Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

"Troll feeding"? I was not aware Funkstar was doing any trolling, but okay, I'll follow the rules.

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Guh. With all this nick-changing I have no idea who anybody is. So Funkstar isn't a troll, but in fact, neither his comment nor yours was very constructive.

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I'd say that it's a possibility (I'll want to read up on Spitzer's work first, though this study looks fairly above board). Though it's worth pointing out some of the previous discussion on the thread, about whether people can consciously choose their orientation or not.

I'd say that it's my opinion that psycological development in early childhood is at least partly responsible, and that your orientation can be assimulated at a sub-conscious level. Clicky - sorry, this website is a subcription service, but the first page is an extract from a book that analises the main theories about sexual orientation and psychological development.

I'm not sure of the "born with it" theories, because they don't seem to have much backing. But even if you're not born with it, and even if your orientation can be changed....... can you consciously choose to be gay? I'd say not in the majority of cases, because of those deep-rooted subconscious factors.

So any genuine change would probably come about through an overhaul of those psychological imperitives - this, I'd imagine, would take years of therapy, and results would vary. And it's worth keeping in mind - why would a person decide to change their orientation through therapy or other method? If the answer is denial or guilt, then that would call into question how genuine the change really is. Movitation is key.

Why do some people think that humans are so weak? Why does everyone apparently need years of intense therapy to change their lifestyle? Thank God we live in a time where shrinks exist. Assuming that you don't think that homosexuality is genetic, it must be a question of upbringing and environment, so why can't a person with enough willpower and hard work change their sexual orietation? Also, they wouldn't be doing it through denial, because to really change you have to admit the situation that you are in to yourself.

By some of your comments you seem to now believe in a two tier systym of homosexuality: "partial" gays who can change themselves and "full" gays who cannot for love nor money become hetrosexual. To me this seems a slightly rediculous way for you to reconcile your opinions - that whilst some homosexuals have changed threir orientation, most cannot change. How can I tell the difference between the two; are the "full" homosexuals cleaner and go to the gym more? Sorry to use crass stereotypes, but my point is that your levels of proof are clearly just as good as mine, leaving the situation down to a difference of opinions.

At least now, can you accept that if a person can change sexual orientation given they have enough desire to see it through, then it is no theological contradiction to have a God who wants people to not be homosexual? Whether you think it is ethical or not is another question.

Not to draw too close a connection, people do say the same thing about drug and alcohol addiction as well. Unfortunately, like with so many other things in life, we are not nearly in control of ourselves as we like to think we are. Regardless of whether it is genetic, behavioral, a combination of the two, gay people still for the most part feel that this is who they are and that they cannot change. While I myself have expressed disapproval of homosexual behavior, I must point out that the process you describe is far more difficult than you seem to recognize.

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Thanks, Didymus, for saying it better than I could have.

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Unfortunately, Racerx, you're quite wrong.

Not only was that a single test ,, presumably, it only captures a certain group of people at a certain point in their lives using guesswork and "taking your word for it" to fill in the 5 year gap, in a time when homosexuality still isn't entirely accepted. Not only that, it's incredibly likely at least half were bisexual, which not everyone recognised.

It's very doubtful their orientation was changed, considering that just about every modern test says otherwise. It's far more likely they caved in to societal pressure, and later either reverted, found they were Bi, or even committed suicide. I severely doubt this test was done properly.

But the ultimate flaw is their initial claim - "Brief Description: Spitzer did telephone interviews of 200 subjects who claim to have changed their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual." So, that would mean that 200 people out of millions, which means they were probably really bisexual anyway and were brutally forced down their path of sexual self discovery.

Now, if you took every "gay" who'd been through ex-gay rubbish, you may get, let's make a guess, around 2-3000. That means that 200 out of that number managed to surpress their "Orientation" for a certain amount of time, and going by these statistics, could well have been bi anyway.

Considering it proof, conclusive or even midly suggestive evidence would be unwise when there are much better studies to go from.

The only reason to believe this study was accurate is if you already have a prejudice that needs defending.

I'm sorry, but despite being conducted recently, the methods are out-dated, and the majrority of attempts to change someone's sexuality have certainly been harmful.

All that it's proving is that it's possibly to damage someone so thoroughly as to confuse their sexuality for a certain amount of time, or that a lot more people are bisexual than we thought(which is very likely).

And you can't truly change someone's orientation anyway, because it doesn't make sense. It makes a mockery of the idea of love and crap on the idea that anyone could ever have a soul mate.

Attempting to change someone's orientation is no better than brain washing or trying to reprogram who they are entirely. Chances are it won't work entirely, but you're messing with something sacred that should never be messed with.

