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If Hell Was Real....
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Author:  Mr.KISS [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
but god said that punishment will be paid for eternity, but if god forgives, then why are you still being tourtured with a on going of Demons and Deep Ones stripping your skin off?


Because that person obviously didn't care about their sins. If god is to forgive you, you have to want it.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
If god is to forgive you, you have to want it.


Allow me to play Devil's Advocate here... what if you want it... and god doesn't? You may have sinned, changed your ways, and still turned away at the gates?

Quote:
Well, maybe the punishments aren't infinite, we can't be sure.


This would make more sense to me.

Dante's interpretation of hell has always been the one I stuck with, seeing as The Inferno is one of my favorite books.

But, to me, the whole idea of accepting "him" always sounded like a get out of jail free card as far as hell is concerned. That is why I never bought into christianity... It seemed to me as if atonment for your actions would be unnecessary, due to the fact that you'd already be forgiven...

I prefer karma, even though I have probably received plenty of bad karma over the years. The reason why? You ultimately have to accept responsibility for your actions... not then... but sooner.
Author:  Alexander [ Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:09 pm ]
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DeathlyPallor wrote:
Quote:
If god is to forgive you, you have to want it.


Allow me to play Devil's Advocate here... what if you want it... and god doesn't? You may have sinned, changed your ways, and still turned away at the gates?

That isn't possible with God. God does want you to be with him. Like how if you where a parent, you would want your child to grow up to love you. You see, if you repent to the Lord, the Lord will forgive you. God is never bitter to anyone who is willing to accept him.

Unless you mean you changed your ways, but refused to repent to the Lord. Then he will not accept you.

Anyways, in my personal opinion, I think the defintion of hell has more to do with the person then the place. Because I have heard that even Satans followers suffer there. No one feels any peace there, ever. The feeling of warmth or trust is no longer known by you. In other words, you forget what good is.
And it is because of this that I find sin to be such a frightning thing.

Oh yes, Hello. My name is Alexander, I'm a strong Christian as you could probably tell. And I'm quite glad to be here to conversate with you all. Thank you.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:57 am ]
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I'm sorry, but I don't get the common view of hell. Or rather I do get it, and think it's silly and unfair. People are entitled to believe as they wish and all that, but at the same time...

Someone who lives a wonderful life donating to charity and fighting for people's rights and being an all round great bloke decides not to be Christian.
There is no absolute proof to believe in god, so he chooses another belief system that makes him feel more comfortable.

And he goes to hell. Forever.

Meanwhile, Stanley Homophobe/Racist/Scrooge/Miser/General Muppet gets to go to heaven... just because he accepted God.

How do you sleep with yourselves at night believing this is true? Seriously?

If this is true, I don't see how God is so fogiving.
Author:  Mr.KISS [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Christmas Rose wrote:
I'm sorry, but I don't get the common view of hell. Or rather I do get it, and think it's silly and unfair. People are entitled to believe as they wish and all that, but at the same time...

Someone who lives a wonderful life donating to charity and fighting for people's rights and being an all round great bloke decides not to be Christian.
There is no absolute proof to believe in god, so he chooses another belief system that makes him feel more comfortable.

And he goes to hell. Forever.

Meanwhile, Stanley Homophobe/Racist/Scrooge/Miser/General Muppet gets to go to heaven... just because he accepted God.

How do you sleep with yourselves at night believing this is true? Seriously?

If this is true, I don't see how God is so fogiving.


Well, when you die we don;t know what happens. Maybe god will give you a chance to repent, we don't know.

And just accpeting god (maybe) won't cut it. You have to repent.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:06 am ]
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Besides, no one is even near deserving heaven anyways.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Besides, no one is even near deserving heaven anyways.


That is one of the best quotes on here! Bravo! :eekdance:

Also, repentance is an idea that many people abuse. Many people's idea of what is considered "God's work," or "The Lord's Work" if you prefer, would go against many of the ideologies taught in the New Testament and what Jesus taught. Such as, bombing an abortion clinic, what have you. I don't think that they deserve a place of such splendor. If people like them are in Heaven, the alternative seems like a much more tempting option.

Personally, I am a good person, and I would sooner rot in Hell than be dishonest with myself, deny my personal beliefs and live to an ideal that doesn't suit me which is based on the fear of going Hell if I am not a member of said faith. Condemn me all you wish, but it is not your place to judge me or even insinuate I may go to Hell. Because that goes against Matthew 7:1.

A person is not considered "good" to me on the grounds of if they are a Christian, Wiccan or whatever faith they practice and believe in, it's about who they are.
Author:  Douglas [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:53 pm ]
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Besides, no one is even near deserving heaven anyways.


