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Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!
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Author:  Biscuithead [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Droideka is right. It's saying women are not supposed to have religious authority. They shouldn't be in a position to teach men about religious affairs.
Now this may be one of those cultural things that's not relevant in modren times. (There are a lot of rules in the bible which were only there in keeping with society's standards 2000 years ago)

But the way I see it, yeah, it's sexist. The bible is sexist, it's also racist (Jesus himself was racist towards non-Jewish people) and it's against a lot of the things society thinks are right today. Religion shouldn't change to fit in with society.

I think women shouldn't be in authority over men. It's that simple. Of course this only applies to religious matters, I'm all for women's rights in the workplace etc.

Author:  Jitka [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
I think women shouldn't be in authority over men. It's that simple.


See, that's not OK. Leadership should be solely based on experience, expertise, and qualifications.


Obama 08

Author:  Biscuithead [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

It's not about leadership. A woman can be a leader all she wants. She just shouldn't teach in religious matters.

Author:  Jitka [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
It's not about leadership. A woman can be a leader all she wants. She just shouldn't teach in religious matters.


Jitka wrote:
See, that's not OK.

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
It's not about leadership. A woman can be a leader all she wants. She just shouldn't teach in religious matters.


Ridiculous.

Author:  ramrod [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
It's not about leadership. A woman can be a leader all she wants. She just shouldn't teach in religious matters.

So you have problems with Nuns teaching Sunday School? What about some of those Protestant churches that have female preachers? Hell, what about the ladies that followed Jesus around? Jesus taught peace and equality. So why shouldn't a woman have as much of a right to preach about God as men do? What makes it so important that only men can be preachers?

Just remember this, there are more women in this world.

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

ramrod wrote:
Biscuithead wrote:
It's not about leadership. A woman can be a leader all she wants. She just shouldn't teach in religious matters.

So you have problems with Nuns teaching Sunday School? What about some of those Protestant churches that have female preachers? Hell, what about the ladies that followed Jesus around? Jesus taught peace and equality. So why shouldn't a woman have as much of a right to preach about God as men do? What makes it so important that only men can be preachers?

Just remember this, there are more women in this world.


I love you.

Author:  ramrod [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
ramrod wrote:
Biscuithead wrote:
It's not about leadership. A woman can be a leader all she wants. She just shouldn't teach in religious matters.

So you have problems with Nuns teaching Sunday School? What about some of those Protestant churches that have female preachers? Hell, what about the ladies that followed Jesus around? Jesus taught peace and equality. So why shouldn't a woman have as much of a right to preach about God as men do? What makes it so important that only men can be preachers?

Just remember this, there are more women in this world.


I love you.

Thank you, my dear.

Author:  Biscuithead [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

ramrod wrote:
So you have problems with Nuns teaching Sunday School? What about some of those Protestant churches that have female preachers? Hell, what about the ladies that followed Jesus around? Jesus taught peace and equality. So why shouldn't a woman have as much of a right to preach about God as men do? What makes it so important that only men can be preachers?

Just remember this, there are more women in this world.


That's the one I have problems with. Women can teach children, that's ok, but they shouldn't be in a position of religious authority over a man. Take a look at the context of that verse COLA pointed out, it's very clear.

The bible also says women should be submissive to men, and while the church often interperets this as meaning "loyal to their husbands" I think that's just a cop-out.

And for the record, Jesus taught peace, but he did not teach equality. There was one story where a Gentile woman came up to him asking for healing and he rebuked her, saying he wouldn't take God's food from His children and give it to a dog. But then she said "even dogs get to eat the scraps from the children's table", and only then did he heal her.

You see, society wants everyone to be equal, and the church wants to fit in with society. But it shouldn't.

Author:  Jitka [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
ramrod wrote:
So you have problems with Nuns teaching Sunday School? What about some of those Protestant churches that have female preachers? Hell, what about the ladies that followed Jesus around? Jesus taught peace and equality. So why shouldn't a woman have as much of a right to preach about God as men do? What makes it so important that only men can be preachers?

Just remember this, there are more women in this world.


That's the one I have problems with. Women can teach children, that's ok, but they shouldn't be in a position of religious authority over a man. Take a look at the context of that verse COLA pointed out, it's very clear.

The bible also says women should be submissive to men, and while the church often interperets this as meaning "loyal to their husbands" I think that's just a cop-out.

