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 Post subject: The Case for a Creator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:33 am 
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[url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310241448/103-0131351-3217401?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance[/url

The Case for a Creator, by Lee Stroble. A really good book. Whether you are a Christian or an Atheist, this is a good book for you. For christians, it will help strengthen your beliefs. For an atheist, it will help strengthen yours as well, by posing questions and doubts to such theories as the Big Bang, Evolution and others.

Post opinions here.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:32 am 
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The Amazon reader reviews are, unsurprisingly, pretty much divided between the same people you describe: the people who already believe in the creator and read this book to reinforce rather than challenge their own beliefs, and the people who read it to see if there's anything to this creation business.

Some highlights:

Quote:
This is not a book of science. Instead, it's one man's quest to find opinions that validate his view of the world. The chapter on Darwin, instead of discussing research that discusses faults in Darwin's theories, Strobel relies solely on interview of one scientist. I'm sure the scientist has valid points, but no book purporting to be about science should spit out the opinions of others in interview form as if they are gospel.

I also found the tone very condescending. Strobel asks a leading question, scientist tells him why his preconceived notions are wrong, Strobel fall all over himself saying what a schmuck was has been for so long for not knowing the truth.


Quote:
I kept looking for the scientific evidence that was promised but it never materialized. No observations other than "Gee, that cell is so complex and beautiful, God must have done that." No data. No theory to explain the data [of course, no data]. No predictions. No testable hypothesis. No anything that looks, feels, sounds or smells like science, at least not science as we know it. Instead there seemed to be a lot of philosophical argument [which would be just fine if the grandiose promises of scientific evidence had not been made]. And a lot of sentences that start "I believe..."


This one's a bit ineloquent, but astute:

Quote:
Why the author implies the intelligent design immediately leads one to the [Christian] church, and not a mosque or a synagogue?


Quote:
I was hoping for some well thought out arguments supporting creationism. Unfortunately, none are to be found in this book. This book is a littany of circular arguments, skewed "logic", giant leaps, false assumptions, and general stupidity. ... They dismiss all the work of Stephen Hawkings in just one paragraph by saying that he used "imaginary" numbers in his work and nothing real could possibly result from that. (For those unfamilar with imaginary numbers, they are a standard tool of math generally taught in high school algebra class.


Quote:
Basically: If science cannot explain something now, if we don't know the answers now, then the only explanation can be God. The same kind of thinking brought us Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, Neptune, etc. That's what mythology does--explain the inexplainable. Don't understand the complexity of planetary movement? Jeez, it must be Helios who carries the sun across the sky! Don't understand the complexity of the double helix? Jeez, it must be an intelligent creator who designs humans! We've known DNA existed for only 50 years...do you think possibly, just possibly, that one day science will know more about it than they do today? Or should we just immediately "cry god" and end of story?

This is the book for you if you like...
-circular logic
-one-sided "evidence" (there is no debate)
-science presented by a biased non-scientist
-short-sighted, shallow thinking
-science by creationist scientists
-ridiculous conclusions

This is disappointing. When I picked up the book, I actually had a little hope that there might be some real evidence. But, nope, fooled again.


*shrug* I'm all for challenging my beliefs, but it doesn't seem like Strobel's the man to do it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:41 am 
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Why don't you try actually reading the book? Personally, I think the book presents some pretty good evidence. So read it, and draw your conclusions yourself.

If its money you're woried about, just grab it at Barnes and Noble and read it over some coffee.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for a Creator
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:51 pm 
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Swooshoman wrote:
[url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310241448/103-0131351-3217401?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance[/url

The Case for a Creator, by Lee Stroble. A really good book. Whether you are a Christian or an Atheist, this is a good book for you. For christians, it will help strengthen your beliefs. For an atheist, it will help strengthen yours as well, by posing questions and doubts to such theories as the Big Bang, Evolution and others.

Post opinions here.


