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I will concur with kaemmerite about Genesis Chapter One. Linguistically and structurally, it is different than the rest of Genesis, and appears to be a hymn or epic poem meant to serve as an introduction to the rest of the book. That alone should clear up any confusion about the exact relationship between Chapters 1 and 2, that is often the subject of much discussion about the exact order of creation. The use of parallelism and repetition points to this being a song of some sort.

The problem is, however, once you get into Chapter 2 and 3, the language is predominantly prose, not poetic. And the remaining chapters of Genesis are intended to be read as a history of the Hebrew Patriarchs. This, I do not believe, can be taken in a figurative sense.

I do want to point out, however, that the literary form of the text is what points me to this conclusion. I believe that the general principle of "This doesn't fit my own understanding of the universe, so it must be allegorical," should not be applied to historical texts. If you want to know whether a particular passage is allegorical, look at its literary form first.

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There was another theory I thought of years ago (I don't actually believe it, but thought it was a fun idea) that Satan wasn't in fact the enemy of God, but His employee. It made sense to me, since God needed evil in the world in order for goodness to have meaning. This Satan had the same function as he has in the popular sense - he tempted, but he couldn't possess, as God would have set strict rules for him to follow as he went about his work. And at every soul's final trial - where it is decided whether that soul went heavenwards or hellwards - Satan acted as the prosecuting counsil (which the translation for his name suggests anyway). So he wasn't God's adversary in my little theory, but Humanity's.

Interesting theory, but I'm sure Didymus will find a way to prove it wrong...

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The employee theory isn't that far off in some ways. Certainly from the accounts of Job 1 & 2, Zechariah 3, and Philippians 2:10-11, it is clear that he must submit to God when called to do so. And most certainly his role as adversary is primarily directed against men, since he has no power over God. However, in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, he attempted to tempt Jesus, and thereby made himself an enemy of God as well as men. I don't think ol' Horn Boy is gonna be winning any "Employee of the Year" awards after that little fiasco.

But here's something else. When Peter attempted to convince Jesus not to go to the cross in Matthew 16:23, Jesus called him "Satan." Now, contrast that to the previous paragraph in which Jesus said to him, "Blessed Simon Son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven." And here, Jesus is calling him the devil. Now what does this mean? Peter was certainly one of the most faithful disciples of Jesus. In fact, his confession was a revelation from God himself. However, not 5 minutes later, he's speaking the words of Satan.

Now some people have proposed that Satan has no power to override human free will. I think cases of possession prove that incorrect. But even in the case of devout Christians, Satan does have some power of influence, to slip in evil or destructive thoughts. Just something to ponder.

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Isaiah 14:12-17 teaches that Satan has been an enemy to God at least as long as he has been an enemy to man. Satan only wants to destroy mankind because they are God's most prized creation. We are God's children, and Satan wants to destroy us because of his hatred for God, men, and himself, and his desire to usurp God's throne. I believe that at one time, long before the creation of the earth, all of us, including Satan and all his angels, lived with God in heaven. Even then, Satan was exceedingly proud and basically wanted all the power and glory of God. He wanted to be higher than God, wanted to replace God, and was persuasive enough that many of God's children followed him, and they were all cast out of heaven for rebellion, for while knowing God, and living with him, they chose to follow Lucifer and declare that they would that God should not rule over them.



Satan only has as much power and influence over us as we are willing to to give him. He can take over and control our thoughts and words and actions, but only if we choose to put ourselves in a position where he can do so. Jesus promised that if we watch and pray always, Satan cannot tempt us beyond our ability to withstand him. However, since we are imperfect in always watching and praying, Satan is able to tempt us strongly enough where it becomes impossible to resist.

There are things Satan can and cannot do. He can put thoughts into our minds, to try and strengthen desires to sin, but he cannot read our thoughts. He in no way has any power of God, but is completely subject to God's power. The only reason God lets him have any power is because there needs to be opposition in all things. If there was no evil or opposite influence to choose rather than God, then how could anyone voluntarily choose God? Or how could those who do not want God to rule over them choose anything but God? All of a sudden this life becomes an exercise in futility and pointlessness, rather than an opportunity to learn and grow.

So he is an enemy against God, despite having no power over him, and still being bound by God's will. In other words, despite being an enemy of God, he must still submit to God's rule. Where I was going is that WHF's idea was an interesting one and not entirely incorrect.

I am not convinced that we existed with God in the beginning. As best I can tell, before the beginning, the only one who existed was the Word who was both God and with God. Only after the act of creation were there other persons, like the angels.

I am also not convinced that we exist with God prior to our conception. The reason I say that is, the overwhelming idea in Scripture is that human beings are not complete as disembodied spirits, but rather receive at least part of their true identity (nephesh, soul or self, if you will) from our connection with the flesh. This was why Jesus was incarnate as Lord in the Flesh - in order to redeem true humanity, he had to redeem us both body and spirit. That is also why the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Body is so important to Christian eschatology - we will be reunited with our bodies and made perfect then. So how does this apply to us existing before the beginning? Well, without both flesh and spirit, we are not in any sense real souls (or nephesh). We can only exist in God prior to conception in the form of idea (i.e., God knows what we will be), but not in reality (i.e., we do not exist yet). I know that's a rather complicated subject, and one not thoroughly discussed by Scripture (I mean, what form to people have if they do not yet exist does not seem to be a main topic).

My point in the Matthew 16 passage is this: Satan CAN and does influence people, and that influence can (and often is) very powerful. It is not, per se, an argument against free will, but a warning to the Christian to be on guard. Even the most noble and innocent thoughts might be the work of the devil if they lead us away from Christ and the cross.

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Yeah. Agreement there.



I will agree that the Bible is not very clear on this topic, and I believe that a strict interpretation of the Bible can leave room for either of our ideas/beliefs. I don't mind saying that I get my beliefs about our premortal life from the teachings of modern prophets and newly revealed scriptures (well, new in the sense that ~175 years is new). I realize and am comfortable with the fact that you do not accept these teachings as authoritative, so I'm not going to push this idea much further, but I do want to state that I believe that this point of view is also valid scripturally.



Total agreement.

I'm no scholar or anything, nor do I claim to be...but personally, I'm not entirely sure that the passage there is talking about Satan. I mean, the part that says, ". . .consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble. . ."

Satan isn't really a man, y'know? Besides, that scripture starts out stating clearly that it is a proverb against the King of Babylon. Why would God, in the middle of a warning to the king of Babylon, suddenly start talking to Satan?

And then later on in that passage, God says something about "Thou art cast out of thy grave." Satan never had a grave. Nor would he ever have been buried, like verse 20 says, "Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial. . ." Well, of course Satan wouldn't be joined with them in burial, so that wouldn't make any sense for God to say that if He was indeed talking about Satan.

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but this seems more like a warning to an earthly, human king than to Satan...

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was the opinions of Nate, and should be taken as his two cents. Actual exchange rate may vary by location, see stores for details, void where prohibited under penalty of torture.

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