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What is your input on the situation in Tibet?

It's sad when the Dalai Lama can't even set foot in his own country for fear of being shot.

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Finally, some one who knows the situation.

I believe that both Tibet and Taiwan should be recognized as independent countries from China. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen any time soon. It's a shame.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

I agree man. It's too bad there aren't alot of people involved in the Free Tibet campaign.

Here's a web site of one of my favorite VSTi plugins for Fruity Loops. These guys created a virtual singing monk, and all the proceeds from their product go to support Free Tibet.

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Looks cool, I stand corrected. Well, I'm gld there are more people than I thought.

Same here, I thought trying to free tibet went out with the ninties. It irritates me when people take up views just because they're "cool".

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well thats how views are in this country. in the next few years, we wont be following the "Get the homosexuals out of the church" trend, we will be following the "Burn the Witches" Campaign. as for tibet, i dont really care, its a province of China now, so let it be.

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Truthfully, while I don't agree with what the Chinese are doing with Tibet, I think the US needs to stay out of it altogether. We already have our "tell people in another country how they need to handle their internal affairs" hole punched on our foreign relations card.

World's largest standing army + nuclear weapons = sit this one out.

I'm not saying we should bully the countries that are weaker than us, just that we should leave those who can kick our butt alone.

Personally, I say we let China deal with Kim Jong Il, and they're not gonna side with us if we're all "you should let Tibet be free",etc

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Well, the reason meddling in the affairs of Iraq was such a blow to the worlds view of the states, is that George was never consistent with his reasons for going to war (and other crap, but you know). I don;t think it'd be bad for The US to go and help out Tibet, but it would need both assistance from other western countries and approval from alot of other countries. Plus, they would need to lay out a plan, and stick to it.

On a related note, I don't think that war would be the way to go about it, that just seemed to be the topic at hand.

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The reason why people in this country should get invovled in forieghn afairs that involve human rights vialations is because we have a voice that not too many people in those countries have. Just sitting on our asses won't solve anything.

*clears throat* We kinda just did that in Iraq ...

And although it was mainly to get Bin Laden, we indirectly did the same with Afghanistan ...

But we can't just roll the tanks on Bejing. As has been said, they are an emergent superpower of their own, with a nuclear arsenal. This is why U.S. diplomats have not tried to twist China's arm on the matter. Currently, nuclear deterrence technology is not reliable enough to stop China should they fire nukes at someone--us, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, any allied nation--and thus any violence that breaks out ... it will be bloody and tragic.

As I understand it, people in China fervently believe that Taiwan is and should be a part of the PRC, while Taiwan's people think the opposite. That's another issue--the people of China back their leadership on the stance.

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The people in the PRC believe that these regions are part of china because china is comunist! A comunist governmant imposes what it wants on it's people. I don't expect the chinese will stop until the U.N. declairs this situation a genocide.

I'd have posted sooner, but didn't see the thread.

I'm definitely in favor of Tibet. Then again, it's easy to oppose virtually anything Communist China stands for. I can't think of one thing about them that I like.

- Kef

There is no such thing as a communist goverment. That's a contradiction of terms. Your logic doesn't really seem to keep much merit either. Let's examine your argument.

You assert that communism is the cause for Tibet conquest. Fair enough, I can see how international worker's revolution can be exploited by PRC oligarchs for territorial gains. However, you just back that up with total non sequitor. As stated earlier, communist governments cannot exist. Communism is a stateless democratic system; authoritarianism would oppose against everything for which a radical stands. She fights for the end of classist society. Top-down authoritative systems don't fit in that kind of worldview.

Not any more than "democratic government" is.



No he didn't.

It sounds like he did, at least the way I read it.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

I interpreted that to mean that the people will believe whatever China says because it is communist, not that communism itself had anything to do with Tibet. And, moreover, that "communist" in this context implies oppressive (while communism is not inherently oppressive, the way the Soviets applied it is).

Maybe my interpretation's wrong, I dunno.

- Kef

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.

i agree.

also: the Dalai Lama > Gandhi in my opinion.

I suggest watching the "Holier Than Thou" episode of Penn and Teller: Bullsh*t"
There is an interview with author Michael Parenti http://www.michaelparenti.org/ in which he says the following:

"This idea that he is a humble, spiritual man with just a robe and a bowl and a prayer bead isn't really what the Dalai Lama's all about . . . He headed a social system that was exploitative, terribly unequal, and terribly brutal. . . You had a priviliged priest-class living in utter luxery and opulence and you had a mass of serfs living in utter misery."

The narration (by Penn Jillette) goes on to tell of torture and mutilation as crime punishment in Tibet, "including eye-gouging, the pulling out of tongues, and even disembowling were reportedly common punishments"

More of Jillette's narration: "Since Mr. Lama's been run out of Tibet, the Chinese have introduced secular education, running water, and electricity." The Dalai Lama's rule may bring a return of "his people living in squalor, and his government condoning slavery."

I'm not sure the factuality of everything what was shown in "Bullsh*t," or the particular biases of Michael Parenti, but I thought it would be good to give another perspective on the whole thing. . .

Here is more by MIchael Parenti on Tibet:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

"One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: "Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished." They "were just slaves without rights." Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a "liberation." He claimed that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord's men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain"

And to parallel Penn's narration above:

"In the Dalai Lama's Tibet, torture and mutilation---including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation--were favored punishments inflicted upon runaway serfs and thieves. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: "When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion." Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die. "The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking," concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet."

Are we still sure we should put Tibet back on the map and the Dalai Lama back in power?

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Listen to the Black Crowes.

Well... that's certainly a side of things we usually don't hear about. I think it's doubtful that Tibet would be that way if China gave it back, though, but I think it should be known that Tibet wasn't what it's often claimed to have been.

- Kef

That is assuming that Michael Parenti is right.

If he is, then I find it funny that a lot of those who are all "FREE TIBET!" seem to be in favore of things that they are against. Hmm..

Personally, I don't take a side. I don't know enough about the situation (and I'm kinda too busy to really worry about it). I usually respond to "Free Tibet!" with "Whoa! Where'd you find a free one? I had to pay $20 for mine."

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Even if he's wrong, though, that doesn't mean Tibet was like how people imagine it was. My first inclination is that there is some truth to what he says, although diving into the issue would require much more than just that source.

- Kef

I suppose I would have to rid myself of the stereotype I have of Buddhists being very laid back and peaceful to believe Parenti. At any rate, as is the case with almost every issue, when there are two VERY opposing viewpoints, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

That's one reason I brought up the issue in the first place. Personally, I don't know who to believe regarding this issue, and far more research on my part is necessary before I can decide what I think of it all.

The other reason I brought that up was for COBALT who said "Dalai Lama > Gandhi in my opinion." without any sort of reason for such an opinion.

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Listen to the Black Crowes.

Discuss.

Could you possibly get the ball rolling?

I personally think the reason you make a thread should be becasue you have soemthing to say on the subject. if you don't, someone else will eventually make it if they care to voice their opinions.

Tibet was invaded 50 years ago.It was the a horrible occupation and Tibetans have been treated horribly.Torture is daily.
The world is silent when a great Nation needs us.
The west needs to take an active role in overthrowing the Chinese Government.Force if necesssary.This has gone too far.Too many have died.China's a threat and a harsh dictatorship.Eliminate them.Take out there government.Give it back to Democracy.
Tibet is beautiful and peaceful and we need to recognize them.
FREE TIBET!SAY NO TO CHINA!