Funny that those who hold the opposite view make this same claim.

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Except they use mangled versions of religious texts rather than the perfectly logical concept of an individual.

It's pretty generally accepted that forcing a change in anyone in anyway is wrong, and forcing them to change their identity is about the worst thing you can do.

Whereas with the "Christian" version of sacred... who is being hurt exactly? God? He doesn't like Gay sex now? I seriously doubt he cares. I think the Christian God probably cares more of the morons(not Mormons, though the transgender friend of mine who is on the street had Mormon parents) making a mockery of what he stands for.

Rosalie, as long as you refuse to see the other side of these issues, you will continue to be bitter. As soon as you allow yourself to try to use empathy and understanding to give creedence to those who oppose your viewpoint you might find yourself much happier and more able to persuade others to understand your viewpoint.

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But what *is* the other side of the issue?

My opinion doesn't hurt people when put in practice, theirs does.

While most things aren't in black and white, and are far from it, I think that's pretty simple logic.

You have to give me something credible before I can "see the other side" of it.

My point is, is that the other side is right infront of you, you have just decided to ignore it. Any attemt I or others have made to explain the other side of this issue (and others on this board) you refuse to give it any credability.

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Well try again. Explain to me, with your next post, the basic outlines of the "Other point of view". And don't wriggle out of it, please.

1. If in themselves a person feels that they cannot change then they wont - it will be impossible.

2. When did I ever say the process wasn't going to be hard? I do believe it depends upon the individual involved; but if one really wants, for relgious or other reasons, to change, why wouldn't they try for as long as it takes?

I personally believe that God by his very nature can do anything. If he sees that you want to change for a good and honest reason, not just because you're homophobic, he will help you and the process will not take forever and it might not require intense psychotherapy.

No, you can't change your orientation. You can attempt to put programmed behaviour that over-rided it, but your actual basic orienatation is hard-coded into your brain.

I don't think you understand how attraction works.

And it's wrong to change what someone likes and doesn't under any non-harmful circumstances.

a) Obviously you understand to the greatest detail how attraction works, both the animalistic and more complex human sides to it.

b) What if they want to change? I'm in no way condoning any attempt to change someone against their will - it wouldn't work anyway.

Remember Anne Heche? She left Ellen deGeneres & married a man.

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I think situations like that are examples of people who mistake liking someone or being attracted to someone for being in love with someone. Plus, people who are married to celebrities are more likely to have married for money.

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You see, Mr. Gecko, there are people that are men and love women, and people that are women and love men, like your mommy and daddy. Sometimes, there are men that love men, and women that love women, but people are afraid of that because it's different, and pull excuses out of their butt to make their lives as miserable as possible.

But sometimes you have peopel that can love men AND women, and are often even more common that people that love just the same sex. Sometimes, people find their attractions lean towards one or the other, but their basic orientation usualy remains the same.

So there you have it.



You have you ask yourself, why would someone WANT to change? What is wrong with liking the same sex that they'd want to change? If they really, genuinely wanted to change, there'd have to be something they already are in love with in the other gender, so they'd already be bisexual and it wouldn't be much effort to "change".

The truth of course is, the only people who'd ever want to change would be because some very evil people pressure them into doing so.

Wow, you just can't see past your own system of beliefs! How about if you're religious and believe that being homosexual isn't what God wants from you. It may be fine for others, but you'd prefer to be hetrosexual. No one is evilly pressurising them, they just feel that they'd be happier in themselves if their body was sending them other signals. How do I know of this situation? I was in it! How do I know that it was my choice and nobody was pressurising me? I didn't tell anyone. See my previous posts.

You want the honest truth. This may sound far fetched for you, but I love God and I believe that God loves me - I belive that he gave the Torah to teach me how I can get the most out of life. If he says I can be most fulfilled as a hetrosexual I trust him, believe him and actually agree with him. I prefer him guiding my morals rather than TV, Hollywood or peer pressure like so many people plump for nowadays, whilst still claiming to be independantly minded.

This is sorta like what Mr KISS meant by confusing love with attraction. Maybe you can't choose whom your'e attracted to, but love is a choice.

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Don't ever say that again. I'm serious. After having dealing with some people which appear very loony indeed in my eyes, I'm one of the least religiously biased people here.



Religious pap, in my opinion. If Religion does that to someone it's not worth their while.



Well, since you're gay, your preference would be to be attracted to males, would it not?

Not all Christians are against homosexuals. There is no reason for a homosexual to be against themselves.

Therefore, what you're saying has no real relevance.



