we could reincarnate into someone or something else. Who knows.

AgentSeethroo wrote:
The thing about earth is that God's presence is here. He's here with us, always. Nothing is as bad as being away from God completely, because in God there is hope, and without God, there is NO hope.


"I am no theologian. I don't know who or what is god." But I DO have hope. Some people might say that i don't have faith others say that my fate is depended on god. Makes me feel like salve to god in a way. I DO have faith, but not in "him". I have it in myself, my friends, family, ect. And I definitely know that my fate is depended on him. Does anyone else see FATE as not being able to controll future of YOURSELF? Not being able to change the cataclysmic events that might happen? Well just incase if you don't, I do. I am Skeptic about religion, but not about life. I am going to live a life to its fullest, with my wife, family, friends, and what ever else this world is going to give off to me to enjoy life. Sure there is going to be times were it might see like "HELL" but I know there is a chance for everyone. Untill my time comes, I shall see the real truth, I just don't want to worry my life with depending on "GOD". I don't hate him if he is real or not. I would believe in him, only if I saw him and was able to see that he is worthy of being indoctrinate with religion. But I guess that means that " I HAVE NO FAITH" right?

WRONG.
Take a look at the definition of faith:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. Often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

You don't need to believe in god to have faith, just believe in someone or something. I hate it when people say I have no faith.

And if your wondering, yes I am a atheist, meaning I don't believe in ANY god, not just "god" ANY god. I have something called devotion and dignity within my self. And I know, that is good enough for me.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 140
Location: Chicago
Apropos, I do respect every religion, I do not try to discourage anyone who believes in religion or something else. Even if they make fun of me for not believing in god. I am a nice, gentle, and generous young teenager. I am glad that people have something to look upon, to have faith. I'm just saying that I don't need religion in MY life. That is all.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
Thank you, D-7. I appreciate your openness and honesty.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 140
Location: Chicago
No no, thank you Didymus for listening. You know, I thought the next person who was going to reply was going to say something bad about me, but you change that. Thank you.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
dysthymia7 wrote:
No no, thank you Didymus for listening. You know, I thought the next person who was going to reply was going to say something bad about me, but you change that. Thank you.


You gots us all wrong, man!

While I'd LIKE you to believe what I believe, I'd never ever say anything bad about you simply because you don't live the same way as I do.

But I will disagree with one point. Hell cannot be a good place by definition. It's a place of punishment. Like an eternal spankin'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 140
Location: Chicago
AgentSeethroo, don't worry, I was just talking about other people. I am glad that people in this fourm are so friendly. Yes I know Hell is suppose to be about punishment and all, I was just saying what if it was something different.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
dysthymia7 wrote:
Yes I know Hell is suppose to be about punishment and all, I was just saying what if it was something different.


Well, then it wouldn't be Hell. Hell is a Christian term (at least now; I dunno about historically) which describes the Christian Hell. If Hell were something different, then it would be called.. Sto-Vo-Kor, or something.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
Technically, the biblical terms mean "land of death." Sheol from Hebrew can mean either that or the grave. The Greek term "hades" also means "land of death." But for Christians, hope in the afterlife revolves around resurrection, of which perpetual death is the opposite. Again, it's that whole idea about hell being outside the party while everyone else is having a blast.

Many Christians today tend to think of heaven and hell not so much as places, but as conditions. The condition of heaven is peace (shalom, irene), love, and joy, and God himself as the source of these things. The condition of hell is the opposite, turmoil, misery, and being cut off from the source of all good things. This doesn't mean that these conditions won't be represented in real places, i.e., manifested in physical realities. After all, the whole point of the resurrection is that heaven will become a place on earth.

But about the debate. Keep in mind that these are the same people that go to Stupid Product Rants, This or That, and Word Association and just try to have fun with each other. This debate stuff does get out of hand on occasion, but we are like family here.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
Didymus wrote:
we are like family here.


Yeah. Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister thrice ascended.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:05 am
Posts: 140
Location: Chicago
You guys are great! Always having something to say or listen and not being stupid or a jerk about it. Just wanted to say that.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:41 am 
[quote]Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister 3 times decended[/quote]

Um, I thought IJ was male. Well, if you're right, that would explain why he called Gemini "cute".


