What's wrong with the church?

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

i guess this is more for those that claim to be christians on the site than anyone else.

i asked this on a "Christian" board, and was getting great response, this is not meant to be looked up on as a debate or anything else like that

anyways here it is

or maybe we could say, what's happened to the church?

I am a pentecostal boy of faith and have some Baptist roots as well.
and i can look and say there is something wrong with the church!

i'm a young 22 yrs old and have been saved since the age of 12
(got saved Nov. 19th 1995) and i can recall when we could go to church and it would be nothing when you get to church and folks already be having church, no we sit real silent and oh so still, afraid if we move that we'll be out of order

i remember when you didnt have to fit to the ways of the world just to get ppl to come to church
its kinda funny, i remember when preachers would preach hell, fire, and brimestone message, when they'd preach messages of holiness or hell, etc. etc. and the churches would be full, not just of ppl, but of the spirit of God and manifestations of God being in the house, but now days we got preachers/pastors who are preaching more of the "tickle me ears type sermons" and our churches seem to less and less ppl each week and even less of the spirit of God!

i remember when we'd be in church for hours at a time, up til 11, 12, and even 1am way pass the standard christian time of 9pm, and now days if we go pass 9pm its on!

why the only way you can get ppl willing to stay past 9pm, is if a prophet is praying for ppl and rubbing them on the head telling them how great they are, etc. etc., if it envolves just hearing the word we want out by 9pm if not before then

now days we worry about our kids and how they will do in school and use that as an excuse on Sunday nights and week nights to get out of church early and get home sooner, but yet i can remember well growing up going through middle school and high school, and on certain nights i wouldnt get in bed until 1am due to services, then get up at 5:30am to get ready for school and i went through school with a 3.0 GPA

use to be ppl would come to church and if they wasnt dressed decent for a service, if you was a woman, a mother of the church would come to you and tell you and either take you home and help you find something more suitable for church, or they'd take you to there house and find something, and if you was a man, a father of the church would do you the same way
now days we have the form of come, only ole way will do, just as long as you pay your tithes, everything will be alright!

we've long surpassed these days, cause of being afraid of hurting someone's feelings, but i'd rather hurt your feelings known i'm gonna help you, than pat you on the back and watch you sink into hell

too many times i find the problem, being that pastors/preachers say God has enlightened their minds to how things should be, we are sadly following our mind more than we are our hearts now days!

if it could happen, i fear the devil could sue the pants off the church for false advertisement, we say we have something we dont have anymore!

i remember when Pastors i've set under in yrs past and even preachers would walk up to ppl who was "playing church" and "trying" to work under the power of God and tell them to sit down for you are not being used by God, cause of the sin in your life, yet today we have got Pastor that have become more cowards than men of God!
they let anything and everything craw into the pulpits

i remember when preachers, whether they been men or woman, would not get into the pulpit unless properley dressed
if you was a man you was in slacks and long sleeved shirt (if not suit) and if you was a woman, you had a dress one, not no skirt that came to the knees, nor no mini skirt that all you to do was jump and out would pop a surprise, but we dressed the part, walked to the part, and talked to the part

we did laugh at jokes that wasnt fit to laugh at, but today we laugh afraid we wont be accepted by our peers and be considered an outcast!
all the while failing to realize we are suppose to be set aside and different!
going against the flow if ya will

i recall the days when it was nothing to hear ppl praying in tounges, singing in tounges and even preaching in tounges!
today most churches probably wouldnt know how to react if just one of these actions took place in a service

i recall the day when it was nothing for ppl to come to the church, looking for deliverance and they would find it (meaning demons would be cast out) to day we treat these ppl as pets and as if they are part of the family

i recall when ppl would come looking for help in general for any situation and would find it, but now days they cant

i remember a day when preachers, pastors, christians in general would get caught dead in a place that served beer, wine, etc., but today we say we cant find a place to eat that doesnt sales such drinks

i remember a time when a dear friend of mine set under two pastors
1 pastor allowed his son to have any and everything he wanted
bought him black paint for his room, bought him black window blinds, bought him metallic (sp?) cd's, etc. etc. and used the excuse that his son was expressing himself and said it was more easier to leave him at home than it was to bring him to church and to day that pastors son is so tormented and bond down by demons, that's he's one step away from the loney ben and yet this pastor wonders what went wrong

the other pastor had 2 sons and a daughter, who lived hard lives, my friend talks to me many times of how we wasnt allowed any country songs, rock songs or anything in his home, not until he got passed the age of 18 anyways, he tells me of how that he brought in a ac/dc tape one time and his dad found it and he got whipped then grounded over it, yet today my friend is pastoring a church and his brother is a youth pastor at another church

again i ask what's wrong with the church?