Exactly! No one deserves heaven. That's where God's mercy comes in. When you ask him for forgivenes for your sins, They're erased as if they never happened.

No matter how much you give to charity, or do good things, it's still not good enough to get into heaven. The only way you can get there is through God's help.

If you think you're good enough to get into heaven, ask yourself this: have you ever stolen? Even taking a penny that isn't yours is still stealing. Have you ever hated anyone? Jesus says that that's the same as murdering them in your heart. Have you ever looked at someone with lust? That might as well be adultery.

That's why people who are Christians will go to heaven, but others will not. It's because Christians have a relationship with God, and can ask for his forgiveness. Non-Christians can't do that.
Author:  Cobalt [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
L'homme du Neige wrote:
Exactly! No one deserves heaven. That's where God's mercy comes in. When you ask him for forgivenes for your sins, They're erased as if they never happened.

No matter how much you give to charity, or do good things, it's still not good enough to get into heaven. The only way you can get there is through God's help.

If you think you're good enough to get into heaven, ask yourself this: have you ever stolen? Even taking a penny that isn't yours is still stealing. Have you ever hated anyone? Jesus says that that's the same as murdering them in your heart. Have you ever looked at someone with lust? That might as well be adultery.

That's why people who are Christians will go to heaven, but others will not. It's because Christians have a relationship with God, and can ask for his forgiveness. Non-Christians can't do that.


sorry, but that's complete crap. centuries before Christianity existed the Jews had a relationship with God -- and still do, as a matter of fact -- and also had a fully-functioning system of repentence, and never required anyone to be absolutely perfect to deserve to go to heaven. what kind of a jerk would God have to be to create an imperfect creature and then expect him to be perfect? it's absurd. it's like saying you need to have got 100% on every test in school to get into university. nobody could ever possibly do it, and you'd have to be an idiot or a sadist to expect that; and i do not believe that God is an idiot or a sadist, but you apparently do.

all you need to get into heaven is to be a good person, and being a good person does not require perfection.
Author:  Dark Grapefruit [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:40 pm ]
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Besides, no one is even near deserving heaven anyways.


And by the same argument, no one is even near deserving hell.
Author:  Encountering Gremlins [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cobalt wrote:
sorry, but that's complete crap. centuries before Christianity existed the Jews had a relationship with God -- and still do, as a matter of fact -- and also had a fully-functioning system of repentence, and never required anyone to be absolutely perfect to deserve to go to heaven. what kind of a jerk would God have to be to create an imperfect creature and then expect him to be perfect? it's absurd. it's like saying you need to have got 100% on every test in school to get into university. nobody could ever possibly do it, and you'd have to be an idiot or a sadist to expect that; and i do not believe that God is an idiot or a sadist, but you apparently do.

all you need to get into heaven is to be a good person, and being a good person does not require perfection.


Yeah, I basically agree with this.

Also, God seems like he would have to be an equivalent of that guy who's generally a very good and caring person, but has an enormous difficulty with letting grudges go, the way some Christians portray him.

"I did all this for you, and you pretend like I don't exist? That's it. YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!!! FOREVER!!!"
Author:  Upsilon [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:43 pm ]
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I've made my views on this recurring subject clear in a couple of topics and I don't feel like reiterating them.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Upsilon, please link directly to posts as it's hard to siffle through 12 page long topics looking for a single opinion.

Though I'm already pretty peaved at the way a particular someone put across his opinion :/
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Rose wrote:
Quote:
Maybe irrational isn't the right word here. Maybe "transcending reason" or "above reason" would be a better way to describe it.

- Didymus, on why he(or any Christian) never has to provide any amount of sense or logic in their argument
.
Wrong as usual, Rose. My statement makes clear the reality that there are some things in existence that transcend human understanding. That is, unless you are claiming to be all-seeing and all-knowing. As it is, I feel like I've presented plenty of evidence as to why I believe as I do, evidence which you yourself have continually chosen to ignore. So, once again, instead of documenting your claims, you are resorting to ridicule and insult.

I mean, how would you like it if I wrote something like:
Quote:
Asking me to present evidence and sound reasoning is a logical fallacy.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
But it's not beyond our understanding, we can see very well what's going on. It's people making excuses rather than coming up with a more reasonable explanation that ticked me off as being pretty ridiculous.

You can apply "it's beyond human understanding!!!" to just about anything to get someone off the hook.

"Why, oh why, did you steal the neighbour's telivison and sell our children into Slave Labour?"
"Well... I'd tell you... but it's beyond your understanding..."

Suddenly, nobody has to use any kind of reason or sense to justify their actions, because how does him being "God" make him exempt from explaining himself? Because he says so?

