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Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Happy Holiday!

hey, what about the people who are saying "ugh, you cant say Christmas anymore or ill sue you for forcing your religion onto me!"? theese people are making a big deal out of nothing. well, what do you guys think?

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Happy Holiday!

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
hey, what about the people who are saying "ugh, you cant say Christmas anymore or ill sue you for forcing your religion onto me!"?


Um. FYI, nobody's saying that.

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:00 am ]
Post subject: 

nobody is saying that here, but some people accross the country are Saying that they dont want MEdia, or anything Saying Merry Christmas because its against their religion, or they just dont celebrate it.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:05 am ]
Post subject: 

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
nobody is saying that here, but some people accross the country are Saying that they dont want MEdia, or anything Saying Merry Christmas because its against their religion, or they just dont celebrate it.


Like whom? Can you cite a single actual example?

All I hear is blowhard pundits screaming about how liberals and Jews (their words, not mine) are out to destroy Christmas. I have yet to see any one of them present any evidence of any such thing actually happening in any but the most isolated, laughably trivial forms. OMG they called it a holiday tree! Call the church police!

In fact, nevermind all that. Just read this. Extreme language warning and so on.

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:14 am ]
Post subject: 

i read that, and wow.
thats not for the..er....Children.


well, i found this on google, Here is the Article

Author:  Stu [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:28 am ]
Post subject: 

How about these guys?
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... /MERRY.TMP

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:33 am ]
Post subject: 

Stu wrote:


Gah! Falwell! *hides*

Media Matters is all over the "War on Christmas." Check out all these articles. I wish I had Bill O'Reilly's job--I could make stuff up all day and call it journalism.

Yay Jon Stewart!

Also, enjoy Mr. Sun's War on Christmas Dispatches.

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:49 am ]
Post subject: 

wow, people are making a big deal outta this. the fact is that we are living in a verry liberal society, you cant say "merry Christmas" or you cant say something bad about anyones religion. we are also living in a society that lives on Junk Lawsuits. you get a paper cut in a starbucks, you get $25,000. thats all besides the point, the point is that we shouldnt be afriad to say something like Merry Christmas, something thats remotley racist,(Such as those Girls Who Boycotted those Ambercrombie And Fitch Clothes), without the Fear of Lawsuits.

Author:  StrongRad [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:54 am ]
Post subject: 

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
wow, people are making a big deal outta this. the fact is that we are living in a verry liberal society, you cant say "merry Christmas" or you cant say something bad about anyones religion. we are also living in a society that lives on Junk Lawsuits. you get a paper cut in a starbucks, you get $25,000. thats all besides the point, the point is that we shouldnt be afriad to say something like Merry Christmas, something thats remotley racist,(Such as those Girls Who Boycotted those Ambercrombie And Fitch Clothes), without the Fear of Lawsuits.

COLA, you're confusing liberals with stupid people who sue for any reason on earth..

Personally, I usually say "Merry Christmas"...

Anyone who believes Christmas is a "religious" day is full of crap. There's nothing religious about it (anymore)...

I think it's REALLY funny that that Donahue dude is so mad about the White House Christmas Card..

That Bill O'Reilly stuff is funny. He's our version of Michael Moore.. When are we gonna lock those two on a Saturn V and place them on a trajectory intersecting a solar flare?

I do give a "Happy Holidays" if I'm not gonna see someone before New Years, since, I'm lazy and don't want to say "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Years", but that's just me. I'm weird like that, I guess.

When we were in line to see RENT (the night before Thanksgiving), I heard the lady in front of us tell someone "Merry Thanksgiving" before she hung up her phone.. Blew my mind.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:03 am ]
Post subject: 

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
the fact is that we are living in a verry liberal society


Hahahahahahahahahahaha...

Quote:
you cant say "merry Christmas"


..hahahahahahaha.

Okay, I'm done now.

Quote:
the point is that we shouldnt be afriad to say something like Merry Christmas


This is the only part of your post with any truth to it. Indeed, you shouldn't be afraid to say Merry Christmas, because nobody is going to sue you (and to my knowledge nobody has ever sued another individual for uttering those words) and nobody whose opinion you should bother with is going to get offended. If you're actually afraid of telling people Merry Christmas, then the problem is with you, not anybody else, 'cause you're delusional.

Let's just get this out there: There is no War on Christmas. It is a fairy tale, just like the omitted, just like Saddam's WMDs and his involvement with 9/11, just like the so-called liberal media. And the same people who are trying to get you to believe in the latter three are the same people who want you to believe in their mythical War on Christmas.