i'll tell ya what's wrong, we've gotten away from our first love
we've gotten away from spending sleepless night and being on our knees in pray
we've left the days of spending countless hours on our knees, having a good ol fashion travailing service
we're to busy here and there to read like we should, pray like we should, fast like we should, or do anything like we once did, when we saw results in the church

and yet we ask why are our children like they are, why the church dont see results, why the devil attacks us like he does

the bible says in Amos 6:1 "Woe to them that are at ease in Zion"

what's wrong with the church?
we've got in the comfort zone and when in the comfort zone, we are in the danger zone

we need to do like the bible says "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion"
we need to sound the alarm, wake the church up, let them know that the cry of the bridgegroom is going forth even as it did in Matt. 25:6
we need to do as Romans 13:11 says "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep..." and verse 12 says "The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light"

even as Isa. 60:1 says: "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. "

it is time that this sleeping giant we call the church awakes and arises back to the righteousness that we once was!

its time we get back to holiness or hell style preaching/the fire and brimestone style preaching!

its time we get back to calling it right/wrong, black/white!
to long we've took the by pass on this thing called sin!
tell me where and how i can improve instead of patting me on the head and saying we all got problems and will make it

S.O.S (song of solomon) 6:10 says its like this "Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners?"

she is the church, i am the church, we are the church and its time we get back to where we use to be

meaning dressing right (women and men both), walking right, talking right, acting right, being the church we use to be and have the respect that we use to have too!

is it any wonder the Song of Solomon has the initals SOS????
its a book of love, but some parts of it can be considered cries for help!

i believe if there is such a time the church needs help it is now, i believe some of the saints have been sending an SOS signal to God and he is answer some of us!

to he that hath ear let him hear what the spirit has to say
its time we return to our first love!!!

as 2nd Chronicles 7:14 says "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

if we want to go forward as the song says We got to go back!
we got to go back where livings true, back to what is absolute, back to where the church will stand strong!
back to where there is a right and there is a wrong!
as i said before back to where its black or white, where you can see the difference that is like day and night

we got to go back!!!

Didymus · **Posted:** Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:49 pm

Quote:

its time we get back to holiness or hell style preaching/the fire and brimestone style preaching!

I have to disagree with this part. Preaching must always center around Christ crucified and risen from the dead. Granted, I do believe in hell, but the Gospel, the "euaggelion" if you will, is supposed to be "good news." And that good news is Jesus Christ.

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i remember a day when preachers, pastors, christians in general would get caught dead in a place that served beer, wine, etc., but today we say we cant find a place to eat that doesnt sales such drinks

Also, don't be so hard on alcohol. Jesus and his disciples drank wine. Jesus in fact used wine as part of his blessed sacrament of Holy Communion. If alcohol in general is so evil, then he would not have done so. While I would agree that debauchery in general is evil. God did not give us the gift of wine so that we could abuse ourselves and others with it.

In general, I would say that the Church needs to recognize that there are hurting people in our communities, in our lives, and in the world in general. We have an opportunity to show God's mercy to those who are in need of him. In fact, I would suggest that people's sins demonstrate just how badly in need of him they really are. But if we the Church are going to bring healing and reconciliation to these people, then we must start by offering them the unconditional love of God in Christ. St. Paul says that while we were sinners and enemies of God, God demonstrated his love for us in this: he sent his son Jesus Christ to die for us.

I would agree that God expects his people to live by his precepts, guided by his wisdom, his Spirit, and his Word. However, so much of what some church groups call "holiness" is very little different than what the Pharisees in Jesus' day tried to impose on people: laws that they had tried to add to God's Word. Let's be careful that we do not fall into the same trap.

But I hear your pain. It grieves me too that this world has turned away from Christ. It especially grieves me when it's people I know who might otherwise want to live a godly life, but have lost hope or have simply forgotten what he has done for them. I think about Jesus' words, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem. How I've longed to gather you under my wings like a mother hen her chicks, but you would not have it." And yet, he went to the cross for them; he died there knowing full well that the majority of people in this world would reject him and forsake him.

As a fellow minister, I must exhort you: do not deviate from the cross. It is the cross we proclaim to be the hope of mankind, and it is the way of the cross we preach for the living of the Christian life, for it is in the cross that our God meets us and empowers us to live for him.

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

Quote:

I have to disagree with this part. Preaching must always center around Christ crucified and risen from the dead. Granted, I do believe in hell, but the Gospel, the "euaggelion" if you will, is supposed to be "good news." And that good news is Jesus Christ.

hey good to hear from someone!
and its cool ya disagree, no problem with that
but if your old enough and been in church long enough, think back to when they use to have campmeetings, tent revivals, and things like that, what kinda messages was mostly preached?

it was preachings of the cross/Jesus, holiness or hell, and brimestone/fire style preaching!

back then the churches was packed out, lost ppl was coming to the house of God and leaving changed, leaving saved!

our standards as christians was higher back then too than what they are now!