I beg to differ. You're merely claiming that god is saying it so it magically ceases to be evil.



Why? Love shouldn't be about "bodily signals". It should be about love, and you are in favour of demeaning eveything love is about.



What previous posts, and what are you talking about?



But has God ever come down himself and told you that being straight is the only way to be happy? And why is it that gay people are generally only happy being themselves and not forced into some false brainwashed shell?

It doesn't make sense.

Why would someone be most fulfilled as a heterosexual? Wouldn't they be most fulfilled being an individual?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy any of the original arguments. I believe that anything that actually is in the Christian religion about being against homosexuality was later addended by morons who fear anything that's different to them.

I don't like seeing people suffer because of them.



I prefer to live by my own morals which I base off what seems fair and just rather than what some outdated manual does. I guess we differ there. I do not get them from TV, Hollywood, or Peerpressure. I hardly watch TV anymore, I certainly don't learn my morals from "Sin City", and peer pressure doesn't even enter into it.

Though if you believe that you're somehow better guided than people who claim to be independantly minded, you're making a stupid judgement.

Love isn't really a choice. That's another thing, actually. Bisexuals in homosexuals relationships are hardly in much of a different seat to homosexuals.

You could break it off, but it would kill you and serve no purpose.

The whole point of love is that it just... happens. You don't really have a choice in who you fall in love with. Not really.

Yes it is! That's why we have so many divorces. People aren't making the choice to care for each other. They're just going by attraction. 10 years later, they're old and don't care about each other anymore.

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That's someone's feelings rather than choice. That's not quite the same.

Though a lot of it is to do with how much selfish culture is encouraged in the U.S.

I don't really think it's "encouraged", more like it's not "discouraged". Nowdays people are all too preoccupied with Gays marrying and whether MTV should be allowed to play music videos with chicks in Bikinis that no one notices their kids are becoming snobby, spoiled, jerks.

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That's a pretty interesting take on it.

I think people are finally realising that most parents actually kind of suck at it, too.

First you say that you are not religiously biased - then you go on, with this, and I have no hesitation in saying this, uniformed rubbish. By my mention of the Torah you may have guessed that I am in fact not Chrsistian, but Jewish. Read the Torah and you'll find the prohibition of men sleeping with men. The Torah came way before christianity ever existed.

Who's talking about forcing anybody to do anything? If you read my previous post you would have known that I had homosexual feelings for about two years and I didn't act on them - I didn't feel ashamed - I just knew that it was something that I didn't want for myself - eventually the feelings went away.

I bet you're one of these people who think all organised religion is about brainwashing. For weak of mind people it may be, but if you keep asking questions of your religion and it keeps giving you good answers why can't I believe in it? I'm happy in myself now, so rather than calling what makes me feel fulfilled pap why don't you really open your mind up.

Finally, you said:



Define love for me! You've just said love should be about love! [By the way I was never in love with any man, I was simply attracted to them in a base sexual way that humans are inclined to be.] You must be of those Lovarians who think love is the ultimate good (that's a joke). Grow up and don't just dismiss things that you just can't be bothered to get you're head around. Try getting your head around the fact that I love God, who I've never seen or heard, I've just got my religion and that's enough.

Which religion doesn't matter. It's all the same basis. Some idiots came along and said "Hey look! A holy text! Let's perverse it for our own means.



So you "expiremented", and decided against it. Um, I hate to say it, but everyone goes through that in their teenage years, or more often as soon as they go to college. That really isn't anything special. But I don't think it's healthy to surpress any such feelings if they persist.



Open my mind up to what, exactly?



I won't tell you what Love is, but I'll tell you what Love isn't. Love isn't something you can control or just overwrite because it doesn't suit you.

Sunshine of the Spotless mind dealth with happens if you try to "erase" love. And that episode of Star Trek voyager.



You're in no position to tell me to "grow up", at least this time. I have several very "Mature" atheist, or in fact, intelligent christian friends I could set on the board right now that would show you otherwise, but for obvious reasons, I won't.

And your last sentence sort of didn't help your case. I suggest you read it back a few times.

Why do you think im trying to revolt? That is what is going on. People are being corrupted by others and thoose Homosexual type people.Like the old saying "One bad egg spoils the bunch".Because of what happend at the town
of Soddom And Gormorah now gayness are well i dont know JS about why they are gay but i think they just think everything we belive is wrong

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What idiot thought the idea of putting the hole on the BUTT of them?Take a look one day!Notice those holes on top?Well thats where the Salt come out right?Well if you put the opening on butt guess what!When you go to fill them it is is going to spill and make a freaking mess all over myfloor!-Didy