And for the record, Jesus taught peace, but he did not teach equality. There was one story where a Gentile woman came up to him asking for healing and he rebuked her, saying he wouldn't take God's food from His children and give it to a dog. But then she said "even dogs get to eat the scraps from the children's table", and only then did he heal her.

You see, society wants everyone to be equal, and the church wants to fit in with society. But it shouldn't.


This post tells me that you cannot be swayed from your wrong opinion.

But rest assured that you are wrong. I don't feel like going into detail here, other than pointing out that if the Bible promotes inequality of any kind, then simply put the Bible is wrong.

Author:  Biscuithead [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Actually I change my opinions all the time.

I just haven't seen any convincing evidence that I'm wrong here.

Author:  Jitka [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Your position is that because the Bible says that women should not have authority over men, this means that is correct.

How can you think that might be OK?

Author:  ramrod [ Thu May 01, 2008 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
ramrod wrote:
So you have problems with Nuns teaching Sunday School? What about some of those Protestant churches that have female preachers? Hell, what about the ladies that followed Jesus around? Jesus taught peace and equality. So why shouldn't a woman have as much of a right to preach about God as men do? What makes it so important that only men can be preachers?

Just remember this, there are more women in this world.


That's the one I have problems with. Women can teach children, that's ok, but they shouldn't be in a position of religious authority over a man. Take a look at the context of that verse COLA pointed out, it's very clear.

The bible also says women should be submissive to men, and while the church often interperets this as meaning "loyal to their husbands" I think that's just a cop-out.

And for the record, Jesus taught peace, but he did not teach equality. There was one story where a Gentile woman came up to him asking for healing and he rebuked her, saying he wouldn't take God's food from His children and give it to a dog. But then she said "even dogs get to eat the scraps from the children's table", and only then did he heal her.

You see, society wants everyone to be equal, and the church wants to fit in with society. But it shouldn't.

There are many things in the bible that were correct in the times standards, but things have changed. Are we to stone adulters on the street now a days?

Also, how is a Nun teaching children any different from them teaching adults? They are still preforming the same basic act.

We as religious people (I'm saying this in a generalized manner. Everyone, not just you and me) have to realize the basic concept of the bible and not have a pissing contest on the literal interpetations. For Christians, that basic concept is that Jesus loves us all, and to love one another. To treat each other as we would like to be treated. That is the Golden Rule. How would you feel if the roles were reversed? If only the females were allowed to preach?

Author:  Biscuithead [ Thu May 01, 2008 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Yeah maybe this is one of those things that should change with time. But I don't like the idea of the church omitting all those rules that just don't seem like they should be followed.

And if I was instructed by the teachers in the bible to be submissive, then yes, I would do my best to do that. I don't particularly want to be a preacher anyway, but if I wanted to, yet God was leading me away from it, I guess I'd just have to follow His will.

Oh, and yes Jitka, if the bible explicitly says something, then I believe it. But most of the time it's open to a little bit of interperetation, like with this issue.

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
Yeah maybe this is one of those things that should change with time. But I don't like the idea of the church omitting all those rules that just don't seem like they should be followed.

And if I was instructed by the teachers in the bible to be submissive, then yes, I would do my best to do that. I don't particularly want to be a preacher anyway, but if I wanted to, yet God was leading me away from it, I guess I'd just have to follow His will.

Oh, and yes Jitka, if the bible explicitly says something, then I believe it. But most of the time it's open to a little bit of interperetation, like with this issue.


Lead the sheep to the wolves...

If you want my opinion, I'd say that the very forces the Bible claim that they're against - Are the ones that wrote it.

[/controversial opinion]

Author:  ramrod [ Thu May 01, 2008 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Just remember Biscuit that we are free by nature. None of us should ever have to be submissive (Unless you're like me and into that kinky stuff.....)

Um...

Anyways, we are all born with the same rights as people. There are none that are any 'morally superior'. What you have to say should mean the same as what I, The freaking Pope, or G.W. Bush says. We have to fight for these rights as people, and not be forced into unjust submission. (Once again, unless you...nevermind)

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

ramrod wrote:
Just remember Biscuit that we are free by nature. None of us should ever have to be submissive (Unless you're like me and into that kinky stuff.....)

Um...

Anyways, we are all born with the same rights as people. There are none that are any 'morally superior'. What you have to say should mean the same as what I, The freaking Pope, or G.W. Bush says. We have to fight for these rights as people, and not be forced into unjust submission. (Once again, unless you...nevermind)


:O ... :mrgreen: Niiiiice. If ever I need handcuffs, I know who to go to...

