Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

You are all aware of that open letter to the Kansas Board of Education concerning intelligent design--A friend of mine showed it to me back when it was new.

Before anyone gets any ideas--yes, I did find it amusing, especially since I think the concept of intelligent design is more appropriate for a philosophy class and not science, since it's a theory (more like a hypothesis, actually) that cannot be falsified, at least not easily.

The thing that also relieved me is that the writer's agenda was not to lampoon the concept of having a religious belief--in his words on the FAQ, he has no problem with religion, only when it's passed off as a science. I agree--the two are seperate, and it's been shown that scientests are largely of some religious bent too.

Well ... the Flying Spaghetti Monster's taking a malicious turn.

There's a personality cult, a pseudo religion of sorts, that's manifested around the FSM. That's not bad. I'm sure that there's still some 'Pastafarians' who take it as it was, a joke and all, a silly thing to have fun with.

What is bad is, well ... atheist zealots (note my distinction there before you jump on me) have flocked to it and have used it as a way to mock religion as a whole--similar to the "Church of the Invisible Pink Pony" that atheists from the Usenet alt.atheism boards came up with some time ago.

As far as I can tell, the author has also taken this turn in leading the popularity movement in this way.

This tells you everything you need to know. Now granted ... I did not read through the whole topic (I couldn't bear to go on ... the views expressed disturbed and disheartened me that much) and thus I may have missed out on a involved debate over the topic, but browse the forums, and you'll see more of the same in varying strengths. There are a few attempts by others to make a stand, but ... well. Most of what I've seen ends up with the group laughing in their face.

There's nothing I can do about it--it seems like certain suicide to try and jump in to argue for religious tolerance against people like this, especially since the forum appears to be well-stocked with them.

The best I could do is anonymously post a link to, say, the LiveScience article about the religious views of scientists to quietly dispell some of their self-confident myths ("religion is for the weakminded and insane, only the unintelligent and lesser beings are religious, the intellectuals widely embrace atheism as the truth"), but ...

I fear for the future of humanity, if this brand of atheism becomes more popular ... This is why I say atheists are, as a religious position, exactly like any other religious grouping. They have their own extremists who'd like to abolish all differing opinion, compared to tolerant moderates (comparing two atheists I encountered on another community, one named Scorch who was hateful and another named Visions of Khas who was a cool, easy-going guy and had a respect for others), and well, I could go at length drawing comparisons between atheism and traits commonly shared by other religious positions ...

It's bad enough that we have to deal with the damage that the Pat Robertsons and Osama Bin Ladens do to the image of religion as a whole AND individual, respective religions. But ... despite my views on atheism being no different from other religious positions in terms of makeup, opinions, existence of organized groups (yes, I've found that "freethinker churches" do exist, FSM's cult nonwithstanding ... though they do cater to all brands of freethinkers, which includes Deists) and behavior of its adherents ... there is something different, something scary, about atheist zealots who want to see even the slighest hint that someone believes in the divine or supernatural crushed.

I have to admit, this is why I tend to be a little scared of atheism and the prospect if it becoming even more popular--because most of those I see are like this ... even when I know that many exist like, well, that guy Visions of Khas from the Blizzforums, who are rather cool. I highly respect atheists like him--but these other guys, like the ones who posted in the FSM church topic ...

I'm just afraid.

EDIT: A friend just told me she added a post to that thread criticizing their advocation for removal of all religions ... she's way braver than me, I'll say that much.

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Pastafarianism is a parody religion based around a parody of Intelligent Design. Us atheists huddle together in stuff like this because:

A. It's fun
B. It forces theists to look in the mirror and examine how others see them. A holy congregation of spaghetti, meatballs and sauce that creates all and intevenes in our lives as it pleases is weird, very very weird, but basicly it's how we see god: an impossible deity.
C. Did I mention it's fun?

Now, of course you're startled by this. But I've been scared out of my pants when I visted christian or muslim forums. Stuff much more extreme then this gets posted there. Trust me.

Judging from your response ... you didn't appear to read the bits where I explained that I had seen the FSM stuff early on, knew what it was parodying, and actually found it funny.

The whole thing has changed though, from lampooning advocates of intelligent design into religion in general. That's still not bad--otherwise I wouldn't crack up over the Church of the Sub-Genius.