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:15 am 
Offline
Resident Deity
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 1252
Location: Elponitnatsnocway
Ingiald The Ill wrote:
Quote:
Little known fact: Jones is my 9th sister 3 times decended


Um, I thought IJ was male. Well, if you're right, that would explain why he called Gemini "cute".

Okay Ingiald, what does Jones's gender have anything to do with that? So what if he thinks Gemini is cute?

Isn't he entitled to his opinion, whether he be male or female?

And I'm pretty sure that AgentSeethroo was joking. You know, playing on the "we are all like family here" that he quoted in his post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:30 am 
Um, sorry. That just seemed kind of weird to me. I'm not saying anything else.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
Fine fine. If you're too confrused, click here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 162
Location: A farm in the land of Florin
God created us perfectly, and we screwed up. Simple as that. If he had created a race that couldn't sin, we would be puppets. And I sure as hell know I'd rather sin than be a puppet. Is that original enough for you? :mrgreen:

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
Marzipan_and_Carol wrote:
If he had created a race that couldn't sin, we would be puppets. And I sure as hell know I'd rather sin than be a puppet. Is that original enough for you? :mrgreen:


How so? Creating a race without sin is not the same as creating a race without free will. So far as I can tell, sin is not what enables to make choices, it's only what enables us to make evil choices.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:52 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Ever changing...
InterruptorJones wrote:
Marzipan_and_Carol wrote:
If he had created a race that couldn't sin, we would be puppets. And I sure as hell know I'd rather sin than be a puppet. Is that original enough for you? :mrgreen:


How so? Creating a race without sin is not the same as creating a race without free will. So far as I can tell, sin is not what enables to make choices, it's only what enables us to make evil choices.


True, but sin is a choice...and if it wasn't...I guess it may come down to a discussion on why God allows sin to exist...

I thought of something a few days ago...this argument may have some holes in it, but I'm going to post it anyway...

What if God has made Himself difficult to understand and follow ON PURPOSE? What if He wants to see which ones of us will be truly faithful to Him and so He's set up (to continue IJ's mouse analogy) a difficult and complicated maze to see which mice are faithful enough to hear Him calling and follow Him.

My argument for why God would set up the world this way? Because He can! Because He's God and He makes all the rules! Because we are simple mortals with only our human reason to guide us and it does not enable us to fully understand an omnipotent being. Think about all the skillions (it's not a real number, I know, it's an Amy number) of people who have lived before us and will live after us...God has had to manage all of that crap! He's had to look out for EACH and EVERY one of us! No wonder some of us think our lives are unfair - maybe the unfairness in our life indirectly leads to something wonderful in someone else's...

But...maybe we're all just going to asplode from a comet hitting the Earth...I still have faith in God...but I admit I don't have any HARDCORE proof.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
At seminary, we talked a lot about the Hidden God. It's basically the idea you just described: that God IS hard to understand. Part of that is the fact He is infinite, and we can only understand a very tiny finite part of who He is. The other part is that He has chosen NOT to reveal more to us.

I'm sure God could speak from the clouds and prove He exists to everyone. Why doesn't He? Sometimes I wish He would. Other times, I wonder if even THAT would make a difference.

That's why I think this Problem of Evil is so unconvincing. It assumes that God MUST act in ways that make perfect sense to human beings, and yet He very frequently does the exact opposite.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
Didymus wrote:
That's why I think this Problem of Evil is so unconvincing. It assumes that God MUST act in ways that make perfect sense to human beings, and yet He very frequently does the exact opposite.


I would agree, but the trouble is that most Christians I discuss this with try to refute the Problem of Evil by saying, "no, his behavior is perfectly rational, even to mere humans!" and then trying to explain it away in the many of the ways we've seen here. But like I said, I agree. If god exists, he absolutely does not make a nit of sense on a human level. Does that mean he can't exist? No.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 2:05 am
Posts: 72
Location: Burlington, OH
AgentSeethroo wrote:
They're not? I was under the impression that atheism was a lack of a religion, not a lack of belief in Christ.


Not entirely. There are Christians who also practice Zen Buddhism, for some reason.

It's not that Atheists don't believe in God. Atheists believe in the non-existence of God. There is no such thing as lack of belief in anything. In order to negate a belief, you have to believe in the opposite, you know?

