Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Rosalie I am honestly interested to read a response from you on my post by the way.

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I draw. Lots.

I have beliefs, but I can abstract myself from them.

Are you saying that I am not ture in my beliefs?

And starting from a different premise than logic is still insanity.

I dare you all to go to a real debating forum and make the same points didymus has, and see how far it gets you. Unlike flying to the US it's realistic and reasonable to expect.

What I want to know is "Why should we care what people on those boards think?"
Seriously, I don't worship God to make some close-minded crap for brains, who is immediately going to form an opinion of me when they find out I'm Christian, happy.
I do it because it's the right thing for me to do.

I could give two craps about offending anyone.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

How very open-minded of you.

Your views on conservatives gave me a perfect template.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Except I acknowledged not all conservatives were like that, and it was mainly the principle of conservatism in general my gripe was with.

Plus you're "They're going to be against Christians!" just SO obviously reeks of "I'm not going to listen to a majority that disagrees with me".

It's pathetic.

I guess I just learned from the best.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

You're really running out of things to say, aren't you :/

Not really. Just losing my patience with you. You're telling us that, to use our beliefs as foundations for the way we feel about things, we have to justify them, and you challenge our intelligence for believing what we believe.

Nobody, that I know of, is making you justify your beliefs to us. You believe what you believe, and nobody that I know of is calling you stupid for believing what you do.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

well, it kinda seems like you were a few posts back, dude.

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As a theologist(and pagan, but that doesn't come into it here), I believe very strongly that all religion is the pursuit of man for universal truth. I believe that all(or most possible) spiritual paths are important, and true to a given degree. Moreso, my particular strain of beliefs deduces from that that the only true belief is when people pursue truth for themselves, and anyone that interferes with that is spiritually damaging that person, leaving them marred indefinitely.

Therefore, What you're saying is viciously and violently against the foundation of my beliefs. The idea that someone not be able to explore the spiritual world from a reasonably early age is not only offensive, but the manner in which you present it is highly demeaning to my spirituality.

What you're doing is wrong. My beliefs, many of which correlate with material that was indeed written and believed by "greater men" than Didymus, say that what you're doing is terribly wrong.

I haven't mentioned this, though. Because I think it's a pathetic standpoint, when I call someone as doing wrong and they use their beliefs to defend it. To me, it's like raping a child and saying it's okay because god told them to do it.

My religious beliefs don't come into it. Because I know what a spiritual belief is, I can seperate it from my social beliefs. They're really not the same thing. I don't get the "I have a soul, there is a god, therefore..." thing in the manner that Xians use it hugely but that's not what I'm debating here.

I can't say enough that using your beliefs to back your "Opinions" is circular. Your beliefs are something you should discover for yourself. Children are far too impressionable to have all the details of a particuar religion trust upon them at an early age.

If they pick it up like WHF pointed out - then fine. But not if it's forced upon them by denying all alternatives.

There is no reasonable defense for this other than "It's my beliefs", which is the same thing that goes through every suicide bomber's head before they asplode.

What is this great evil I'm doing?

I believe what I believe and do not wish to be called stupid for doing so. That is all I do.

If that's evil, then, I guess I'm evil.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

*I'm invisable*

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I draw. Lots.

Oh quit it with the Funk strawman.

And Jenny, I've had to respond to heck of a lot of crap. It's nearly impossible to get around to every reply an I don't think I'd be anything but frustrated by your reply anyway.

Once again, I ask you. What is the great evil I am committing?

I believe what I believe and do not wish to be called stupid for doing so. I allow others to believe what they believe and do not call them stupid for doing so.

If I'm being compared to child molesters and/or suicide bombers, I must be doing something horrible. I would just like to know what it is.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Stop being prejusticed, Rosalie. Everyone has their own beliefs and are allowed to pass them on to their children.

Think of it this way: If someone is a strong believer in the Christian faith, and believes without a doubt that there is heaven and hell, would he want to take the chance by letting his children decide on their own free will? No. A good parent, who believes in heaven and hell as fact, would want his/her kids to spend eternity in heaven, and not be punished in hell for eternity.