Author:  ramrod [ Thu May 01, 2008 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
ramrod wrote:
Just remember Biscuit that we are free by nature. None of us should ever have to be submissive (Unless you're like me and into that kinky stuff.....)

Um...

Anyways, we are all born with the same rights as people. There are none that are any 'morally superior'. What you have to say should mean the same as what I, The freaking Pope, or G.W. Bush says. We have to fight for these rights as people, and not be forced into unjust submission. (Once again, unless you...nevermind)


:O ... :mrgreen: Niiiiice. If ever I need handcuffs, I know who to go to...

I actually have a pair...

I should shut up now...

Author:  furrykef [ Thu May 01, 2008 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
(Jesus himself was racist towards non-Jewish people)


Eh? Examples?

Author:  StrongRad [ Thu May 01, 2008 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Biscuithead wrote:
Yeah maybe this is one of those things that should change with time. But I don't like the idea of the church omitting all those rules that just don't seem like they should be followed.

And if I was instructed by the teachers in the bible to be submissive, then yes, I would do my best to do that. I don't particularly want to be a preacher anyway, but if I wanted to, yet God was leading me away from it, I guess I'd just have to follow His will.

Oh, and yes Jitka, if the bible explicitly says something, then I believe it. But most of the time it's open to a little bit of interperetation, like with this issue.


Lead the sheep to the wolves...

If you want my opinion, I'd say that the very forces the Bible claim that they're against - Are the ones that wrote it.

[/controversial opinion]

I beg to differ, very much.

Author:  Droideka [ Thu May 01, 2008 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

ramrod wrote:
There are many things in the bible that were correct in the times standards, but things have changed. Are we to stone adulters on the street now a days?

Also, how is a Nun teaching children any different from them teaching adults? They are still preforming the same basic act.

We as religious people (I'm saying this in a generalized manner. Everyone, not just you and me) have to realize the basic concept of the bible and not have a tick contest on the literal interpetations. For Christians, that basic concept is that Jesus loves us all, and to love one another. To treat each other as we would like to be treated. That is the Golden Rule. How would you feel if the roles were reversed? If only the females were allowed to preach?

Not necessarily, but the Bible says God gave authority to government to, in the event it was outlawed. Do I think it should happen? Not really, no. I don't think it's right, but not something to be killed over.

In general, there's not a huge amount of difference. But in the context of teaching Sunday School, most teachers I know use some form of teaching device (Books, etc.) and don't stray from it. I've never been to a Catholic church, so I don't know what Nuns do. But honestly. If I was a little kid, I'd have been terrified of having a guy teach rather than a woman. (Actually, in my church, women aren't allowed to teach Sunday School. Not something I agree with, in my opinion women just shouldn't be elders or pastors, and maybe offices. Sunday School is okay)

The Bible, as it was written, has various ways of being translated. The Greek words, and their translations, tell/say what can be interpreted as literal Vs. (For lack of a better phrase) open for discussion.

When Christ gave the last supper, for example, he said Is. End of statement. He left no room for debate, he meant it was His Body and Blood, and so on and so forth. Same case in the Epistles.

My dad was a pastor, I've heard this debate before.

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

StrongRad wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Lead the sheep to the wolves...

If you want my opinion, I'd say that the very forces the Bible claim that they're against - Are the ones that wrote it.

[/controversial opinion]

I beg to differ, very much.


Like I said, it's just my opinion. Whether people differ with me or not isn't likely to effect it. I'm not expecting believers to be like, "omg, you're RIGHT!" or anything.

Author:  Ju Ju Master [ Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Biscuithead wrote:
I just haven't seen any convincing evidence that I'm wrong here.

'Cause its sexist. And that's wrong.

There is no reason a woman should be treated any differently or given any less opportunities than a man simply because of their sex. It's discrimination, simple as that.

Author:  HHFOV [ Thu May 01, 2008 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

Yeah, I think I stopped reading after I saw "Women should never have authority over men" or something similar.

Author:  StrongRad [ Thu May 01, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Lead the sheep to the wolves...

If you want my opinion, I'd say that the very forces the Bible claim that they're against - Are the ones that wrote it.

[/controversial opinion]

I beg to differ, very much.


Like I said, it's just my opinion. Whether people differ with me or not isn't likely to effect it. I'm not expecting believers to be like, "omg, you're RIGHT!" or anything.