It's the attitudes of the posters I see there that make me shudder.

"i also have a theory that religion is an act of terroism. someone very smart a long time ago knew how stupid humanity can be, and thereby invented religions"

WTF, seriously?

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Trev.... you obviously thought something as hyped as FSMism wouldn't attract the less intelligent? 80% of what you're reading there consists of kids that just hit puberty and can't put forth a good argument.

Some of them ARE very well-informed, and those are the ones you should debate with.

Your first mistake was visiting the forums. This is the internet. In case you're new to it, let me orient you: the internet gives everybody a voice, and most of those voices are attached to stupid people. It was naive of you to expect anything different. Just because they're smart enough to type doesn't mean they're smart enough to type something worthy of your attention, or all this fretting.

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The forum on the FSM website is a joke, the entire site and the idea of a Flying Spaghetti Monster is a joke.

I don't see a problem here.

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

KN/Jones: No. Also, Jones, I've been using the Internet since 1996, which has given me AMPLE time to encounter all kinds of situations, so the sarcasm wasn't necessary. Now, given my past experiences, I DID (repeat: DID) expect to see some zealots, and some wildly insane views.

What I did NOT expect was the sheer volume of them, and the kind of "logic" they're using to advocate abolition of religions.



I wish it were the case, KN, but again, past experiences and my frame of knowledge has found that those attitudes can be displayed by people my age and older. A few days ago I clashed that atheist, Scorch. He's 20/21. One year younger than me.

The other atheist who was rational, tolerant, and far more intelligent in conversation, Visions of Khas, is three years younger than me.

The same disparity can go for people of any other religious position, of course.

As for the FSM forum posters, I would have to go and inspect profiles for birthday dates ... but I don't even want to look at that place again.



I doubt anything can get WORSE than what I've seen over at FSM's forums, but I don't doubt that there are places where such opinions are rivaled.




For KN: Remember what you said you've done when faced with people opposite your religious position who were ignorant of many well-known scientific facts, and 'converted' them?

No, I'm not suggesting I convert people like that into Christians--what I do, though would be suicidal to try in this case, is argue the hate and ignorance out of them, and (in this case) dispell myths they have about their own religious position (such as the myth that atheists are inherently more intelligent ...). I attempt to promote tolerance of other religious positions.

The rational, respectful, and tolerant atheists I have no problem with, and given the kind of experiences I've ran into, I respect those kinds of atheists greatly.

For Jones: I understand you're relating to Penny Arcade's Internet Forkwad Theory, that "this is the internet and people will act like jerks because they can get away with it," and therefore I shouldn't worry about it.

Here's the problem, though, and this also addresses Tor Coolguy's observation: Yes, the FSM forums are part of the joke, but the people who are posting that crap in the "serious discussion" forum very likely hold the views they're advocating, but might not be as vocal about it in real life for obvious reasons.

Memes DO have power, and DO propagate. They can propogate very easily, too. I'm not sure I'd want to see any sort of intolerant ideas like that spread. Sure, I'm making a big deal about the atheists of FSM in this thread, but to demonstrate my point, I did and still do argue with other religious people if they're Pat Robertson/Jack Chick wannabes.

That's why I fret over it. That's also why I felt so disheartened by it--this is not a place I can just jump in.

But anyways, do you guys see where I'm going with this?

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I dunno. Every web forum is gonna attract the extremists. I'd imagine it's the same on some of the Christian or Muslim forums. It's not like this is new stuff. People have been doing this for ages. Niztche, I think? (bad spelling, sorry) "Religion is the opiate of the masses" and all that. These people, especially the bad speller who started the thread you linked to, don't seem like intellectual giants, even with their talk. I agree though, it doens't look like you'd get a whole lot of tolerence if you jumped in there. But isn't it like that on lots of religious forums? Sorry if this post doesn't make any sense or something: I'm kinda tired right now.

Edit: I posted before reading the whole article. He wants laws against religion, I just have to laugh. It's like he totally doens't realize that this has been done before, just usually its banning all but one religion instead of banning all but atheism. If they banned all religion, religion would grow so strong he wouldn't know what hit him.

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"CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME!!!!"