today we have messages preaching of how God is gonna cause you to be rich and that if you aint rich you aint in the will of God and preachings of how that we are doing so "good", but if we was really doing good we'd have more evidence than what we do, at least IMO we would

now days that we have these style of preaching, our crowds are getting lower and lower, more folks are quitting church, and it few and far between trips that you see lost ppl coming to church, let alone making a trip to the alter to recieve Jesus as savior!

if ya remember back in those campmeeting/tent revival days, things would happen and christians and lost folks a like would come seeing what is going on!

today the only way you can get visitors to come to the church ya go to, is by if ya are associated with there church or just good friends with folks, its like ppl have lost there intrest in the church and in God, back then they was worried about nothing else but God and seeing what they could do for him and where they could go in him

today its like folks a like meh, big change IMO

Quote:

Also, don't be so hard on alcohol. Jesus and his disciples drank wine. Jesus in fact used wine as part of his blessed sacrament of Holy Communion. If alcohol in general is so evil, then he would not have done so. While I would agree that debauchery in general is evil. God did not give us the gift of wine so that we could abuse ourselves and others with it.

many folks would argue with ya that the wine was actually grape juice but i will not do that...lol

while we know the bible says to have a little wine for the stomach sake, and Jesus changed the water into wine, and It even seems that Jesus likely drank wine on occasions, something we gotta remember in New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation efforts, the water was filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in most third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine (this is the statement of a little wine for the stomach sake, and where lots of folks will look at alochol as a medicine). The Greek word for wine in the Bible is the most basic everyday word for wine. In that day, wine was fermented, but not to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine we use today. Again, Scripture does not necessarily forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is, rather, drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12). There are principles in the Bible, however, that make it extremely difficult to argue that a Christian drinking alcohol in any quantity is pleasing to God.

Cause several verses encourage people to stay away from alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 14:26; 29:6; Judges 13:4,7,14; 1 Samuel 1:15; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4,6; Isaiah 5:11,22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12; Micah 2:11; Luke 1:15). However, Scripture does not necessarily forbid a Christian from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Christians are commanded to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19), thus is where my adiction talk comes from. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or might encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say they are drinking alcohol to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

i guess the next question is to how to know when its wrong or not?
well that's when our conscience comes into play.
this is for any chrisitan, but if your at home, your enjoying a cold one and all of a sudden a chrisitan friend, a church member, or maybe even the pastor shows up....how would you feel if they caught ya with a cold one?

if ya answer ashamed, then more than likely you can make the assumption that its wrong to be doing something like this!

If there is room for doubt as to whether it pleases God, then it is best to give it up.

We need to remember that our bodies, as well as our souls, have been redeemed and belong to God. "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (I Cor. 6:19,20). This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do and where we go with our bodies.

We must evaluate our actions not only in relation to God but also in relation to their effect on our family, our friends, and other people in general. Even if a particular thing may not hurt us personally, if it harmfully influences or affects someone else, it is wrong. "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak... We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves" (Rom. 14:21; 15:1).

i mean to many times i have talked to ppl that are lost and they'll be like yeah i went to the club with so and so the other night and we had a few drinks!

my first response is well i thought this person went to church and all?
they answer: well yeah they do!
but they go to these places and do these things that most christians would not?
they answer: yeah, guess its alright to do such things and will say the famous words, i guess if they go to heaven i will be there too!

WOAH!
talk about a testimony not only against you, but where you go to church, and on God as well!
we gotta remember we are just about the only bible or even better, next thing to God that most lost ppl will ever see, until they come to church or even get saved!
if we live and do as most of the world does, and more so do what only mainly lost folks would be seen doing, we are sending the wrong message to the lost world!

wouldnt you agree?

What's Her Face · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:34 pm

JF95 wrote:

its kinda funny, i remember when preachers would preach hell, fire, and brimestone message, when they'd preach messages of holiness or hell, etc. etc. and the churches would be full, not just of ppl, but of the spirit of God and manifestations of God being in the house, but now days we got preachers/pastors who are preaching more of the "tickle me ears type sermons" and our churches seem to less and less ppl each week and even less of the spirit of God!!

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the preaching of brimstone and eternal punishment is more effective at keeping church attendence up rather than preaching the gentler aspects of faith.

I'm no expert, but I'd say that it's that kind of preaching that turns many away from the church. Because the public is more educated now and most would prefer to be engaged intellectually, not scolded and threatened. And it's no good if people are scared into going to church - it wouldn't a genuine gesture of their faith.

JF95 wrote:

i remember when you didnt have to fit to the ways of the world just to get ppl to come to church

I would be one of those people who turned away from the church - Catholic Church, in my case. And it was for that reason initially - the fact that the Vatican is so wrapped up in its own medieval concerns to provide any offer of solidarity or understanding of its followers' concerns, or even of the challenges faced by its clergy out in the real world. But that's the thing - you can't expect people to support the church if the church doesn't support them, so it's important that the church does take into account the ways of the world. To show how Christ's teachings can be compared to its followers' real-life experiences.

kaemmerite · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:43 pm

Quote:

it was preachings of the cross/Jesus, holiness or hell, and brimestone/fire style preaching!

back then the churches was packed out, lost ppl was coming to the house of God and leaving changed, leaving saved!