Now then, I'd like to add to my admittedly-hasty first post by saying that I believe there's a difference between being blindly and stupidly politically correct (which O'Reilly et al are accusing everyone else of) and actually upholding the constitution of this country. I don't give a nit what signs Wal-Mart or the corner store put up, and if I do I can vote with my wallet and so can everyone else. But I do have a vested interest in what the government spends my ample tax dollars on (you don't know taxes until you're self-employed, let me tell you that), and if I can choose between spending them on rituals and accoutrements widely identified as Christian or letting the non-Christian kids in my neighborhood feel a little bit more like they belong in my community, I'll skip the festivies every time. That said, most of the afforementioned rituals and accoutrements are about as Christian as a Yule log, so I have a hard time getting worked up about anything unless it actually has a cross or the word "Christ(mas)" in it.

Think of the children IJ :)

Author:  Mistle Rose [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:04 am ]
Post subject: 

I'm not offended by Christmas. Honestly. It's just a name for a pretty globally celebrated winter festival of things.

Christmas has very little to do with Christianity, really.

Author:  StrongRad [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:09 am ]
Post subject: 

Mistle Rose wrote:
I'm not offended by Christmas. Honestly. It's just a name for a pretty globally celebrated winter festival of things.

Christmas has very little to do with Christianity, really.


Exactly!

Personally, I would like to see it more "Christiany" but, hey, it ain't gonna happen. I keep it Christian for ME, what everyone else does is their business.

I've always thought that, if people were so offended by it, the malls would be pretty empty day after Thanksgiving.

Author:  Mr.KISS [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:33 am ]
Post subject: 

What really bugs me in matters like this, is that the few people who are offended by these things, will have no problem seeing something like "Happy Quanza!" They'll just say something like "Oh, that's refreshing!"

But, honestly, we live in a more intelligent world then most news would lead us to believe.

Author:  Cobalt [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:50 am ]
Post subject: 

personally, if someone wishes me a "merry christmas," i wish them a "happy chanukkah" right back. if they want me to enjoy a holiday that i don't celebrate, then i'll return the favour. but i don't get offended.

Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:32 am ]
Post subject: 

I don't find it offensive personally. I just think it is appropriate to acknowledge the fact that Christmas is not the only holiday celebrated during this time of year. If I were Jewish, I wouldn't want someone saying Merry Christmas to me.

As far as Christians saying that people are trying to destroy christmas...well, they're full of it. Just because people of other faiths want equal time does not mean they are trying to destroy chrsitmas.

I say...just call it Decemberween and be through with it...

Author:  Trev-MUN [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:16 am ]
Post subject: 

This whole episode makes me want to bash my head into a brick wall for the rest of the year without stopping.

Here's how I see it. *pulls out his big bold marker pens again!* I'm going to talk to myself for a bit, you're free to listen.

DECEMBER IS LADEN WITH RELIGIOUS AND NONRELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS! Let's take a look at just some of what's celebrated in December.

Christmas (Roman Catholicism/Protestantism/Anglicanism):
Christianity for most divisions is celebrated on the 25/24/26th (see below). The Orthodox churches disagree with this and celebrate it in spring, January 6 or 7th I think.

I should note that this is not the only Christian holiday/festival celebrated in December. Advent, the four-week season of pentinence leading up to Christmas, quite a few saints, Holy Innocent's Day, and the Feast of the Circumcision are all celebrated sometime in December.

(Unless, again, you're Orthodox, which you'd celebrate Advent later.)

Yule/Yalda/Karachun (Astratu, some/most sects of neopaganism):
Various pagan/shamanistic religions have or had holidays on that date, too. Yule is probably the most recognizable and is officially celebrated by followers of Asratu (Norse/Germanic paganism).

Kwanzaa:
Kwanzaa is a week-long holiday observance held from December 26 to January 1 honoring African-American heritage, primarily in the United States. Straight from Wilkipedia so I don't mess things up. The holiday isn't religious but faith is a part of what's celebrated. So I dunno.

The Extreme of Winter (Dhong Zhi):
Traditional Chinese festival celebrated around December 22nd. I'm not sure if it has a reigious significance, but it does seem to be related somehow. Descriptions I've read tie the holiday into concepts like the Yin and Yang.

Hanukkah:
Even though Judaism has its own calander, the holiday period is always celebrated sometime in December in the Gregorian one. Sometimes it starts in late November, though.

There's a few more I'm not thinking of too--aside from the birthdays of famous people like Sir Issac Newton, who was born on the 25th (I think?).

Boxing Day:
We Americans don't hear about this Canadian holiday that much, but if you ever sneak across the border on the 26th you'll see that the entire nation has gone mad and is re-enacting the Mike Tyson vs. Evander Holyfield match, punching and biting eachother's ears off.

... Wait, no. Seriously, it's a somewhat Commonwealth/European holiday that is also known as St. Stephen's Day or the Second Day of Christmas. Here in the U.S. we celebrate on the 24th and 25th.

(I sincerely apologize if I offended anybody with that joke.)

WOW, THAT'S A LOT OF HOLIDAYS. BUT WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU PLAYING AT, TREV-MUN?