- Unknown

That was Karl Marx. Nietzche was the "God is dead" chap.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Yeah this topic is old, bot does it matter?
Anyway, did anybody see the FSM on Attack of the Show on Saturday? This was on a Canadian TV channel so it could just be syndicated, but I don't know. I thought it was funny.

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I absolutely despise those kind of atheists. Smug little crap with no respect for people genuinely different from them, not much better than fundies.

They AREN'T doing this to lightly jest - I've met these kind of people online and they are completely doing it to assert their "logical superiority" over theists, and showing how anyone that believes in religion is ridiculous.

When presented with exact and logical arguments of how a Spagetti monster is not comparable to the more basic concept of God of X or Y, they ignore half of your points and accuse you of somehow being intolerant.

The truth is that atheism is JUST AS BAD as any religion. There's less bigotry when it coems to things like sexuality, but when it comes to religion, they're just as bad, if not worse, than many world religions, and it's time someone gave them a look in the mirror.

That Kansas board of education just has it coming. Did you see what happened to their little counterparts in Pennsylvania? One word:

PWNED!!!!!!

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Where do you get those anti-spagetti monster arguments? I don't have near enough energy to try to think of some on my own, and it may come in handy some day. Mostly I'd like to read it because stuff about the spagetti monster makes me mad, but I feel like taking the time to figure out how to refute it.

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"CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME!!!!"

- Unknown

The Spagetthi monster doesn't affect people like the board of Kansas in the least. at the end of the day, it only ends up hurting us lighter theists who actually mix among atheists as we see what they really think of us.

Rosalie, I think if you stepped back and considered for a moment just how much you sound like those very high-and-mighty self-righteous Christians and atheists that you spend so much time complaining about, you would be horrified. You and I agree on a lot of topics, but I don't think I'd ever want you on my side in a debate; you're worse than some of the worst proselytizers I've met.

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I don't see how that post was neccessary in any stretch of it. I was making a valid point, and quite frankly, whether you claim to be on my side or not, I don't give two craps what you think.

The post was off-topic, I'll admit, and has less to do with the post I replied to than the many, many posts you've made that have an arrogant, self-righteous tone that puts some of our worst trolls to shame. You clearly have a complete lack of respect for any person, be they Christian, atheist, agnostic, pagan, or otherwise, whose opinions differ from yours even in the slightest. You are the very sort of person you spend so much time complaining about. I believed it was necessary to make you aware of that, though I doubt it will do much to improve your outlook or disposition.

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And I believe it's necessary for you to shut up. Quite frankly, out of all the things that have been said, I don't think anything's been more insulting, arrogant, or snooty(making me aware of how I'm clearly one of the worst humans alive - go screw yourself) than your last two posts.

Too much hate. Please calm down. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. If you are just going to flame anyone who wants to voice their opinion, go elsewhere. If you want to make intelligent discussion with a solid backup to what your saying, stay. But remember to respect everyone, even if you don't agree with what they say.

Thankyou

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Posts like that further reinforce our opinions of you. You're not gonna win any friends telling someone like Jones to shut up. He wasn't telling you that we were wrong, just that you need to be as civil as you expect everyone else to.
If you're better than those you argue with, childish posts in your direction (from me or anyone else) shouldn't result in childish posts from you.
I've gone toe to toe with Jones on a couple of things before, and, I can say that he is one of the more civil people on the net, unless you tell him he looke like a Hanson brother, then he gets stu to stab you in the face.
In short, chill. Please.
TOASTPAINT!!

I have a question. Why do people assume this theory is a Christian theory? Christians aren't the only theists, you know.

Also, I was I was against IDT, cus I have the funniest thing on earth to use: "Just because you call it intelligent doesn't make it intelligent."
ok, so I guess that belongs in the R&P humor thread.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

And you have no problem with InterruptorJones' post, I'm sure?

At least what I said was baed on undeniable behaviour, rather than presumptions on motive, which makes up IJ's post in it's entirity. I said that people did things that I consdired very wrong, even evil(I think we've all done something evil in our lives) - but I was careful not to dismiss the person as a whole and everything they stand for as wrong and evil.

IJ takes the opposite approach. He tells me that I'm a horrible human being with no respect for anyone else, worse than the worst of trolls, and I need to "realise" this.