Not to state my opinion on anything, but from the sounds of your statement, the book's got a flaw-disproving evolution doesn't prove any other case. It just disproves evolution. As such, creating doubt of evolution doesn't make a case for ID...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:30 pm 
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Location: AAHHHH!!! NO!! Not that!! Any thing but that!!!
cant there be room for the therory about god creating the big bang?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:03 am 
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Yes, but this book sets out to prove it. Whether or not it does well, I couldn't say. (Nor do I really care; woo agnosticism! ;) )

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:38 pm 
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Upsilon wrote:
Yes, but this book sets out to prove it. Whether or not it does well, I couldn't say. (Nor do I really care; woo agnosticism! ;) )

Perhaps this will reveal how little I know about Agnosticism, but I thought Agnostics didn't know whether or not God exists. It would seem that the Agnostics would care the most whether something proves or disproves the existence of God.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Not really. Think about it, whose belief system would be more shattered if God's existence is proven: a strong atheist, who states that no god exists, or an agnostic, who doesn't make a claim one way or the other?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:47 pm 
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Location: AAHHHH!!! NO!! Not that!! Any thing but that!!!
I'm half athiest and half luthran soo....

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:50 pm 
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It always interests me when people say things like that. Not to sound ignorant, but how can you be both an atheist and a Christian? Don't the two viewpoints fundamentally conflict?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:22 pm 
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Location: AAHHHH!!! NO!! Not that!! Any thing but that!!!
Quote:
fundamentally conflict?

yup all the time they fight, if you havent noticed I kinda have a split personality.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:56 pm 
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But you can't tell me that you believe a) that there isn't a god and b) that there is a god. Not simultaneously, at least. Toastpaint, but still.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:29 pm 
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what part of split personality do you not understand.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:22 am 
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The part where occasional mood swings and a tendency to change your mind can allow you to have two conflicting opinions at the same time.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:20 am 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Quote:
They dismiss all the work of Stephen Hawkings in just one paragraph by saying that he used "imaginary" numbers in his work and nothing real could possibly result from that.


AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Is that for real? Does the book really say something so ridiculous?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:32 pm 
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Quote:
The part where occasional mood swings and a tendency to change your mind can allow you to have two conflicting opinions at the same time.

If You read My past posts You will see alot of that in Me.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:58 pm 
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Let me first state that I haven't read this book, do not intend to, and the only basis I have for any of what I say here is based on people's quotes from Amazon or whatever. So a bunch of "go read the book yourself" comments are unnecessary.

It seems to me that this book makes the same fatal mistake that Pascal's wager makes: assuming that creation is either no-god or Christian God. Obviously, there's more than two possibilities. It's possible that there's some other force behind it that nobody's even conceived yet. I mean, the creation of life, it's a pretty complex ordeal. How are a bunch of mortals such as us to comprehend it? Can the creation ever truly understand the nature of its own creation?

StrongRad wrote:
Perhaps this will reveal how little I know about Agnosticism, but I thought Agnostics didn't know whether or not God exists. It would seem that the Agnostics would care the most whether something proves or disproves the existence of God.


Agnosticism isn't not knowing whether or not a god exists per se, but rather, the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not He/She/It/They exist, the distinction being that not knowing is a case of ignorance, declaring the impossibility to know being Agnosticism. Agnosticism's a little odd to understand if your not one, methinks. Hardcore religious folk tend to group us with Atheists, and Atheists often think we're "undecided."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:38 pm 
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Quote:
Basically: If science cannot explain something now, if we don't know the answers now, then the only explanation can be God.


This quote annoyed me. A lot. How the heck did he come to that conclusion? Just because we don't know something now makes it untrue? We didn't know about cells until sometime 50 or 150 years ago. Does that mean 200 years ago god defenitely created us, because we didn't know what we were made up of? Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:43 am 
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I was hoping for some well thought out arguments supporting creationism. Unfortunately, none are to be found in this book. This book is a littany of circular arguments, skewed "logic", giant leaps, false assumptions, and general stupidity.


You have to remember that a lot of hardboiled atheists react that way. I've seen very few in-your-face atheists who actually respect anything much a theist says.

You will never find a book on theism, no matter how well thought out, that will be acclaimed by atheists as "good attempt".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:40 am 
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Upsilon wrote:
It always interests me when people say things like that. Not to sound ignorant, but how can you be both an atheist and a Christian? Don't the two viewpoints fundamentally conflict?


Weeeeeeellllllllllllll, you can be Atheistic but still be morally and culturally a Christian.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:35 pm 
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This is true. Mind you, I'm sure a lot of Christians would say that the theological aspect is the most crucial part of Christianity.

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