Given the choice, almost all kids and teenagers would go the easy way, the path of lust and pleasure, ignoring the end (hell).

And can you please stop flaunting your beliefs as fact, Rosalie? It's getting annoying how you consider yourself and your beliefs perfect and flawless compared to ours.

(In response to your predictable response, "You should let your kids choose to believe in heaven and hell", no. Good parents who already believe in it strongly will believe that their kids will go to one of the other, whether they believe it or not. So they want to train their kids into making the right decision so they can spend enternity together.)

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I explained what great evil you are committing.

I do not wish to be offended in the manner you have offended my beliefs, but tough, it's probably necessary for the debate. You are the one that is over graspy of your beliefs acting like they should never come into question unless I deliver impossible evidence(which is something some atheists also do that I detest).

I wouldn't say suicide bombers, but it would be more comparable to a weaker version of a child molester as it is scarring that person for life and warping them at a young age. It is not as serious, obviously, since it is the principle rather than the religion that is scarring, but the point is that it's along those lines. I wish you'd pay attention to the context of things I say instead of just picking out things that you can make look offensive and victimise yourself with.



It's prejudiced. And what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be allowed(or rather, just plain shouldn't as policing it would get a little silly) to "Pass on" their beliefs in the way that they do, as it is highly selfish.

And it's "prejudiced", and not only can you not spell it, you don't know what it means.



... but the only way you can be "saved" is to accept it out of your own free will. And again, that's just a stupid excuse.

And this isn't a christian parent in the 1600's. This is a christian parent living in a more modern tolerant age that can see there are other paths out there, whether they agree with them or not.

If what you're saying is to be taken as a valid point(it does excuse the parent's behaviour to an extent, but is still not a reasonable argument against the general statement that forcing beliefs on your kids is wrong), then action must be taken against Christianity being taught in this way rather than the parents themselves.

There really comes a time when you have to step in to prevent damage being done.

And don't give me that "But we're all so perfect!!!1" rubbish. If a particular way a particular religion is taught is harmful, something should be done. That does not mean your beliefs are evil or invalid, but the way in which you pass a particular type of belief is on, is.

But heck, if there is a fault with christianity itsself abstract from being "taught", I won't hesitiate to point it out. I don't see why it's such a big deal since so many of your crowd insist on finding flaws with homosexuals and other minorities that don't exist.

Anyway, it's harmful. If the parents feel their kids are going to hell they should have to live with it, as horrible as it is. It might actually force THEM to think about their beliefs once in a while. It would help tolerance no end.

As long as they're sheltered, this will continue.

I lived through a Catholic upbringing, not from my parents, but my school as it was the only one in the area. I have some idea what I'm talking about. You have none.



But you can't force someone to be good. It doesn't make sense. Do you think when your kids die, God says "Oh well, your parents made you believe in me, in you go!".

I'm sorry, but the particular belief about Hell should come into question before forcing your beliefs does. It seems to me that the use of Hell in general is a painfully obvious way of forcing your belief on someone.



Then let them. It's their choice, after all. And I think "path of pleasure" says a lot about how much you care for your children's happiness.



Hahaha, that's a HUGE joke considering Didymus STATES his are fact.



Stop playing the victim.



So you deny them choice, therefore you force things on them. Therefore, you are doing something wrong.

Even God doesn't deny them free will. So why should you?

Because they're your property and you're a potentially abusive parent, is the only apparent reason.



And of course, the kids' beliefs don't even come into this.

Personally, I really am getting tired of the "HELL" argument. I thought if someone lead a decent life, that was the same as "accepting" God into your life.

Otherwise we get the jews going to hell/Hitler going to heaven scenario.

So good people burn in hell and bad people can get into heaven? Is this what you truly believe? A lifetime of greed and selfishness matters nothing if you claim to accept God? A lifetime of kindness and charity sends you to hell if you chose to believe in another God?

Sounds to me like God is one huge bully. Since you've INSISTED on shoving the content of beliefs into this argument, you've opened them up to come under fire.

