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If Hell Was Real....
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6337		 Page 5 of 10
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:13 pm ]
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
Here's a question:

What the heck happened to the people that died before the birth of Christ and the founding of Christianity? Are they condemned to hell just because they were born too early?

As with all things, it is totally up to God's mercy what happens to those people. My personal thought is that at least the saints of ancient times (Abraham, Isaac, David, the Prophets, and even ordinary people who had their faith) are well within God's provisional care. But that's just my thinking.
Author:  topofsm [ Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:28 am ]
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I always thought they were just waiting somewhere (like purgatory or whatever) until he died, and they were sent to where they deserved to be.
Author:  Acekirby [ Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:38 pm ]
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
Here's a question:

What the heck happened to the people that died before the birth of Christ and the founding of Christianity? Are they condemned to hell just because they were born too early?

I thought that when Jesus died on the cross, during the time he was dead, he descended to hell and freed the righteous that had not been saved from sin.
Author:  DukeNuke [ Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:23 pm ]
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I think I read that you aren't sent directly to hell/heaven after you die, but you're sent to some kind of waiting room, to wait for the end of time or something, and after that you're sent to hell/heaven.

Eider way, wherever dead people go, that place got to be preatty crowded by now...

BTW, I found some rather interesting paradoxes on wikipedia earlier. I think this one is the most interesting one:

If a person deserves the recipient of the prayer to give him the thing he prays for, why doesn't he receive it, even without prayer? And if a person is not deserving of it, then even if that person does pray and request it, should it be given just because of his prayer?
Author:  The Experimental Film [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Hmm.
DukeNuke wrote:
If a person deserves the recipient of the prayer to give him the thing he prays for, why doesn't he receive it, even without prayer? And if a person is not deserving of it, then even if that person does pray and request it, should it be given just because of his prayer?

Just because you pray for it, doesn't mean God says "yes"...
Author:  Alberto [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:52 am ]
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To what I figure, hell would be everything One would absolutely hate.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 pm ]
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Quote:
If a person deserves the recipient of the prayer to give him the thing he prays for, why doesn't he receive it, even without prayer? And if a person is not deserving of it, then even if that person does pray and request it, should it be given just because of his prayer?

You're operating under a false assumption, Duke. The key word there is "deserves." By my understanding, answer to prayer isn't a matter of deserving, but a matter of God's grace. I seem to remember Jesus praying in Gethsemane, "Father, take this cup from me." Now, if there ever was a person on this planet who deserved to have his prayers answered, it was Jesus. Nevertheless, instead of the cup being taken from him, he was forced to drink it to the last drop (in case you missed it, the cup to which he refers is his own suffering and death on the cross). But even as he prayed it, Jesus knew his destiny would not change, which is why he concluded his prayer by placing his fate within the Father's hands: "Nevertheless, your will be done."
Author:  Teh Ch8t [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Douglas wrote:
Well, being a Bible-believing Christian, here's my two shekels...

Hell is a place where you go after you die when you have denied the existence of God, or rejected him. I figure that when you get there, there will be nothing. No people. No nothing. So you definitely won't be with your friends who have also gone to hell, as some people seem to think.

The real agony of hell will come from the absolute absence of God. When someone is in hell, he/she will realize that, in fact, there is a God, and that he/she rejected him, and this is their punishment. Most likely that will make them angry at God for abandoning them... and when they try to remember memories of their time on earth to quell the loneliness, those memories will fade away.

Sothat's what I think hell would be like. Complete and utter loneliness and nothingness, without God.


I agree that seems most logical, but what about Purgatory, what happens there? Is that for people who kind of believe in god or something? Or have doubted him in some ways.

Didymus wrote:
Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
Here's a question:

What the heck happened to the people that died before the birth of Christ and the founding of Christianity? Are they condemned to hell just because they were born too early?

As with all things, it is totally up to God's mercy what happens to those people. My personal thought is that at least the saints of ancient times (Abraham, Isaac, David, the Prophets, and even ordinary people who had their faith) are well within God's provisional care. But that's just my thinking.