I guess what I'm saying is religion isn't limited exclusively to the worship of a divine being or beings. From the limited study I've done of Buddhism, it seems to me that it's a religion of self, I guess some would consider it an extension of one's person, and if that extension includes worship of a Judeo-Christian God then I guess it's ok for them.

The thing about God creating us, and us being built to worship, really comes down to a matter of faith. If you're looking for concrete answers to the existence of God, you will either lose hope and believe in God's non-existence, or you will stumble upon something that strengthens your faith. I kind of think that God created the world, knowing it was imperfect, and inserting a plan for salvation, because we're human, and he's God, and we really don't need to understand everything He's about, because our brains would explode... I guess.

_________________
"Hey Dudes, thanks for rescuing me. Let's go for a burger... Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 2:05 am
Posts: 72
Location: Burlington, OH
InterruptorJones wrote:
I would agree, but the trouble is that most Christians I discuss this with try to refute the Problem of Evil by saying, "no, his behavior is perfectly rational, even to mere humans!" and then trying to explain it away in the many of the ways we've seen here. But like I said, I agree. If god exists, he absolutely does not make a nit of sense on a human level. Does that mean he can't exist? No.


No way! God's behavior is in no way rational to human beings. He's God, and we're not meant to understand him while we're here on earth. Simple as that.

_________________
"Hey Dudes, thanks for rescuing me. Let's go for a burger... Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
DeadGuyPerez wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
I would agree, but the trouble is that most Christians I discuss this with try to refute the Problem of Evil by saying, "no, his behavior is perfectly rational, even to mere humans!" and then trying to explain it away in the many of the ways we've seen here. But like I said, I agree. If god exists, he absolutely does not make a nit of sense on a human level. Does that mean he can't exist? No.


No way! God's behavior is in no way rational to human beings. He's God, and we're not meant to understand him while we're here on earth. Simple as that.


I second that. I dunne who you've been talkin' to, but I canne understand Him. He's God after all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am
Posts: 612
Location: Uck
Didymus wrote:
I don't remember putting it quite that way, Upsilon.


Indeed, I phrased it differently to you. That doesn't alter the fact that what I said had already been implied by you. Whatever euphemisms you may use, what you said was that God doesn't like infidels.

Quote:
I was just suggesting perhaps another way to try to understand why God's mercy does not seem to extend to everyone. Another look at that whole "Many are called, but few are chosen" aspect. Many are called, meaning that God's mercy does extend to everyone, but few are chosen, meaning that his mercy only actually effects some, not all. Why is that? I'm not sure.


Well, you seemed fairly sure when you said that the reason was that God doesn't love all equally.

Stu wrote:
I don't believe that God can save everyone.


Forgive my glaring ignorance, but, as a Mormon, do you believe in the god the Bible describes, or one with different properties? Because I have a biblical source:

Matthew wrote:
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matt. 19:26)


Enough said.

Quote:
Because God is just, he can't and won't tolerate sin at all.


But you and I sin frequently. The fact that you believe in Jesus doesn't change that, and apologising for it doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. How do you, as a Christian, stand on firmer ground than I, an atheist?

Quote:
That is the reason for Jesus' crucifixion (and more importantly, atonement). So in a sense, because everyone sins (and by doing so guarantee a spot in Hell) Jesus needed to be.


I appreciate that is the given reason, but I can't make sense of it. God did not need to manifest himself and put himself through all that pain to spare us from our sins - as Jesus himself pointed out, nothing is impossible to God. If God wants us to be saved from Hell, he could save us without the somewhat poetic addition of "bearing all of mankind's sins". So why did he do it? Maybe God's a masochist. ;)

Quote:
Again, according to what I believe this was an option. Of the two plans proposed during the pre-existence, this was the one that got rejected. Lucifer (Satan) proposed that we live here with no choice between good and evil (so everyone would be saved). More important then that was who the glory would go to... him.


I see that factor as quite a bit less "important" than whether I go to Heaven or Hell.

Quote:
Jesus proposed that we would be sent to earth with the choice of good and evil, and the glory would be given to the Father. But by giving us choice, we would sin. Due to that we would need someone to save us (because God is just), that is where the atonement and crucifixion came into play.