But this should not be ALL there is to our faith. If you keep preaching hellfire/brimstone sermons, your church's spiritual growth is going to stagnate...they're going to keep hearing the same message over and over, and eventually, they'll turn into Homer:

"Why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell?"

The church is a place for the lost to visit, yes. But it is ALSO a place to help fellow believers grow in their knowledge of God. Their knowledge can't grow if they are preached the same thing over and over again.

If you went to an English class, and all they taught you was nouns and verbs EVERY DAY, you would eventually go, "This is boring. Can't we move on to something else?"

Hellfire/brimstone sermons have their place, but not every week. Not even every month. Besides, there's more to God than condemning people and sending them to Hell anyway. There's His MERCY, you know. Mercy that means we don't HAVE to worry about Hell, because our penalty for our sins has been paid.

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We need to remember that our bodies, as well as our souls, have been redeemed and belong to God. "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (I Cor. 6:19,20). This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do and where we go with our bodies.

This verse is often used to argue against a great many things it does not actually argue against, such as tattoos, alcohol, piercings, smoking, and the like. It is always taken out of context from the TRUE meaning of the verse. Here is the verse in context:

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

As you can see, the verse is talking about sexual immorality...especially true when you read the verses before it where it talks about not uniting the body of Christ (us) with prostitutes.

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We must evaluate our actions not only in relation to God but also in relation to their effect on our family, our friends, and other people in general. Even if a particular thing may not hurt us personally, if it harmfully influences or affects someone else, it is wrong. "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak... We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves" (Rom. 14:21; 15:1).

But what if someone is offended and says that women wearing pants is a sin? Should the entire female portion of the congregation that wear pants be forced to wear dresses just because of one guy who thinks this? We need to be respectful of others, yes, and we shouldn't do things that cause our brothers to stumble, but there is a line somewhere. You can't please all the people all the time.

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we gotta remember we are just about the only bible or even better, next thing to God that most lost ppl will ever see, until they come to church or even get saved!
if we live and do as most of the world does, and more so do what only mainly lost folks would be seen doing, we are sending the wrong message to the lost world!

wouldnt you agree?

I completely agree with this part of your post, though. There are certain things Christians should and should not do, because if they do (or don't), it could be harmful to their witness.

Didymus · **Posted:** Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:26 pm

I think you covered a lot of the bases I would have raised. For example, that wine was actually used by Jesus and the disciples, and that Bible never strictly forbids alcohol use, but only encourages moderate responsible use, condemning only abusive overuse and drunken behavior.

As a pastor, I would not be intimidated at all by another pastor seeing me with a cold one. Although I rarely drink at home. I just think that, for my own responsibility's sake, I'd rather be with friends when I drink, so that they can hold me accountable. Also so I don't get tempted to use alcohol as self-medication (i.e., to forget stress or pain); that leads to alcoholism (did I mention I used to be a chaplain for a VA Recovery Center in St. Louis?). But for my own conscience, I am not ashamed of my own moderate responsible alcohol use, and I don't know of any of my Christian friends who would take offense at it. Nor my parishioners.

I take that back. I do have one alcoholic in one of my two parishes. If he were to ever drop by the house, I would never offer him a cold one. Nor would I drink one in front of him. That would be just plain mean. I would abstain for the sake of his conscience. He knows that. He and I have discussed his alcohol recovery before; my experience at the VA was very helpful there. Personally, I think that's the epitome of the Romans passages you cited.

As for where to go and what to do, that's a different story. For example, I would never dream of going to a strip club for a few drinks. That's treading on other ground too dangerous for us. Nor would I go to a "meat market" to have my few drinks, places where people are trying to pick up other warm bodies for profane purposes. However, if I go into a Mexican restaurant, and I want a Margarita with my Fajitas, with that I see nothing wrong.

But then there's also other possibilities, too. Remember, Jesus did most of his eating and drinking in places where tax collectors and sinners went. He went to minister to them; not to encourage their debauchery, but to address their needs as fallen people in need of a savior.

I guess that's where I'm going here. There are people in genuine need, people who have lost their way and are in turmoil and pain.

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it was preachings of the cross/Jesus, holiness or hell, and brimestone/fire style preaching!

I would say that the place of hell in our preaching should be essentially, "If it weren't for the cross of Jesus Christ, that's where you'd be right now." It shouldn't be used as a tool to scare people, but rather a diagnosis of the chief problem of humanity: separation from God. That separation ultimately leads there - to hell.