I really hate that. In doing that, he couldn't possibly any better than me anyway, because his last comment shows he's asserting it as a fact I need to wake up to.

I think saying someone has a complete lack of respect for other human beings is extremely abhorrent. My arguments are based around respect. Just because I am angry with someone or what they do is NOT solid evidence that I disrespect them as a human being- I do hold the right however, to disrespect an opinion if it lacks backing or a justifiable motive. Since I came here I've met with strongly conservative ideals that conflict with mine, and it's very difficult for me as I've been pretty much fighting on my own against a board for this long.

How could I not be frustrated?

The more important question is why you would fight. What's the point in being so confrontational. If a majority of a board disagrees with you, you should just drop it. We have a wide range of beliefs and values in this board. No matter how many times you say it, not everyone here is conservative, nor are conservative ideas all evil and/or wrong.
The reason we get along is that we respect other people's rights, even if they don't respect ours. We respect other people's right to have an opinion and sometimes we agree to disagree.
I don't know that I would be arguing with an admin. Disagreeing is AOK, but to tell one of them (or anyone) to shut up, that's not good debating, and it's slipping to the level of those you despise... Not good, amigo.

It doesn't suprise me that you're frustrated, but I am suprised that you wouldn't expect to be frustrated, especially when you argue with people that agree with you.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

But the problem is, there are some things i just can't respect, like forcing your beliefs on people. I will never respect that "view".

I think people as a whole are far too complacent when it comes to that kind of thing.

We respect your right to believe that. I sort of agree.

But if we respect you and are courteous to you, shouldn't you show the same behavior to us? You do not have the right to insult, belittle, and mock those who disagree with you. Like it or not, it's what you do. You tell StrongRad his brain is disabled (or something like that), you tell Didymus he's evil, for God's sake, you call Mr. Kiss an idiot and tell him to shut up, and you tell IJ he should go screw himself. Come on.

Have you considered that maybe when every person on an entire forum tells you something about the way your personality comes across, that maybe they might have a point?

Please. Just calm down.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

You know what, Rosalie? I agree with him. For somebody who claims to be tolerant and kind, you're quite arrogant yourself. It seems that you can't accept any form of criticism. And you just told an ADMIN to go screw himself. (At least, I think he's an admin. He's at least a mod.) Not a good idea. At all. And you've told off quite a few other highly respected forumgoers--also not a good idea.

Anyway, back on topic. I looked at the message board, and I found it quite revolting. Yes, religion has caused wars and murders and other horrible things, but it's also brought a great deal of good to the world. In addition, not all religious people are evil--the VAST majority are normal, kind people.

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After reading through any argument of religion on these forums, I wish religious freedom was more like freedom of food choice.

*Dinner table setting*
Me: Here, John, try some lobster! It's really tasty!"
John: "Alright!" *chomp* "Mmmm, tasty, yes."
Sue: "Eh, I really don't like lobster."
Me: *keeps eating*

*Theoretical dinner table setting*
Me: "Mmm, the Christianity's really good, try some!"
John: "Islam pwns you! Allah! Take your Christianity and . . . "
Sue: "Shove it over here, I'll try some, I guess. Ewww Christ wasn't all that great, JUDAISM FOR TEH WIN, YO!"
Bob: "THERE IS NO GOD! BIG BANG THEORY! WE'RE ALL ALONE! THERE IS NO GOD!
Me: "And that's why you're yelling, Bob. Pass the salt."

I feel it's important that we all chill out and eat some fruit or something. Go for a walk, maybe. Props to civility.

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OMG BEES DOT COM is all up in the hizzy, fools!

Eh. I saw the Spaghetti Monster site back when it was relatively new. I was mildly amused, but thought "So how long until we get the flood of idiot atheists?" (And by 'idiot atheists' I mean 'atheists who are idiots', and not 'all atheists are idiots'.)

I hate being right about things like this.

Major rofflage. And it raises a good point.

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Hay I'm 13 and I am great at debating

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Wow, It's been like three or 4 years since I've last been here

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, R. IJ and I are like total opposites on most things (except the war in Iraq--he and I were both pretty much against it).

Keep in mind, IJ is an ADMIN, which means he could ban your butt if he wanted to. Consider his warning a tender mercy.

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