Before Christ was born, in Mythology, the heavens were already created, possible explaining where people went. Also in mythology Pandora opened the box/jar and all the unfortunates came out, one was being able to die. All of this about Mythology isn't believed as a religion anymore, but that might explain things. Also, I agree with what Acekirby had said, that yes they were sent to Hell, but Christ retrieved the ones that were saved from sin from hell.
Author:  Didymus [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:47 pm ]
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I contend that purgatory doesn't exist, at least not the traditional Dante image of a place where Christians must be purged of sin before they can enter God's presence. The Bible doesn't mention such a place, and neither do any of the Church Fathers. While it is necessary for us to be disciplined in God's love in this life, I do not believe that there is such a need in the next. After all, Scripture teaches that in the resurrection we will be given new bodies that are completely free from corruption.
Author:  Teh Ch8t [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:11 pm ]
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Didymus wrote:
I contend that purgatory doesn't exist, at least not the traditional Dante image of a place where Christians must be purged of sin before they can enter God's presence. The Bible doesn't mention such a place, and neither do any of the Church Fathers. While it is necessary for us to be disciplined in God's love in this life, I do not believe that there is such a need in the next. After all, Scripture teaches that in the resurrection we will be given new bodies that are completely free from corruption.

Wow, I was totally wrong... (I think). I've only read the bible alittle and I don't go to church very often... hopefully that doesn't make me bad :eek:
Author:  Didymus [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:10 pm ]
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I would say not. Although, as someone who is professionally concerned about such things, I'd recommend them. After all, God gave us these means of grace; they are there for our benefit.
Author:  Teh Ch8t [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:58 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
I would say not. Although, as someone who is professionally concerned about such things, I'd recommend them. After all, God gave us these means of grace; they are there for our benefit.


Well I try to, whenever I see a bible I usually read it...
Author:  sb_enail.com [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:17 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
I would say not. Although, as someone who is professionally concerned about such things, I'd recommend them. After all, God gave us these means of grace; they are there for our benefit.


I agree. Nowhere does it say you have to go to church, but the fellowship is important.
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:34 pm ]
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Actually, yes it does. But notice what the reason is: so you can be mutually encouraged by other Christians. In other words, for our benefit.
Author:  Schmelen [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:10 am ]
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My opinion:
Hell is just an excuse to get people to be good. Great idea.
Author:  Mikes! [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:47 am ]
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I think it's a terrible idea. One should a postive life for the benefits of a good life, and nothing less. To use a scare tactic for that end seems insidious, honestly.
Author:  StrongRad [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:07 am ]
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Mikes! wrote:
I think it's a terrible idea. One should a postive life for the benefits of a good life, and nothing less. To use a scare tactic for that end seems insidious, honestly.


It's not a scare tactic, though, and it's not used to motivate people to be "good"...
Heaven is the motivation for being "good". If you lead the correct life (whatever that may be), you go to heaven. Otherwise, you go to hell.

Personally, (and I'm sure this is a function of the type of church one attends) I look forward to heaven more than I fear hell. The rewards of Heaven, not the punishment of Hell, were my primary reason for being saved in the first place.
Author:  Cleverdan [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:29 pm ]
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I'm reaally searching for my religion here at this age, any religion. This is my feelings about. I kind of agree with COLA, but the way I see it is, if you are raised in India or someplace, ad are Bhuddist, you go to Hell??? I mean, there are other good religions, so it means that you will be tortured eternally just for a belief? That just doesn't seem kind or right to me. I think, personally, that you can lead a happy life without God or any religion. But I am not anti-religion. I question and investigate all the religions, looking for some sort of answer, say the sage at the top of the mountain ;)
Author:  Mikes! [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
StrongRad wrote:
Mikes! wrote:
I think it's a terrible idea. One should a postive life for the benefits of a good life, and nothing less. To use a scare tactic for that end seems insidious, honestly.