But there's also this: it depends on the people to whom you speak. If you have a congregation of faithful Christians who serve God in spirit and in truth, then hell may not have as much of a prominant place. What those folks need to hear is how God is empowering them through the cross to fight against those gates of hell, to break them down, as Jesus said we would in Matthew 16. On the other hand, if your congregation is mostly complacent, and they just show up on Sunday and not much else, then maybe they need to be reminded that God has something better in mind for them: a Mission. They might need to see those gates of hell so they get stirred up to go knock them over, lest they find themselves locked in from the wrong side. But even there, the forgiveness of Christ in the cross is the answer. Turn your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith.

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today we have messages preaching of how God is gonna cause you to be rich and that if you aint rich you aint in the will of God and preachings of how that we are doing so "good",

I agree 100% there. God has called us to go the way of the cross. Our forgiveness cost Jesus everything that he had, everything that he was, including his own life. He endured torture and death for us. Those people who think that God's grace is cheap, that God is just going to overlook their complacency and unbelief had best be careful. The Bible says that Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered--and this is the Son of God himself! Imagine how much more obedience you and I need to learn as imperfect, fallen human beings! I know. Over the past few years, I've suffered some painful experiences in my life. I've only shared them with a very few people on this forum. I can honestly tell you that, were it not for a miracle from God, the hand of God on my very life these past few years, I would not be where I am today. Whether any of the skeptics can understand it or not, I know my Savior lives. And I know because of what I suffered, and how he brought me through that suffering. The Way of the Cross is this: that God paid a very high price for us, and following him, being his disciple, will cost us a high price as well. I've paid a high price to be Christ's disciple. So I hear what you're saying.

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

lol, just as i said i dont wanna turn this into a debate or make any enemy's right off the back

its clear we have difference of opinions which is perfectly fine, we'll just agree to disagree!

Didymus · **Posted:** Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:37 pm

The think is, JF95, I'm not totally disagreeing with you. If anything, I'm just hoping to encourage you to stay focused. As Hebrews says, "Turn your eyes to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." Where is it that the Christian gets his power to live a Christian life? From the Cross of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at work in him.

Especially that last part. I was in fact giving you my own experience to confirm exactly what you said. Christians sometimes make the mistake of thinking that grace means the Christian life is easy. It's not. It's nothing short of a battle against Satan himself. The question for us is, do we want to enter into that battle, even though we might risk wounds, losses, and heartbreaks, or do we want to just sit back comfortably and let the devil continue to rule this world?

Ooh! That reminds me of a recent sermon I preached. Let me see if I can find it.

Here it is:

Didymus wrote:

Text: Matthew 16:21-28
Title: The Way of the Cross

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Today we’re going to be talking about The Way of the Cross, or as Dietrich Bonnhoeffer put it, "The Cost of Discipleship." Now what does that mean? It means that the privilege of being one of Christ’s disciples does not come cheap. We Lutherans love to say that we are saved by grace alone, but far too often we forget how valuable that grace is, and we treat it as something cheap. Earlier this morning, when I proclaimed the Lord’s Forgiveness to you, that forgiveness did not come cheap. My right to proclaim it, and your right to receive it, comes at a very high price. That is what our Lord is telling St. Peter in our Gospel reading for today.

Before we get into the text, let’s think about what’s going on here. If you’ll remember last week, Jesus was asking his disciples who they thought he was, and St. Peter, with his “rock solid” faith, spoke up and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” A great truth revealed to him by God, and upon which the entire Church was to be founded. But here, in our lesson, Jesus is explaining to his disciples what that truly means.

And what does it mean? From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. It means that this Christ, this Son of the Living God, was going to suffer and die. That was his mission. That was why he came to earth: to be a suffering servant, to be a crucified king. Jesus was, in fact, telling his disciples that he was about to die. His destiny is to walk the Way of the Cross.

But, as so often happened, the disciples just didn’t get it. In fact, St. Peter, who just a few minutes ago, made this great confession of Jesus as the Son of God, ends up denying our Lord’s words. We read in Verse 22, Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

On one level, it looks like Peter just wanted to protect his friend, his leader, his pastor, if you will. But let’s take a look at what’s wrong with what Peter says. “Never, Lord!” In other words, “This shouldn’t happen to you! You’re our great king, the chosen one!” He simply does not recognize that this was Jesus’ mission. Jesus is not just Lord; he is to be a crucified Lord.

That’s one of the biggest problems with our faith. The God we worship is a crucified God, a God who sacrificed himself, who suffered and died. It’s a concept that doesn’t make sense. Why would God reveal himself as a suffering servant? Why does the Lord of Life have to die? Why must the God of Power and Might have to suffer humiliating defeat and death? These are hard questions, but nevertheless, it’s the truth. Our Lord is a crucified Lord.