*ahem*


At first glance, you mght think I'm about to say we should say 'Happy Holidays!' during the season, right?

Well, no. Why's that?

"Happy holidays" would be more applicable if the mass of other holiays during this month were recognized by the department store chains and whatever else. However, when you go into a place like, say, Wal-Mart, it's overwhelmingly celebratory of Christmas.

Heck, I don't think that even the other Christian holidays are given any notice.

So my bottom line is, "a horse is a horse is a horse." Until other holidays are significantly recognied, there's really no point in saying "Happy Holidays!" when all you're selling is CHRISTMAS RELATED STUFF.

If you don't want people saying "Merry Christmas" to you in department stores, then maaaaybe you should think about petitioning to have the holidays you celebrate represented more, eh?

BUT TREV-MUN, CHRISTMAS HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY! IT'S JUST A NAME FOR THE WINTER SOLSTICE!

You will note that I have now locked Mistle Rose in the chumble fuzz room for that comment. She can come out when she's learned her lesson.

Why would I do that to her? Because it most certainly DOES mean something to Christians, y'know, since it celebrates the one man that the freakin' religion is central to. Furthermore, since Christmas is celebrated by Orthodox Christians in January (on the 6th I believe) ... and since the date is NOT tied to the Winter Solstice, which is painfully apparent this year since the Solstice is on the 21st, the comment is mostly ignorant and mildly offensive of her to make.

Let's take a more realistic approach to that. The Winter Solstice is rarely the date of a few religious/nonreligious holidays and whatnot that occur on the 24th/25th. As I pointed out, it's mostly Christian (Catholic/Protestant/Lutheran/Anglican) and neopagan (Asratu/etc), if they don't celebrate Yule on the exact date of the Winter Solstice.

Christmas itself has become so commercialized that yes, it has developed secular traditions that are more widely recognized and celebratable by non-Christians. (I am speaking solely of Christmas here, not the other holidays that share in the same dates) However, it still has a HUGE religious significance for Christians themselves.

SO HERE'S THE MAJOR POINTS IN SUMMARY!
  • There are indeed many holidays in December, but only one is given any significance by the markets.
  • Christmas very much has a significance for Christians.
  • It is not a metaphor for the Winter Solstice, but for the birth of Jesus Christ.
  • It is not typically celebrated on the Winter Solstice, and in fact is not tacked to it at all, but remains on the 25/24th of December, or the 6th/7th of January (or so).
  • Unlike other Christian and non-Christian holidays, it pretty much dominates department stores at this time of year.
  • Until other holidays get more recognition by department stores, they should call it for what it is: "Merry Christmas."


Thank you and good morning!

Author:  Shopiom [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

InterruptorJones wrote:


Whoa. All that cussing's gonna give me nightmares.

Author:  Mr.KISS [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:12 pm ]
Post subject: 

Did anyone see The Colbert Report last night? I learned the Holiday actually mean Holy Day. This makes me think that the people who have a thing about saying it (for reasons other then they just like to) aren't only freaks, but idiots.

Author:  Mistle Rose [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

KISS-Cringle 66 wrote:
What really bugs me in matters like this, is that the few people who are offended by these things, will have no problem seeing something like "Happy Quanza!" They'll just say something like "Oh, that's refreshing!"

But, honestly, we live in a more intelligent world then most news would lead us to believe.


To be fair, Kwanza isn't really a religion based thing and it's as if black people have a history of proselytizing their blackness on other people.

Author:  Didymus [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

I don't quite understand what you mean by that last statement. "Proselytizing their blackness on other people?" That would be interesting to see.

Quote:
It is not typically celebrated on the Winter Solstice, and in fact is not tacked to it at all, but remains on the 25/24th of December, or the 6th/7th of January (or so).

January 6 is officially called Epiphany, and supposedly celebrates the Wise Men presenting their gifts to Jesus (thus the presents typically associated with Christmas). Contrary to the common understanding, the Wise Men didn't show up when Jesus was born, but almost two years later.

Author:  Rogue Leader [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

Before I went to this thread, I liked (or could somewhat tolerate) Bill O'Reilly. Now, Interupter Johns shown me the light! Christmas isn't really that religous anymore. I basically substitute it in my mind for the words holiday season. I don't care if someone says merry Christmas to me. I don't even think many of the winter holidays are even that significant in religions. I know Hannukah isn't, at least. Seriously, there isn't a War on Christmas. Just Bill O'reilly thinks that. From now on, I am sticking with Keith Olberman!

Author:  lahimatoa [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm with you, Rogue Santa. Interruptor Jones is the source of all that is truth and light and if he says something, it's true. Bill O'Reilly really DOES just make up everything he says on the radio and TV. There isn't anyone, anywhere who is against Christmas being celebrated. And Michael Moore is a credible film maker, and anyone who disagrees is just a radical right-winger who will eventually destroy the country.