That still doesn't explain why God found it necessary to... yeah, I've already said this.

racerx wrote:
God is a just god, and he is also an unchangeable god. God is omnipotent, but if he were to use that power to erase all the consequences of all of our actions, he wouldn't be just anymore. If he weren't just anymore, then he would be a changeable god, and how can we have faith in a changeable god? The atonement of Jesus Christ provides us a way to escape the penalty of our sins, but that is only because his suffering paid that penalty as long as we give our sins up to him. Jesus paid the demands of justice, so that mercy could be extended to us.


Yeah... I think that yet again I've made the wrong impression. I understand that we need to be saved from our sins to enter Heaven - I assume that as a given. I just don't see why the method of our forgiveness has to involve Jesus being crucified. God can presumably do it without that added hassle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:52 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Ever changing...
Upsilon wrote:
I appreciate that is the given reason, but I can't make sense of it. God did not need to manifest himself and put himself through all that pain to spare us from our sins - as Jesus himself pointed out, nothing is impossible to God. If God wants us to be saved from Hell, he could save us without the somewhat poetic addition of "bearing all of mankind's sins". So why did he do it? Maybe God's a masochist. ;)


I think the idea was more symbolic than anything. I have often wondered why God thought it necessary to have Jesus die for us. But if you look at the scriptures and consider the time frame (by the way - I am not an expert on Biblical times; it's just that this is what I've been told, so if I'm wrong, correct me, it's ok)....

It was customary in that time to perform ritual sacrifices to honour God - many religions used to practice that (some perhaps still do?). Often the sacrifice was a lamb; why, I don't know, I didn't live back then! Jesus often refers to himself as THE Lamb, meaning that he was the ultimate sacrifice. Like I said, it's all symbolic, at least in my opinion....and when you think about it, I guess God may have wanted to do something rash like putting His own Son up for sacrifice, to show us just how much He loves the WHOLE world....and really, one death to save potentially an innumerable amount of people....not that I wanted Jesus to die, but I'm thankful He did, because now I have something to look forward to besides firey eternal death!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Royse City, TX
Upsilon wrote:
racerx wrote:
God is a just god, and he is also an unchangeable god. God is omnipotent, but if he were to use that power to erase all the consequences of all of our actions, he wouldn't be just anymore. If he weren't just anymore, then he would be a changeable god, and how can we have faith in a changeable god? The atonement of Jesus Christ provides us a way to escape the penalty of our sins, but that is only because his suffering paid that penalty as long as we give our sins up to him. Jesus paid the demands of justice, so that mercy could be extended to us.



Yeah... I think that yet again I've made the wrong impression. I understand that we need to be saved from our sins to enter Heaven - I assume that as a given. I just don't see why the method of our forgiveness has to involve Jesus being crucified. God can presumably do it without that added hassle.


Maybe this story might apply to the question.

Once there was a young man who needed money to buy some farmland. He went to a rich guy and borrowed enough money to buy the land. In borrowing the money, he signed a contract that specified when the debt was due to be paid. It was a fair contract, but if the young man didn't pay it on time, he would be cast into a debtor's prison.

Throughout the season, the young man didn't often work on the farm as he should, and ended up not having the money to pay the creditor at the end of the season. The creditor demanded that justice be paid, and that the young man be tossed into prison. The young man of course pleaded for mercy, but if the creditor offered mercy, he wouldn't get his money back.

The young man had a wise older friend who knew his predicament, and loved him and wanted to help him. So the friend went to the creditor, and offered to pay the young man's debt for him. The creditor was happy because he got his money. The friend then set up terms with the young man. He wanted the young man to now regard him as his creditor, and if the young man would follow his terms, the burden would be light.

The symbolism I suppose is pretty easy to see.

Upsilon wrote:
I just don't see why the method of our forgiveness has to involve Jesus being crucified. God can presumably do it without that added hassle.


If it wasn't for Jesus's atonement (including his crucifixion,) then the debt for our sins would not be paid. Lots of people wonder why God can't just wave his wrist, forgive all of us, and be done with it. I don't have a complete answer, but it has to do with justice. If God were to forgive us without Jesus suffering for our sins, then that would be like the friend walking up to the creditor, doing some jedi mind trick, and walking away. That wouldn't be fair to the creditor, aka it would be unjust. Since God is competely just, he won't do it that way. The way he did it, with Jesus paying for our sins, and us repenting completely, meets the demands of justice 100%, and through it, God can still offer us mercy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
racerx_is_alive wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
I just don't see why the method of our forgiveness has to involve Jesus being crucified. God can presumably do it without that added hassle.