And your points are still all common logical fallacies. The only person to put up any kind of points that can be considered valid(though not necessarily true) was What's her face, I suggest you read back on some of the points she made as they had some kind of real world base, even if some were toeing the LF line.

Your main arguement here is about "forcing" your kids into different mindsets. But kids are their parents responsibility.

Is it wrong for a parent to desire their children to not grow up to be terrorist or gangster? (extreme examples) Some parents wish their kids to live life to its fullest. Parents are normally smarter than kids when it comes to decisions about marriage and morals. The kids think they know everything and that their parents are wrong, but good parental guidence is an important part of a healthy society that is disappearing because of people like you. As parental guidence is falling, gangs and mobs and stuff like that are rising.

And you say that parents shouldn't be forcing their beliefs on their kids, but the fact is is that if they don't, the rest of world will. Public schools across America constantly force unproven theories such as evolution into kids minds, teaching it as proven fact and giving them no alternative to think about. If schools can force unproven knowledge into the children, shouldn't parents be able to as well? Whose care is it best to leave a child in? The government or the parent? Either one will force. It's the way it is.

Even if you drop a young kid on a deserted island, should he survive, the jungle will force its ways onto him and he will grow into an animal-like being, behaving just like the jungle animals to survive.

Kids are going to have many ideas forced onto them. I have Christian parents who have raised me, yet I have many other ideas to choose from and know about. I am exposed to them every time I leave my house or go online. I am not a slave to my parents, I am choosing my path now.

Just as you have chosen yours.

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The word you are apparently looking for is "property".

Responsibility is another thing entirely. That means that it's your responsibility to raise them as best you can, which forcing your beliefs on them goes against, as that's raising them best how you would like them, and is irrepsonsible.



What, so if you don't bring your kids up as a Christian, they'll grow up to be terrorist or gansters!?(in extreme cases).

Wow. I had no idea that Christianity had the inbuilt ability over any other religion on the face of the planet to prevent that.

I don't mind extreme examples in cases where it's an acceptable though unlikely possibility(as the one I made in the Death Row topic) if they're along the same lines.

Those examples are not along the same lines and are extremely offensive to non-christians.

Teaching them to be good people and teaching them to be Christian are two different things, but you can't really "teach" someone to be good, either way.

How kids turn out is down to a number of factors and the best thing to do is just be as respectful of them as possible without spoiling them too much.

I have no problem with parents pointing out the obvious rights and wrongs, and it would be insane not to. But forcing an ENTIRE RELIGION on them from an early age(though a simplified version, it st

Not only that, if you teach them moral values only matter because "God" says they're wrong, if they turn out to be atheist, then they may no longer have reason to uphold those moral values.

If you taught them right and wrong abstract from religion, that would cover them in all cases. But you refuse to becuase you're so damn possessive of your religion.



No, the "some" in this case wish their kids to be moulded to match themselves.

Truth and lies are different.



Hold on - marriage? I hope you're not implying it's a good idea for parents to teach their kids that gay marriage is bad.

That IS plain out instilled discrimination and I WILL have your arse on a plate for it.



As opposed to the parents thinking they know everything and acting acting on that thought in a forecful manner.

Wisdom comes with age, but so unfortunately does arrogance.



Because of people like me? Excuse me? Go shove your 1920s fundie conservatism up your arse.

I'm sorry, no doubt you'll jump on me, but if you dare compare blaming society's problems on someone to telling them to shove, you can shove it, too.

It was much better back then when you could be racist and there was no such thing as gay people, eh? Because we all know there was no crime back then and everything was perfect.



What this has to do with forcing religion is absolutely beyond me. As I pointed out earlier, if morals were taught on an unbalanced platform and not attirubuted to a God, there is absolutely no logical reason why this would not be more effective if they decide to reject christianity or whatever else they were taught.



Well, you know what they say, if you're successfully brainwashed, you should never know that you were brainwashed.

But, on a more serious note, for every Joshua there is, there's at least two of my friend whose parents still force him to go to church when he comes home from college.