It's not a scare tactic, though, and it's not used to motivate people to be "good"...
Heaven is the motivation for being "good". If you lead the correct life (whatever that may be), you go to heaven. Otherwise, you go to hell.

Personally, (and I'm sure this is a function of the type of church one attends) I look forward to heaven more than I fear hell. The rewards of Heaven, not the punishment of Hell, were my primary reason for being saved in the first place.
Okay, I dislike the concept of heaven as well. Using heaven as a motivation still doesn't emphasize the point of acting good for sake of it. Instead, it employs bribery rather than fear to accomplish its goal. Still seems insidious.
Author:  Ju Ju Master [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Schmelen wrote:
My opinion:
Hell is just an excuse to get people to be good.


I agree. I've always thought that religion was just a hoax to get people to be civil. It makes the most sense

I don't beleive there is a god, because it's the logical, scientific answer. If there isa god, and he wants us to beleive in nhim, then why does he make it so impossible to do? By beleiving him, you are ignoring scientific theories and facts. I'm a logical person, should I go to hell for that?

On a slightly different topic, why is the devil considered evil, exactly? (If the devil even exists, that is) He just got a bad job. Someone has to punish the evil. If he "brainwashes" people, and supernaturally persuade them to be evil, why would he later punish them for doing so?
Author:  sb_enail.com [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:27 pm ]
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Ju Ju Master wrote:
If he "brainwashes" people, and supernaturally persuade them to be evil, why would he later punish them for doing so?


From what I understand, he doesn't "brain-wash" people, per se, but he does tempt them to take the easy route, the broad and crooked path, and the reward for doing so is instant and temporary, and in return for these rewards: your soul. This is the opposite of being faithful to God and following His commandments and the teachings of Jesus, where there is no instant gratification and the reward is in heaven. I don't see why heaven should be considered bribery, and if it is, what are we doing in order to obtain it? Being kind to our fellow man, living a moral life, attempting to model ourselves after the example of Jesus Christ, spreading His message of love and compassion, believing that He is the risen Savior and returning the persecution all Christians inevitably face with love.
Author:  Cobalt [ Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ju Ju Master wrote:
I don't beleive there is a god, because it's the logical, scientific answer. If there isa god, and he wants us to beleive in nhim, then why does he make it so impossible to do? By beleiving him, you are ignoring scientific theories and facts. I'm a logical person, should I go to hell for that?


don't think that the Christian concept of God is the only one. it's at least as logical to believe in God than not to, and it doesn't require ignoring reality. the great Rabbi Rambam said "When science and religion disagree, it's because you're misinterpreting the Bible."

Quote:
On a slightly different topic, why is the devil considered evil, exactly? (If the devil even exists, that is) He just got a bad job. Someone has to punish the evil. If he "brainwashes" people, and supernaturally persuade them to be evil, why would he later punish them for doing so?


again, this is a Christian concept. Judaism has no devil -- Satan is just another angel doing the job he was created to do, acting as an accuser, like the prosecuting attorney in the heavenly court.

it just bugs me when people say, "well, Christianity doesn't make any sense, therefore God doesn't exist." Christianity is not the only religion out there.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 pm ]
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Actually, the name Satan literally means, "Adversary." And you might want to note the not-so-friendly exchange between Satan and God in Job 1. While it is true that God still has power and authority over Satan, it is also clear that Satan is not exactly on Job's side.

Furthermore, in Zechariah 3, this adversary is portrayed once again in his key role of attempting to drive distance between God and his servants. In this account, he is trying to alienate God from Joshua the High Priest (who, in the vision, represented the whole people of God).

Furthermore, while the snake in the Garden is never named in the Genesis account, it is known that this was actually Satan in disguise.

So, based on all these accounts, it's pretty clear that, regardless of his disposition toward God himself, this Adversary is most certainly not on our side, but rather does everything he can to alienate God from people.