If it wasn't for Jesus's atonement (including his crucifixion,) then the debt for our sins would not be paid. Lots of people wonder why God can't just wave his wrist, forgive all of us, and be done with it. I don't have a complete answer, but it has to do with justice. If God were to forgive us without Jesus suffering for our sins, then that would be like the friend walking up to the creditor, doing some jedi mind trick, and walking away. That wouldn't be fair to the creditor, aka it would be unjust. Since God is competely just, he won't do it that way. The way he did it, with Jesus paying for our sins, and us repenting completely, meets the demands of justice 100%, and through it, God can still offer us mercy.


Very well said.

I'd also like to add, Upsilon, that you can't even pretend to have the amount of wisdom God possesses. You're trying to "outsmart" God and say "He shoulda done this, I mean he can, so why doesn't he?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am
Posts: 612
Location: Uck
I appreciate that. Ultimately, any battle to logically argue against God is doomed to failure, because there's always the "he's beyond human comprehension" wildcard. So I suppose my only real argument is that it's irrational to believe in a god who transcends logic, and personally I think there's a difference between being beyond human comprehension and simply being inconsistent. Others may have different viewpoints.

When a debate reaches the "beyond comprehension" point, I consider it a stalemate. ;)

StrongCanada wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
I appreciate that is the given reason, but I can't make sense of it. God did not need to manifest himself and put himself through all that pain to spare us from our sins - as Jesus himself pointed out, nothing is impossible to God. If God wants us to be saved from Hell, he could save us without the somewhat poetic addition of "bearing all of mankind's sins". So why did he do it? Maybe God's a masochist. ;)


I think the idea was more symbolic than anything. I have often wondered why God thought it necessary to have Jesus die for us. But if you look at the scriptures and consider the time frame (by the way - I am not an expert on Biblical times; it's just that this is what I've been told, so if I'm wrong, correct me, it's ok)....

It was customary in that time to perform ritual sacrifices to honour God - many religions used to practice that (some perhaps still do?). Often the sacrifice was a lamb; why, I don't know, I didn't live back then! Jesus often refers to himself as THE Lamb, meaning that he was the ultimate sacrifice. Like I said, it's all symbolic, at least in my opinion....and when you think about it, I guess God may have wanted to do something rash like putting His own Son up for sacrifice, to show us just how much He loves the WHOLE world....and really, one death to save potentially an innumerable amount of people....not that I wanted Jesus to die, but I'm thankful He did, because now I have something to look forward to besides firey eternal death!


You seem to be going two ways in this post. Firstly, you make the claim that it's symbolism, but then you refer to Jesus's crucifixion as your ticket to Heaven. Which is it? If it's the latter, you still haven't explained how that particular physical occurrence was necessary for our redemption.

racerx_is_alive wrote:
Maybe this story might apply to the question.

Once there was a young man who needed money to buy some farmland. He went to a rich guy and borrowed enough money to buy the land. In borrowing the money, he signed a contract that specified when the debt was due to be paid. It was a fair contract, but if the young man didn't pay it on time, he would be cast into a debtor's prison.

Throughout the season, the young man didn't often work on the farm as he should, and ended up not having the money to pay the creditor at the end of the season. The creditor demanded that justice be paid, and that the young man be tossed into prison. The young man of course pleaded for mercy, but if the creditor offered mercy, he wouldn't get his money back.

The young man had a wise older friend who knew his predicament, and loved him and wanted to help him. So the friend went to the creditor, and offered to pay the young man's debt for him. The creditor was happy because he got his money. The friend then set up terms with the young man. He wanted the young man to now regard him as his creditor, and if the young man would follow his terms, the burden would be light.

The symbolism I suppose is pretty easy to see.


Yes. Although for some of the points I fail to see how it relates to real life. We have:

Rich guy = God
Debtor = Mankind
Wise friend = Jesus
Prison = Hell
Paying money back = Atonement

The last analogy still doesn't make sense to me. What you've essentially done with that story is tell me what I already knew - what you didn't explain is how being nailed up to a cross is tantamount to repaying a friend's debt. In the latter, money is actually paid back to the person to whom it was owed, satisfying him. The former... what? What essential characteristic of Jesus' crucifixion was it that gave God back what he wanted?

