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Does the Bible contradict itself?
Yes. 30%  30%  [ 15 ]
No. 26%  26%  [ 13 ]
Only if you take it literally. 44%  44%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 50
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:40 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
But with Christ, aren't we still imperfect? I know I'm a Christian, but I don't get how the Bible can say that we must be perfect, but also that we basically can't be.


We are in the process of being made perfect, called "sanctification". Also, we are perfect in God's eyes when we have the "lens" of Jesus. Jesus washes away our sins, so God sees us as perfect.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:43 am 
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The command is to be perfect, and yet we can't, because the perfection we strive for will always be out of reach. We are in a dilemma where all we can do is rely on Christ. If we could be perfect, then we wouldn't really need Christ, now would we?

But like Douglas says, as long as we are in Christ, then when God looks at us, he will see the perfection of Christ.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:47 am 
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Thanks, guys. :) That makes much more sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:19 am 
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Diddy and Dougy wrote:
the right answer


Yeah, thanks guys. That was definitely better said than what I was trying to formulate. Grand jorb to everyone!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:12 am 
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I really don't understand the book of revelation. Could someone please, to the best of their ability explain it to me. Ive read it, but don't understand it

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:27 am 
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I'll take a shot at it.

First of all, the book was written by St. John sometime around 70 or 80 AD. At that time, the Roman emperors, starting with Nero, began to severely persecute the Church. Nero, in fact, passed laws requiring all people within the Empire to make sacrifices to his statue and declare him God.

The book begins with St. John seeing a vision of Jesus. Jesus then instructs him to write seven letters to seven churches in Asia (modern day turkey). These churches were undergoing various problems, from internal controversies, to cultural pressures to compromise their faith, to outright persecution of their faith.

After addressing the problems of these churches, John is then given a vision of things that were about to happen, starting with a vision of the heavenly throne. The next chapters then cryptically describe events that were either taking place at that time or were going to take place in the near future.

Now why were these descriptions so cryptic? Part of the reason might be the pressure the church was under from the Empire. After all, if you are writing things about the emperor, you probably wouldn't want the emperor to be able to read it, now would you?

Pay attention to the Beasts in Chapter 13. The first one is a horrible looking thing with multiple heads and horns. This is Rome. How do I konw? Well, read Daniel sometime. Daniel saw visions of four great beasts. From reading the whole book, we know that the first (a Lion) is Babylon, the second (a Bear) is Persia, and the third (a winged Leopard) is Greece under Alexander the Great. The fourth, a horrid beast with multiple heads and horns, is never named. But, if you follow the progression, it makes sense. Babylon was conquered by Persia, Persia by Greece, and Greece by Rome.

So, at least from my perspective, the events described in Revelation are the events that took place under the Roman persecutions.

The book ends, as many apocalyptic books do, by focusing the reader's attention on God's ultimate victory in the very last days.

The overarching theme is that, in this age, we will face all sorts of evil, and there will be times when we will feel that God has abandoned the world (and us). But when all is said and done, God will win, and those on his side will reap the benefits of his mercy.

Professor Bane from Atlanta Christian College put it this way: there are three basic things we should learn from Revelation:
(1) Christ is coming back.
(2) We don't know when.
(3) Be ready.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:46 am 
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Hey, I JUST got finished reading through Revalations yesterday! Interesting...

Well, one thing that I was told concerning Revalations is that you have to remember that the majority of the book is the recording of a dream. I have no doubt that what he wrote is precisely what he saw, one must also take into account the vividness and strange happenings that take place in dreams. This vision that John had is the exact message that God wanted conveyed to him, but anyone can tell you how hard it is to describe perfectly what happened in a dream. I believe that John managed to acheive this, with God's help, but the nuances that come with dreams emerges at times as well, including sudden changes in setting and all that. Yes, that can make things sound confusing at times, but what a better way for God to show the events happening over thousands of years (in one sitting) than in dream format? Sense of the passage of time happens differently when you are asleep, after all.

In short, it seems a bit far-out not only because of the events being described, but also because it was told in a dream, and the readers need to sift through it. Plus, the Holy Spirit reveals to us the right messages that we need to hear from it (the Bible is one of the main ways God speaks to us, after all).

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:51 am 
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Correction: In a Vision. A vision is not the same thing as a dream. C. S. Lewis once said that sometimes people mistake dreams for visions, but no one ever mistakes a vision for a dream.

But it is very heavy with imagery, and sometimes that imagery is difficult to sift through. In fact, that's why I dislike most modern interpreters of Revelation (i.e., Left Behind); they try too hard to apply a literalistic interpretation of those images. That, and they remove the book from its historical context.

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Last edited by Didymus on Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:53 am 
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Well, okay then.

Yeah, I'm not a Revalation scholar, but I try my best. I think though that some of what I said still applies (I'm jsut figuring out which parts) Thanks for pointing that out.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:59 pm 
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Here's one that's been bugging me for a while - concerning the wife of Seth (Adam and Eve's son).

So if Adam and Eve were the only two people created by God, and they only had three sons and no daughters, where did Seth's wife come from?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:06 pm 
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Ancient geneologies frequently included only male family members. My guess is that they had daughters that weren't mentioned in the texts. That's only a guess, though.

Of course, the prospects of marrying one's sister gives us the jibblies today. Or at least shouldArkansas. That's another difficulty.

Another theory is that there were other people besides Adam and Eve, people that did not survive the deluge. But that's not a widely accepted theory by most scholars.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:15 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Of course, the prospects of marrying one's sister gives us the jibblies today. Or at least should Arkansas.


Naughty naughty. ;)

Ahh, one more..... I was reading in the newspaper about the Gnostic scriptures (predictably, it was about Mary Magdelene and her position as a possible apostle, and all that Da Vinci Code lark).