The "Sheep" comment was fairly bigoted, though.
I'm pretty much the opposite of a sheep.
I was led to religion by myself. I questioned a lot of stuff and left the church for a little bit. After some self-reflection, I found myself going back, not because I was a sheep, nor out of fear, but because of the part of me that felt filled by God.

As for the "written by people who are the people they claim to be against", I can see that in places. It does seem like that.

Most churches don't go for that whole "women don't belong in the church" bit. You have to look at that in the context of the times the Bible was written. At the time, if anyone was "learned" among society, it was the men. The women were too busy running things (and they were running a lot of stuff) to be educated (also education was more or less denied to women). The leaders of the church needed to be learned individuals. My guess is, a writer took "an individual should be a learned individual to have a role in the church" and stretched it to "women can't have roles in the church". I could be wrong, though. I wasn't around back then.
I mean, every church I've been to has had women lead Sunday school classes, Choir, etc (and that includes Southern Baptist churches). My current church has women in higher, management spots in the church. We have a male pastor (I don't think the ELCA prohibits female pastors, but I don't know of any), but our service will be held by one of the "management" of the synod this weekend. I don't know much about her, but I know she's fairly big into advocacy for the poor, homeless, etc (which is a good thing).

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

StrongRad wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Like I said, it's just my opinion. Whether people differ with me or not isn't likely to effect it. I'm not expecting believers to be like, "omg, you're RIGHT!" or anything.

The "Sheep" comment was fairly bigoted, though.


God Himself has called us all sheep, and he is the Shepherd, so being called a sheep can't be insulting can it? I'm not about to argue with your beliefs, but I still believe what I believe.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and I was very devote, so believe me when I say I know what I've read and I'm aware of the history behind it. My eyes are wiiiiiiide open. I'm not saying yours are closed, or that anyone that believes in the bible is wrong, I just have a very differing opinion of who is attempting to pull the strings of humanity.

Author:  StrongRad [ Thu May 01, 2008 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Like I said, it's just my opinion. Whether people differ with me or not isn't likely to effect it. I'm not expecting believers to be like, "omg, you're RIGHT!" or anything.

The "Sheep" comment was fairly bigoted, though.


[color=#400080]God Himself has called us all sheep, and he is the Shepherd, so being called a sheep can't be insulting can it?
I took it as offensive only because most of the time, people use it in a derogatory sense; those with religion aren't smart enough to figure things out for themselves. If that's not how you meant it, then you are right. God DID call us sheep; His flock.
Like I said, if you didn't say it in a derogatory way, then I won't take it as one. We walk away, shake hands, and throw stuff at the mean kids.

Quote:
I'm not about to argue with your beliefs, but I still believe what I believe.

Fair enough. I'm not about to try to convert someone on the internet (or in real life, for that matter). I've never seen it happen (I've never seen a "now that you mention it" moment).
I've never felt it's a Christian's job to try to tell people how they should live. In fact, I feel it's counterproductive to try to "preach" to someone who doesn't want to be preached to.

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

StrongRad wrote:
Like I said, if you didn't say it in a derogatory way, then I won't take it as one. We walk away, shake hands, and throw stuff at the mean kids.


Yeah, I really can't think it as derogatory... I, myself, was called a sheep very frequently when I was deep in my faith. I always turned it around into something positive.

StrongRad wrote:
I've never felt it's a Christian's job to try to tell people how they should live. In fact, I feel it's counterproductive to try to "preach" to someone who doesn't want to be preached to.


Which is nice. You see a lot of hardcore religions out there that are so in-your-face.. So I appreciate you not clawing my eyes out for my blasphemies. ;)

Author:  StrongRad [ Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Which is nice. You see a lot of hardcore religions out there that are so in-your-face.. So I appreciate you not clawing my eyes out for my blasphemies. ;)

I'll wait til you're asleep.
So, sleep with one eye open, gripping your pillow tight...(it makes eye clawing so much easier).

My "not preaching" isn't to say I don't "witness", but even that is more of a "show how God has helped me" or "show how God says we should live" person than a "tell people how they're going to burn in hell because they don't hop on one foot for 30 seconds the first wednesday after the first sunday after the third full moon of the lunar year" type Christian.

Author:  TheFacelessEvil [ Thu May 01, 2008 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bible FAQ: Doubts? Curiosities? Contradictions? Come here!

StrongRad wrote:
I'll wait til you're asleep.
So, sleep with one eye open, gripping your pillow tight...(it makes eye clawing so much easier).


:eek: ................ :eekdance:

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