I'm sorry I've offended your beliefs by asking you to not call Christians stupid.
I'm sorry I've committed the terrible offense of saying that people have a right to believe what they believe, even thought I might not agree with it. I'm sorry I do not feel it is right for ME to push my beliefs on others. My bad.

The comparison to a child molester is completely and totally unwarranted.
It just shows how far you'll go to try to discredit those who do not believe what you believe.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Alright, I'm done here.

I'm tired of fighting over and over in circles. Neither side is going anywhere.

I still greatly disagree with Rosalie's beliefs. But it is not really my place to argue with these things, it is not my expertise. (Although I would suggest to her to study Creationism more deeply, there's more evidence supporting it than you'd think.)

For now, I'll just watch.

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Strawman.



What the hell are you talking about? "Raising" your kids into religion treated as fact is pushing your belief on others. You support that, and would engage in that behaviour yourself. You have no right to say that,



As is Joshua's comment that I'm the source of all the world's problems, but you didn't seem to care much about that.
That comparison made some level of sense, regardless, whether or not you want to accept it. The point of reduced comparisons is that you're not calling them that, merely outlining that they share much of the same negative traits as that type of person.



Oh for Funk sake stop it with the strawman. You know damn well what I'm arguing about.

I've never said anything about raising my kids in any religion. If Didymus wants to, that's his business, not mine.

If you were truly against pushing beliefs on others, you would start by not trying to push YOUR beliefs on others.

I didn't say anything about Joshua's post, because, frankly, I think you're a big girl and you handled it on your own.

All I ask is that you respect other peoples' rights to their own beliefs, even if you think they're wrong.

I think you're completely full of crap, but, you know what? That's your right, and I respect that. I don't call you stupid for it.

Either way, you know what, I'm done with you. If you get so upset about the attitude of the people here, maybe you should find a place where people have an attitude that you do agree with.

Oh yeah. Learn what a "straw man" is before you go around using it. You just sound like a moron.
I've never set up some sort of fictional "enemy" and attacked it.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Old-ish post, but if someone doesn't address it soon I think Jenny may explode.



I strongly contest that point. The world does operate on logic. Everything that happens, happens for a reason. If the world didn't operate on logic, there's no way I'd be typing this right now. I wouldn't even be able to type a coherent sentence (no smart comments please ).

'Logic' is often used as a derogatory term for cold, harsh, emotionless thinking. That's not what it is. It is, simply, effect following cause.



Once again, you speak of 'morals' and 'logic' as if the two are unrelated. If we cannot found morality on logic, then on what?



If you want to keep things simple, then I would suggest that you don't introduce them to the concept of a being who is unseen, yet everywhere, and inactive, yet all-powerful. If you want to keep things simple, why introduce them to religion at all?

Incidentally, just so it's clear, I am not advocating bringing a child up to be an atheist; that would be just as bad as bringing them up to be religious. What I'm proposing is not teaching them to be either. It seems fairly reasonable to me.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Then why are you arguing in a topic that's completely about that now?



Nobody has demonstrated how I am pushing my beliefs on others. The only things I've pushed on other people were basic logical principles, which I invited everyone to see.



But this isn't about belief. It's about action. There's a difference.



I don't care. You're not a very intelligent person.



Or is able to defend it's points properly.



I know what a Strawman fallacy is, since I have half these definitions open when I argue.

You're taking the definition far too literally(which I couldn't really not expect, I suppose). Using a strawman is when someone attacks you for something, then you create a response on them attacking something else.

I criticised the use of these beliefs, and then you acted like I was attacking the people for holding these beliefs.

That is use of a strawman.

So quite frankly, you sound like a moron now.

Ok guys. I know this is the R&P section, and we usually a little more tolerant when it comes to "stating your opinions", but keep the flaming down to a minimum... K???

Don't make me break out my locking stick

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Well, let's see. I have two Bachelor of Science Degrees (one in Mathematics, and one in Geography), and Associate of Science in Meteorological Technology, and a research assistantship from NASA's Earth Science System Center paying for my school while I get my MS in Atrmospheric Sciences.

Checks around, NOPE. not intelligent at all.

But, like I said, I'm done.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

You should have been done the post before.

This thread is over

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