But look at what else he says: “This shall never happen to you!” I’m not gonna let it happen, he says. Peter’s not just denying Jesus’ destiny; Peter here actually thinks he has the power to stop it! But isn’t that true with all of us so often in life? We think we’re in control of our own destinies, and we’re not! We just don’t recognize how powerless we truly are. When our lives are going great, and we have everything we need, we don’t recognize just how things might go wrong. It’s only when we face trials and tribulations that we recognize just how little control we do have over our lives. When our loved ones suffer from destructive diseases or self-destructive behaviors, when we lose our jobs and face financial hardships, or when we face failure and disappointments in life. Then we begin to realize that we aren’t in control, and all we can do is turn to the One who is.

But Peter here is determined, if not too smart. He’s sworn he’s not going to let Jesus die. And how does Jesus respond to this loyalty? “Get behind me, Satan!” Just minutes ago, Jesus had said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.” But now, Jesus calls him Satan! How’s that for a twist?

He also says, “You are a stumbling block to me.” I just want to point something out here. It’s not just that what Peter says is incorrect, it’s also a very real temptation for Jesus. I think sometimes we forget that Jesus faced the same kinds of problems that you and I face on a daily basis. He also faced fears and doubts, just like you and I do. The only difference is that he didn’t fail, whereas we often do. But look, Jesus knew what that Cross was going to cost him; he knew perfectly well the pain and suffering he was about to endure. He knew what he had to do, and it’s only natural that he was afraid. He knew the cost, and yet he paid it anyway. He still chose to walk that long, hard, weary road to the Cross.

And he asks us to walk that difficult road with him. “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?”

Jesus is telling us that, just as he walked the Way of the Cross, you and I are to walk the Way of the Cross as well. This is what we mean by the Cost of Discipleship: to follow Jesus, to live a Christian life, is not all fun and games, people. We Lutherans love to tell people that we are saved by grace alone, but far too often we forget what that grace costs. Jesus lived a life of self-sacrifice, and he calls us to live out that self-sacrifice in our own lives. Sometimes making godly choices is very painful. Sometimes following Christ means we have to do things we don’t like. Sometimes God calls us to make our own sacrifices.

Now it doesn’t mean we have to join a monastery, or whip ourselves, like some people did in older times. But to show our love for our God, sometimes we have to turn away from this world, to deny ourselves, to make some sacrifices in order to enjoy the fruits of the kingdom.

Well, if God’s grace is all we need, then why are we talking about self-denial? Well, let’s take a look at what God’s grace means for us. (1) The Bible says we Christians are in the world, but not of the world. This means that, in order to enjoy our relationship with God, we sometimes turn away from this world. It might mean to turn the TV off for an hour so you can spend some time in prayer or Scripture study. It might mean giving up something you enjoy for a while so you can spend time with God and seeking to do his will. And I’m not just talking about coming to church on Sunday morning, but at times during the week as well. Remember that sheet I printed out with the Five Purposes of the Christian Life? Well the very top one on that list is to love God and to enjoy his presence. But to do that, sometimes we must turn away from the world and deny ourselves, so we can turn to him and offer ourselves to him.

(2) We also fight a battle with sin, and sometimes that battle can be very uncomfortable. Personally, I don’t like looking at myself and seeing just how broken and fallen I really am. Sometimes it is very painful for me to look at myself and realize how much in need of God I really am, to admit how powerless I truly am. But if we are going to take our battle with sin seriously, we have to do this, take an honest assessment of my own life. Not so we can wallow in self-pity, but so we can fight back, so we can turn to God in our darkest need and let him heal us. This is not nearly as easy as it sounds, people. I know. Doing this was perhaps the most painful thing I ever faced in my life, but also the most healing. But we’ve got to take this battle with sin seriously. Yes, God forgives us according to his mercy, but he also wants us to fight.

(3) We are also called to serve this world. We are Christ’s representatives on earth, which means that, just as he made the ultimate sacrifice for the whole world, we too are called to make sacrifices for others, this community, people we meet, and, yes, even the whole world. God has gifted us with abilities and resources. He doesn’t want us keeping them to ourselves; he wants us to put those to work for his kingdom.

But why should we, Pastor? The answer to your question is right there in the Scripture reading: “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.” We are not in control here. If we cling to our lives and our resources, hoping to keep them for some emergency, then there’s no guarantee we’ll keep them. You could lose everything tomorrow--your home, your business, even your life. And then where would you be? But if you offer up your talents and resources for the Lord, he’ll make sure they bear fruit. Your reward will be finding your place, your purpose, if you will, and knowing that what you’re sacrificing will be serving God’s kingdom in some way. But if not, then you’ll only be serving yourself, and not God, and that’s not what God intended for any of us. We were made for him, for his purposes. If we do not serve him, then we will not be living the lives he has called us to live.

I’m not talking about whether good works save or not. I hope I’ve made it very clear that only God’s mercy can save us. But here’s a question for you: do you just want a free ticket to heaven, with no strings attached? Or do you want to serve God, to follow our Lord Jesus Christ? If all you want is the free ticket, then that’s what we call cheap grace, and that is not the life God has called you to. But if you want to serve God and follow our Lord Jesus Christ, then be prepared to make some sacrifices.