My question is, how reliable are the Gnostic texts, and are they accepted as religious texts? (I know they were considered heretical at one point, but has that changed?)


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What's Her Face wrote:
Here's one that's been bugging me for a while - concerning the wife of Seth (Adam and Eve's son).

So if Adam and Eve were the only two people created by God, and they only had three sons and no daughters, where did Seth's wife come from?


yeah, they had daughters too. Cain and Abel were both born with twin sisters, and either Seth was as well, or he married one of Adam and Eve's other daughters (Abel's widow? i'm just speculating).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Basically, they mention the characters they need for the important parts of the story. They could have had dozens of other sons and daughters before and after Cain, Abel, and Seth, but since they didn't do anything that is important from a doctrinal point of view, they just weren't mentioned in this writing of the story.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:57 pm 
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Yeek. Of course, all of that raises more questions (specifically - how all of Mankind isn't horribly imbred).

But I'd say even if I were a strict Christian or Jew, I'd personally be hard-pressed to believe anything Genesis says, word-for-word.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:59 pm 
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Yeah, one thing to remember is that Adam is recorded as living for more than nine hundred years, which gives him plenty of time to have oodles of children. Be fruitful and multiply was the command, after all.

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Capt. Ido Nos wrote:
Yeah, one thing o remember is that Adam is recorded as living for more than nine hundred years, which gives him plenty of time to have oodles of children. Be fruitful and multiply was the command, after all.

Yes, it was to be fruitful, but one thing that strikes me as odd is that God tells them to be fruitful, yet he tells them not to eat t3h fruit. Fruitful literally means "full of fruit" but that's in direct contradiction with not eating t3h fruit? Meesa confused.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:14 pm 
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When God told them to be fruitful, he meant for them to have children. He wasn't referring to the fruit of the tree. I would have thought that was pretty obvious. Furthermore, they were allowed to eat any fruit but that one. They still could have been Literally "full of fruit" without eating that one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:30 pm 
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Thanks, Didymus. I think I might have been under the influence of drugs when I wrote that post, hence the various Jar-Jar Binks references. But that cleared it up anyway. XD

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:03 am 
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racerx_is_alive wrote:
Basically, they mention the characters they need for the important parts of the story. They could have had dozens of other sons and daughters before and after Cain, Abel, and Seth, but since they didn't do anything that is important from a doctrinal point of view, they just weren't mentioned in this writing of the story.


well, they didn't have any kids before Cain and Abel, and after Abel's murder Adam and Eve separated from each other for 130 years. it was only after they got back together that Seth was born. they likely had other kids after Seth as well, but it's not mentioned because it's through Seth's line that Noah is born, and it's through Noah that the rest of humanity is born, so...yeah, the Bible doesn't waste words.


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well, they didn't have any kids before Cain and Abel, and after Abel's murder Adam and Eve separated from each other for 130 years. it was only after they got back together that Seth was born. they likely had other kids after Seth as well, but it's not mentioned because it's through Seth's line that Noah is born, and it's through Noah that the rest of humanity is born, so...yeah, the Bible doesn't waste words.


What version of the Bible is this is?

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I believe that Cobalt typically uses the Hebrew Tanak. But I could be mistaken.

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In regards to WHF's inbreeding comment, I think the gene pool would have been a lot purer back then, as Adam and Eve carried perfect genetic material. Now, the gene pool is all screwed up with all the years of marrying within one's race (more similar genetic material) and stuff like that.

Hopefully that made sense; it did in my head anyway.

And if anyone's wondering, I do take Genesis literally. 7-day creation and all that. Am I the only one here who does?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:32 pm 
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No, I do to. I was actually wondering the same thing myself. Personally, I think that there's plenty of evidence in favor of a literal Genesis, plus some that can't be answered until later.

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I'd just like to know if this bible phrase actually exists...

Revelation 20:7

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison...

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Yes. As best I can tell, it is referring to a period of intense persecution that takes place near the very end.

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Occasional JD wrote:
I'd just like to know if this bible phrase actually exists...

Revelation 20:7

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison...


Yes, JD, it does say that in the Bible. What's more, though, it is found in a part called "Satan's Doom". In it, Satan is released to wreak havok once again. He begins to, a great battle ensues, but he looses (which shouldn't be much of a surprise, considering the sides are a fallen decayed angel-turned Devil with his demons against an omniscient omnipotent God with legions of archangels) and is then thrown into Hell, where he'll spendthe rest of eternity, never to harm creation again.

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lahimatoa wrote:
Quote:
What version of the Bible is this is?


well, it's part of the Oral Law that was given to Moses at the same time as the Torah on Mount Sinai, but not recorded until a couple of thousand years later when it was at risk of being lost. it's not technically in the Bible, but it's an explanation...i mean, obviously there had to be women or else the species couldn't have survived. there's an oral tradition that explains what's left intentionally ambiguous in the written Bible, so we'll have to ask questions and have discussions about it.


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IantheGecko wrote:
But with Christ, aren't we still imperfect? I know I'm a Christian, but I don't get how the Bible can say that we must be perfect, but also that we basically can't be.


Ok, they already answered this, but I'm going to answer a question most people ask when they hear "God wants you to try to be perfect"

Most people say "if its impossible why even try?" Well, its sorta like a race. Lets say you are doing a time trial on a 500 meter track. You want a low time, right? Well, its humanly impossible to get to the end in no time at all, but its what you want to try for. Nobody drops out of a time trial because they cant finish in no time at all.

I'm supprised this wasnt asked yet.

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I know someone who says that the verse "Love your neighbor as yourself" means that it's OK to be gay, but that just doesn't sound right.

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