Oh, and I just needed to say that I thought IJ was bad a few months ago when I first joined the board. I didn't think it was possible, but he gotten worse.

Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

lahimatoa wrote:
I'm with you, Rogue Santa. Interruptor Jones is the source of all that is truth and light and if he says something, it's true. Bill O'Reilly really DOES just make up everything he says on the radio and TV. There isn't anyone, anywhere who is against Christmas being celebrated. And Michael Moore is a credible film maker, and anyone who disagrees is just a radical right-winger who will eventually destroy the country.


Heh. Glad we can all agree on something. :mrgreen:

Now if only we could, y'know, stay on topic.

Presto toast painto.

Author:  Rogue Leader [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

lahimatoa wrote:
I'm with you, Rogue Santa. Interruptor Jones is the source of all that is truth and light and if he says something, it's true. Bill O'Reilly really DOES just make up everything he says on the radio and TV. There isn't anyone, anywhere who is against Christmas being celebrated. And Michael Moore is a credible film maker, and anyone who disagrees is just a radical right-winger who will eventually destroy the country.









Oh, and I just needed to say that I thought IJ was bad a few months ago when I first joined the board. I didn't think it was possible, but he gotten worse.


Uh, I can't tell what you meant by that, if you are sarcastic or not. So, the reason why I hate O'Reilly know is that I followed his link and I saw some... I will say some less than kind words he said about Jews. But I despise Michael Moore. Last O'Reilly comment from me.

Toast Paint.

Author:  Didymus [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

*Hits IJ with Folding Chair of Thwacky +3 just to prove to the forum members he's still mortal*

There is a War on Christmas. Why, I just saw it first hand myself! There was this green guy in a red coat and a puppy with a big horn strapped to his head, stealing everybody's presents and roast beasts, leaving not even a crumb big enough for a mouse. But, luckily, the assault didn't succeed. Christmas came, it came just the same.

Author:  StrongRad [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

Didymus wrote:
*Hits IJ with Folding Chair of Thwacky +3 just to prove to the forum members he's still mortal*

There is a War on Christmas. Why, I just saw it first hand myself! There was this green guy in a red coat and a puppy with a big horn strapped to his head, stealing everybody's presents and roast beasts, leaving not even a crumb big enough for a mouse. But, luckily, the assault didn't succeed. Christmas came, it came just the same.


I saw that.. He was a mean one, for sure.

I love how everything in this country is a "war". "WAR ON POVERTY", "WAR ON DRUGS", etc..
Is it me, or does a war on homelessness sound like we're going to have B-52's fly over Skid Row?

Seriously, it DOES annoy me how everything has to be so "politically correct". While I deel that a certain amount of PC is justified, some people take it too far. The whole 'Can't say Merry Christmas because it is a recognition of one religion over another' thing is a prime example.

People don't seem to be too upset about Christmas to spend billions of dollars... You would think that, if Christmas bothered them that much, they'd all stay home.

Author:  lahimatoa [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:04 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Uh, I can't tell what you meant by that, if you are sarcastic or not. So, the reason why I hate O'Reilly know is that I followed his link and I saw some... I will say some less than kind words he said about Jews. But I despise Michael Moore. Last O'Reilly comment from me.


Yikes. I hadn't clicked the link until now, but the sheer overpowering sense of "I swear to indicate I'm ticked off and have a feeble mind" completely obliterated whatever message the author was trying to convey.

Quite the ineffective tactic, if you ask me.

Author:  StrongRad [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

lahimatoa wrote:
Quote:
Uh, I can't tell what you meant by that, if you are sarcastic or not. So, the reason why I hate O'Reilly know is that I followed his link and I saw some... I will say some less than kind words he said about Jews. But I despise Michael Moore. Last O'Reilly comment from me.


Yikes. I hadn't clicked the link until now, but the sheer overpowering sense of "I swear to indicate I'm ticked off and have a feeble mind" completely obliterated whatever message the author was trying to convey.

Quite the ineffective tactic, if you ask me.


Did you click on the links that led to the O'Reilly vids?

THOSE are the ones you need to look at. Ignore the "CENSORED!"Christmas one..

I typed CENSORED there, not a worty dird.. :)

Author:  lahimatoa [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Did you click on the links that led to the O'Reilly vids?

THOSE are the ones you need to look at. Ignore the "CENSORED!"Christmas one..

I typed CENSORED there, not a worty dird.. Smiley


No, but I will now. Thanks for the heads up.

Author:  Crystallina [ Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

I find it very ironic that the ACLU is getting involved in this. To me, at least, the freedom to express my religion publically falls under "civil liberties".

It's a freedom of speech issue to me. If somebody says Merry Christmas to me, that's their right. If someone says Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings to me, that's their right.

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