As St. Paul said in Philippians, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!”

My question for you today is this: do you want to be a disciple of Christ? Are you willing to walk the Way of the Cross? Do you have the same attitude of self-giving that led our Lord Jesus Christ to suffer and die for you? Are you willing to make that sacrifice—whether it be time, money, your nice cozy little comfort zone, or even your very life—for the sake of this church and for others? This is the Way of the Cross, and it is the life our Lord has called us to. Our Lord sacrificed himself for us. Are we willing to sacrifice ourselves for him and for others?

A brief note about my preaching: I write manuscripts, but I do not read them. I just use them to help me organize my thoughts. I preach from memory, using only short outline, and adjust them for the needs of my listeners as necessary.

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

oh dont worry Big D, i'm as focused as i've ever been, if not more so than i use to...thus my reasoning for asking or writing what i did...

when i say i agree to just disagree and not make this into some sorta debate is over the whole issue of alcohol, personally for me, i dont believe christians should drink it, that's me personally, nothing no one says or does will make me believe different.

thus is why i say we should agree to disagree there

as for some of the other replies
whats her face said: [on the subject of hell, fire,and brimestone preaching...

Quote:

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the preaching of brimstone and eternal punishment is more effective at keeping church attendence up rather than preaching the gentler aspects of faith.

I'm no expert, but I'd say that it's that kind of preaching that turns many away from the church. Because the public is more educated now and most would prefer to be engaged intellectually, not scolded and threatened. And it's no good if people are scared into going to church - it wouldn't a genuine gesture of their faith.

well you gotta remember when i'm talking about hell, fire, and brimestone preaching i am refering to when lost folks come to church, i have heard complaints from folks who dont attend church at all, and our flat out lost and they tell say they've went to churches looking to hear about Jesus, the cross, heaven/hell, etc. etc.

they say the only time i can actually hear about any of these subjects is either Easter or Christmas, if i go at anytime in between all i hear is about how i rich i'm suppose to be and how that if i aint rich im not in the will of God and how that i'm suppose to be blessed and if i aint blessed i aint in the will of God, among other things

i agree we gotta have messages of encouragement and upliftings however we need to be reminded from time to time if we aint living up to the guide lines that we are suppose to be living, we as christians are fooling ourselves in thinking we are going to heaven!

thus i think from time to time we need messages of holiness or hell, and the hell, fire, and brimestone style preaching messages

lost folks especially needs to hear these messages and messages of the cross and about Jesus when they come, not about if they aint rich they are in Gods will, etc. etc.

kaemmerite wrote:

Quote:

But this should not be ALL there is to our faith. If you keep preaching hellfire/brimstone sermons, your church's spiritual growth is going to stagnate...they're going to keep hearing the same message over and over, and eventually, they'll turn into Homer:

"Why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell?"

The church is a place for the lost to visit, yes. But it is ALSO a place to help fellow believers grow in their knowledge of God. Their knowledge can't grow if they are preached the same thing over and over again.

i agree the church is a place to grow, but i think i answered this above too, when saying preachings of encouragement, being blessed, being rich (in the physical sent, not spiritual) is preached all the time, then that's when i disagree!

we gotta be reminded at times of where we are at and allow God to reveal to us where we are failing, i mean me personally i've never known of God to tell me where i'm feeling when i'm being pat on the back by the preaching telling me i'm doing a good job...ya know what im saying?

that's why i say from time to time we need messages like that of holiness or hell, the brimestone and fire type preaching, that will prick the heart and let us see where we need to improve!

Quote:

But what if someone is offended and says that women wearing pants is a sin? Should the entire female portion of the congregation that wear pants be forced to wear dresses just because of one guy who thinks this? We need to be respectful of others, yes, and we shouldn't do things that cause our brothers to stumble, but there is a line somewhere. You can't please all the people all the time.

in my area now, this is where i live, woman wearing a pair of pants or even decent shorts isnt as offencive to those considered as christians as seeing a member of a church, a deacon, a preacher, or even pastor with alcoholic drink in there hand....kinda goes back to the WWJD thing, i mean i honestly dont think i would ever see Jesus with a Bud, Bud light, or any other type of drink like that in his hands...do i think he would go there, witness to these ppl and tell them about Jesus...YES, but do i think he would do as they do?....NO....the bible says "we are in this world but not of this world", it also says "to be a separated ppl", 1st peter 2:9 says that we (christians) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people....

separated means - To set or keep apart; disunite, isolate, To come apart, To withdraw.

peculiar means - Unusual, odd, Distinct from all others.

how can we be considered either one of these if we do something that is commonly seen among most folks that arent church goers or even considered saved and profess Jesus as savior as their life?