Mikes, I would agree with you on a few points: to do good just for the sake of escaping evil or to receive a reward are not the most noble reasons for doing good. However, I do not believe that this in any way demonstrates that heaven and hell are not realities. Keep in mind, at least according to my thinking, heaven and hell are defined primarily in terms of eternal habitation with and eternal separation from God. (In other words, it's the presence of God, or lack thereof, that make heaven and hell what they are).

Now, for the Christian, we do not do good to "earn" eternal life with God. That, we recognize, is a gift from God that we cannot earn. No. The Christian does good because God motivates us to do so. Whenever we are kind to our neighbors, it is Christ himself that is showing the kindness. And the Christian does not fear hell; its power over us has been broken by Christ's crucifixion and resurrection (which is made real to us through the Word and the Sacraments). We do not do good to escape hell, or to earn heaven; we do good because we are thankful for what God has done for us, and wish to express our gratitude through service to others.
Author:  Cobalt [ Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
Actually, the name Satan literally means, "Adversary." And you might want to note the not-so-friendly exchange between Satan and God in Job 1. While it is true that God still has power and authority over Satan, it is also clear that Satan is not exactly on Job's side.

Furthermore, in Zechariah 3, this adversary is portrayed once again in his key role of attempting to drive distance between God and his servants. In this account, he is trying to alienate God from Joshua the High Priest (who, in the vision, represented the whole people of God).


so? nobody ever said that Satan was "on our side." his job is to be the adversary, so that's what he does. he doesn't do it just because he's a jerk; that's the reason that God created him. he's not himself "evil" because he hasn't the capacity to be anything but what he is.

Quote:
Furthermore, while the snake in the Garden is never named in the Genesis account, it is known that this was actually Satan in disguise.


"it is known"? i beg to differ. it is postulated, at best. by Christians.
Author:  Plastique [ Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:14 pm ]
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The reason I don't agree with Christianity is because I see this whole 'you go to Hell if you don't believe in our God' as a threat to get people to join Christianity. I mean, how can we be sure which Religion is right if there are so many?

As for me, I believe in no religion, I'm a Darwinist. I think that religion does more bad than good (telling tribal people about 'Hell' when they have enough to worry about, for example, crusaders and reinquistitions in the olden days). Let's face it, if 'Jesus' came back today, going around saying he was the son of God, well he's probably in an exiled mental institution somewhere in Africa.

I'll start believing in God once he says in a big, booming voice from the sky;
"I am God, worship me!"
Author:  lahimatoa [ Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I'll start believing in God once he says in a big, booming voice from the sky;
"I am God, worship me!"



That day may come sooner than you think. :)
Author:  Plastique [ Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Schmelen wrote:
On a slightly different topic, why is the devil considered evil, exactly? (If the devil even exists, that is) He just got a bad job.


Hehe. "But really, the devil is an okay guy, he's just got a crappy job!"
Ironically, the Poopsmith seems to be some kind of devil in his Old-Timey form.
Author:  Plastique [ Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:36 pm ]
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In my eyes, Religion has been proven wrong by Science. But for some reason, people are still willing to believe one guy who lived back when technology was at a minimal, saying he had heard the voice of God, but they aren't willing to believe a group of men-in-white-coats with some of the greatest technology seen by the world.

Most Christians base their beliefs on the fact that the Universe simply can't have been there forever and needed a creator. On the other hand, they are quite happy to believe that God has been there forever without a creator...

Anyway, I'm getting out of here. I don't like talking about Religion, it reminds me of death. And if this 'you go to Hell if you don't believe in God' theory is true, you Christians are just as screwed as us Athiests if one of the other Religions are true! Let's just hope Hinduism hasn't been the big mac all this time, huh?
Author:  Didymus [ Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:09 pm ]
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Actually, Plastique, most Christians (in fact, ALL Christians) base their beliefs on the fact that a man named Jesus of Nazareth came down here claiming to be God, and by his deeds proved it. To the vast majority of us, the Big Bang is really a non-issue.
Author:  Sblounskched! [ Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:44 pm ]
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Some people have told me that hell, if you go there you work for satin moving rocks and building stuff for him.

Errr, that was like, third grade, so I..learned alot of things about hell when I was young..
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