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A lot has been said on this forum about faith being the only path to heaven, but if this were true, then here's a scenerio that I'd have a lot of problems understanding....

Say, a baby dies before he's christened. When I was a Catholic, I was taught that this child could enter heaven, but first his soul needs to be purged of original sin. Therefore, he's not eternally punished for something over which he has no control - the fact that he essentially died a heathen. The same goes for older people who die having never heard of Christ.

But if there's no purgatory, and God has a faith-only policy as regards who enters heaven, then that child goes to hell, right?

I have big problems trying to equate a compassionate loving God with a God that would be so unbending as to let a child's soul go to hell.

Therefore, is there anything to be said for purgatory? I hear Luther rejected its existance because of the Catholic Church's sale of indulgances - but the Catholic Church of the time was abusing its position in selling indulgances. It doesn't make the actual concept of purgatory invalid, does it? Or what can be interpreted from the Bible on the issue?

When in doubt, ask Dante

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

Actually I read The Divine Comedy in university. And, well, he does say that new-borns go to purgatory, and good heathens go to limbo. Though I'm not sure it's the best place to start - it's more a work of literature rather than religious theory.

just to give the Jewish perspective here: in Judaism there isn't any hell; there is, however, a concept of something called Gehenna, which is basically the same as purgatory. under normal circumstances, no soul will spend more than 12 months there being purified before they go on to heaven (unless the person's soul is totally corrupt and unsalvageable, in which case after serving their time in Gehenna the soul is simply extinguished completely; but it's said that this hasn't happened to more than a handful of people throughout history -- just going through the process of death itself serves as a kind of partial atonement for sins committed in life).

but then, Judaism has no concept of Original Sin either, so that's not a problem in this case.

as for newborn babies...i'm not sure, but i think they might just get reincarnated. we've got that too.

Just curious, What form of Judiasm do you follow?

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

i'm not exactly sure what you mean by "what form" -- i don't really subscribe to the idea of there being different forms of Judaism, just different levels of observance. but if i had to, i would say i subscribe to Orthodox Judaism; i'm just very bad at it. let's put it this way: i definitely don't do everything that the Torah prescribes that i do, and i do things that it prescribes i don't do. but i don't believe that it's ok. whereas a Conservative or Reform Jew might not keep kosher or might not keep shabbat, they'll say that it's because those things aren't really binding commandments, merely suggestions or something. whereas i believe that the Torah and the commandments were given by God and are incumbent on all Jews, so even when i'm doing something wrong, at least i know that it's wrong so that i can try to do better in the future.

does that make any sense?

Just so you know, Purgatory isn't a solely Catholic belief. Though it's true that Luther rejected it, other Protestant forms of Christianity do believe in a "transitional phase" between death and Heaven. One of the most famous Christians to believe this is C.S. Lewis. To quote him:

"Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would in not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'"


Well, no one really knows, because no one sees what happens to that child's soul. I am optimistic that God would not punish the child for a lack of understanding, though. This is why I have a big problem with doctrine that claims to know 100% what happens to unborn/young children, the retarded, or likewise, because no one can ever know. We just have to know that God is without sin, and whatever He does is right and just, and accept it (and be optimistic that His mercy will allow those who cannot accept into His glory ^^).

As for Purgatory itself, I think there will be a purification process to remove our sin nature before we enter Heaven, but it won't be in a "place"; rather, it will be an instantaneous transformation.

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was the opinions of Nate, and should be taken as his two cents. Actual exchange rate may vary by location, see stores for details, void where prohibited under penalty of torture.

It's not like I can easily give up...the feelings...of needing her. - Sohma Hatsuharu

I do not believe in Purgatory in the traditional Dante sense. I believe that Purgatory are those events and places in life that subject us to deep suffering and hardship, and yet challenge us to grow in our faith. I've been through such a Purgatory in my life. In fact, the past two years of my life have been such a Purgatory.

The idea is that God teaches us obedience through suffering. Even Jesus, the perfect Son of God, learned obedience through what he suffered in life. How much more so for those of us who are still fallen, sinful human beings?

But as far as children who die prematurely. We are not told what, if anything, happens to them. All we can do is trust our God to be merciful and kind to them. As it is, it is only through God's kindness and generosity that any of us can come into his presence anyway; there is no need to assume it would be different for unbaptized children. But since we are not told these things, we cannot know for certain.

But if God does indeed have mercy on those children who die prematurely, must we suppose that he expects them to suffer in Purgatory before they can enter his presence?

I have a cousin who lost her child in a premature birth about a year ago. It is still a very painful experience for her and her family.

But as we approach Reformation Day (the same day as Octoberween), let us remember what our God has done for us, his self-giving sacrifice on the cross.

Oh, and about my Purgatory, don't get the idea I'm being depressive about it. In the end, it was a tremendously liberating experience, and my faith grew tremendously from it. I am, in fact, a much better minister for having endured it than I would have been without it. Despite the hardship and suffering, it was well worth it.

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I believe in Purgatory it gives me false hope that i wont go to hell when I die.

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die spelling nazis!

A baby only has original sin once the umbilical cord is cut (if its still alive during the cutting). I learned that from a priest after my aunts baby died.

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Are you sure about that, DV? I seem to remember a passage of Scripture that says something to the effect that OS begins at conception. As a matter of fact, here it is:

Not that I'm claiming that the Lord didn't have mercy on your aunt's child.

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