Crystallina · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:09 am

I hate contemporary service. Everything about it. From the cutesy marketing techniques (Get saved! And buy our Proud To Be A Christian bumper sticker at an inflated price!) to the maddening attempts to make everything 'relevant'. Instead of trusting the congregation to be intelligent and thinking, everything is dumbed down, obvious, and I can see the "point" of most sermons I attend from the first few minutes or so. Let's not get started on the music. Too loud, too brash, and seemingly played just because it fits into modern musical trends, rather than the message.

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I want my church to take me away from the world's trappings of materialism and watered-down morals, not to further immerse me in them.

Didymus · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:14 am

No, you're not alone. I much prefer a classical liturgical service myself.

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

i agree, i as well like the "old" type services compaired to some of the more modern styles of worship

although i have nothing against loud music, but that's just me, it seems as if a lot of pentecostal style churches are loud though, so maybe im just use to it...lol

Occasional JD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:22 am

That's what my mum says. Every Christmas we have to go to Church, as we spend Christmas with our Christian cousins. The ceremony is nothing but everyone singing songs like "The child was born to save our sin, and everyone on earth believed." Mum's says, "when I was a kid, if I even moved we were being yelled at by a nun".

Tintin · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:55 am

I know of the sort of churches you mean but no church is sinless and I doubt all the hellfire and brimstone preaching is the way to approach it. Of course don't avoid that part, but the main issue is the mercy God had for us by sending His Son to die and rise to bridge the gap from us to God (created by sin). His awesome grace is a testiment of his undying love for us!

The Lutheran church I attend is great, modern but relevant without dumbing down or watering down the Bible and no matter what's talked about it all comes back to God's Word and what he says in it. Currently we are learning how to witness easier to people and serve people in all the ways we can. This is serving God through mission work. He loves us and we need to show His love to others so they too can become Christians.
Getting involved in the church ministry is important to keep everything running smoothly and this serves God and people. Also encouraging and supporting each other and helping each other out is good. Small groups are good for that.

There are churches like those you described, but please remember God's Grace for His people.

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

again i say, i'm not saying these messages need to be preached 24/7, 365 days a week and everytime we come to church

however these mamsey panzie messages of if you aint rich in the physical scence then you arent in God plan and wont make it to heaven and other things is invaild, have no support, or anything!

as i said i've had lost folks tell me they've went to church to hear about God and his salvation, but all they ever hear is how the church is to prosper and how we are suppose to be rich in the physical avenue and how that we are all so good and doing so good (talking about the church as a whole, but clearly that's a lie) among other things!

its kinda like a few words to a song i love to listen to says
"We'll go forward, if we just go back"

bible says seek out the old paths and walk therein...

i just believe its time we as a church, get back to old time living, with rights right and wrongs wrong, in todays society its reverse, today folks look at it and say wrong is right and right is wrong, get back to where we call it black or white, to where we call sin...sin and do something about it, than just let it lay doormat and not do nothing about it

i look at where the church use to be and how excited they was about doing Gods work and how they would tell the world of his saving grace, how they'd get out work in there communities telling ppl about Jesus, now we stay confound to the 4 walls of the church and say let the TV preachers do it

i just see a big imperfection in the church and think we need to get back on track, hold the banner high like we once did is all

Tintin · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:56 pm

Like I said, the church I attend isn't like that and not all churches are. Ofcourse Jesus isn't only for people with lots of money/wealth! I can't say I've heard that one before. All I've heard is that Jesus is for everyone, rich/poor and everything inbetween. Jesus did use all kinds of people in the Bible. We all sin and therefore all need forgiveness. Its whether or not one accepts Jesus that is the point that should be made.

In some ways I think you are right in that some churches are becoming more selfish, but I believe also that many churches are improving because they are letting God have His way and have the Holy Spirit working through them. It all starts by bringing a non-Christian to church and if they are uncomfortable with that going to an event of something and then talking with them afterwoulds and telling them about what Jesus has done for you (salvation) and what he can do for them (salvation).

King Nintendoid · **Posted:** Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:33 am

I think conservatism would just scare more people off.

Didy's sermon was very very interesting. Much more then this brimstone and hellfire stuff could ever be.

I dunno how stuff goes on in church, but if they preach like Didy, they need not change.

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:59 am

Whoa! Thanks KN. Didn't expect that.

JF95 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:16 am **Posts:** 18

i as well think Didymus's sermon was nice, however i still think the messages of hell/fire/ and brimestone should be preached when the lost is in the house....

i dont think when the lost comes that they need to be told how good they are and how good they are doing and that everything is alright

cause honestly if they havent made things right between themselves and God, then everything is far from being alright

my best friend/pastor has a power sermon on hell called "what then" comes from about the story of the rich man and lazarus, i wish i had a copy of the sermon, or even an audio clip of it, i would let you guys preview it!

he also has another sermon on the 7 torments of hell...he gets a lot of positive responses from both christians and lost folks alike

two very powerful messages IMO

which i have some links to sermons of mine, that i've put on my own personal web site...mine on my site are more of the up lifting/encouraging type sermons though, at least i think they would be considered that...lol

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