Quote:
If it wasn't for Jesus's atonement (including his crucifixion,) then the debt for our sins would not be paid.


But why not? How did Jesus being crucified knock down the barrier between us and God on a spiritual level?

Quote:
Lots of people wonder why God can't just wave his wrist, forgive all of us, and be done with it. I don't have a complete answer, but it has to do with justice. If God were to forgive us without Jesus suffering for our sins, then that would be like the friend walking up to the creditor, doing some jedi mind trick, and walking away. That wouldn't be fair to the creditor, aka it would be unjust.


So how does the crucifixion make it just? You're telling me that if you led exactly the same life without the atonement - praying to God when you do wrong, etcetera - you wouldn't make it to Heaven, whereas with the crucifixion done, you will? Just because God decided to let himself be put through a lot of pain? You can't tell me that makes sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Royse City, TX
Upsilon wrote:
The last analogy still doesn't make sense to me. What you've essentially done with that story is tell me what I already knew - what you didn't explain is how being nailed up to a cross is tantamount to repaying a friend's debt. In the latter, money is actually paid back to the person to whom it was owed, satisfying him. The former... what? What essential characteristic of Jesus' crucifixion was it that gave God back what he wanted?

Quote:
If it wasn't for Jesus's atonement (including his crucifixion,) then the debt for our sins would not be paid.


But why not? How did Jesus being crucified knock down the barrier between us and God on a spiritual level?

Quote:
Lots of people wonder why God can't just wave his wrist, forgive all of us, and be done with it. I don't have a complete answer, but it has to do with justice. If God were to forgive us without Jesus suffering for our sins, then that would be like the friend walking up to the creditor, doing some jedi mind trick, and walking away. That wouldn't be fair to the creditor, aka it would be unjust.


So how does the crucifixion make it just? You're telling me that if you led exactly the same life without the atonement - praying to God when you do wrong, etcetera - you wouldn't make it to Heaven, whereas with the crucifixion done, you will? Just because God decided to let himself be put through a lot of pain? You can't tell me that makes sense.


Let me make sure I am trying to answer the right question. I think you are trying to find out how Jesus's suffering can actually pay for the consequences of Joe Bob's sins, 2000 years later. If I'm understanding correctly, this is a very good/difficult question to answer. It's a very valid question, because it doesn't really seem all that fair still.

For example, let's say I were to kill someone, and as punishment, they were to kill you instead. They make you pay the price of my crime. I suppose you could say that justice got its part (a life for a life?,) but this is in no way fair. It wouldn't make any sense at all. So the sacrifice of a perfect person makes even less sense.

I don't have a complete answer for this. But here are a couple of ideas that have something to do with it. First, part of the reason it works is because Jesus is a god. The sacrifice of a bird, a lamb, a person wouldn't have ever done the trick. It took the sacrifice of a God for it to work. This is partly because the sacrifice of a god is an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Again, no complete answer for this. Sorry. It is also because of Jesus's very perfection that it worked. I guess he could say, "Look at how I suffered, even though I didn't commit any sins. This person did commit sins, but he has given them up to me, so that my suffering could pay for them. Let him come in to heaven." This way, he can act as our advocate before the Father.

Like I said, these don't completely answer your question. I don't believe that God has revealed the complete answer to your question. However, I can tell you why I believe. It's not really for any of the reasons that I have yet stated. The things that I mentioned earlier reinforce my belief, but they are not the basis for my belief. I believe that his atonement paid for my sins because God has revealed it through his prophets and apostles. The scriptures say that it works, and through the Holy Ghost I know that the scriptures are true, and that the prophets teachings are true. That's why I believe. I know that's probably not the answer you were looking for. But that's really the best I have.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am
Posts: 612
Location: Uck
That's an admirable answer, Racer. Essentially your faith is the basis for your belief (if that makes any sense at all). I still don't believe it because I don't have any faith in God to base my answers on, but I can see how faith can affect your judgement of this kind of thing. You're right in that it wasn't really the kind of answer I was looking for, but it's a nice explanation nonetheless.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 274 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group