What you're saying also fails to take into account that the bible isn't solid proof for most people. If it was, people would be able to judge this "God" character and make judgements for themselves. But even then, it wouldn't be fair to reject people as it brings us closer to a real life example. What if some guy started his own cult saying if people didn't accept him, he'd burn people alive? How is that worse, or even as bad as what you're saying the Christian God does? Your belief that the Christian God is the one true one is just your belief and opinion, again a concept most hardcore religious folk don't understand. Someone else may have the belief that Mr. Burns-people-alive is the one true God, defended by some obscure form of ancient scripture that was unearthed.

And "Greater people" living by your book is not only offensive but utterly irrelevant; unless you can prove a correlation, that is.

Why would you cast away people who displayed your virtues but did not accept you as God? Do you realise there are very strong words for people like that?

God sounds like the biggest advocator of religious discrimination in existence. Nobody should burn because they found a different truth. If you're happy with that happening, I can't honestly say I find your way of thinking very productive.

To me, it looks like hell is an excuse. An excuse for you to shove your beliefs on to your children, an excuse to put people who don't accept them through pain, an excuse to try to force people to be the same as you. Though more than likely you're the one that got suckered than the one doing the suckering.

If fear pushes you to believe, then you don't believe very strongly at all.

God used our definition of forgiveness and acceptance. Yet, he refuses to abide by it.

I'm sorry if this is offensive to you, but screw it, saying I'm going to burn because I didn't accept some god who claims to be the most forgiving thing ever and chucks people into firey pits does offend me just a little. I'd rather take my chances with other, much nicer celestial beings existing.

If my major sins are my trans/homosexuality and my acceptance of Lady Gaia as my true God, then I don't think I'll be terribly tormented by them. I don't want to spend enternity in the light of some God that is bigger than any bigot I've ever met. Regardless of what you think, some of us have moral strength, and I would not take that route.

Note that I do not think personally think this is what the Christian God wants to do, in fact, I don't believe many people believe in the Christian God any more; they worship some book instead. Read Terry Pratchett's Small Gods, or rather an online synposis of it, to see what I mean.
Author:  Upsilon [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Christmas Rose wrote:
Upsilon, please link directly to posts as it's hard to siffle through 12 page long topics looking for a single opinion.


Done, although the reason I didn't do this in the first place was because the discussions stretched to way more than a single post.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Upsilon wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
Upsilon, please link directly to posts as it's hard to siffle through 12 page long topics looking for a single opinion.


Done, although the reason I didn't do this in the first place was because the discussions stretched to way more than a single post.


Thanks, I just needed somewhere to start from.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Christmas Rose wrote:
But it's not beyond our understanding, we can see very well what's going on. It
This topic is about what hell is like and if it exists. If you can see perfectly well what's going on, do you have any proof?
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
But it's not beyond our understanding, we can see very well what's going on. It
This topic is about what hell is like and if it exists. If you can see perfectly well what's going on, do you have any proof?


That was taking it well out of context. It doesn't matter what hell is other than a bad place to spend eternity, and we're presuming for this God/Hell exists. We can see that he is putting people who don't bow down at his feet in great pain. There isn't any higher understanding to this; unless you're smart enough to rationalise your beliefs.
Author:  Encountering Gremlins [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Buh... just reading a little over half of that thread about whether or not non-Christians are going to Hell from Upsilon's starting point just made me feel a little uneasy. It was a rare occasion that I saw a single post in there without at least some philosophical aspect in it that doesn't agree with me, and reminds me why I don't come to the R&P section too often. Though I must stress a lot of great points were made that I can empathize with as well.

Here's my main thing: Is it really impossible to truly accept and highly value the existence of God (as well as the life he's given all of us) without completely dismissing the idea that you suffer eternally if you don't? I'm adamant in my stance in refusing to believe God works in quite that way, and I don't think any amount of evidence from the Bible is going to change how I feel - I'd have to actually be in contact with God himself. "If God's punishments are infinite, why must someone pay for something on Earth that is finite?" - I couldn't agree more.

Also, if no one is deserving of Heaven, and by the same logic, no one is deserving of Hell, then what are we deserving of? Personally, I don't believe either of them exist as a specific location, but that's just me.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:22 pm ]
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Why wouldn't we be deserving of heaven? It's not as if life is that exciting...
Author:  Mr.KISS [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Christmas Rose wrote:
Why wouldn't we be deserving of heaven? It's not as if life is that exciting...


Well, think about it. Heaven is a place of eternal bliss. You'd have to lead an examplory life to even be considered worthy without repenting.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
KISS-Cringle 66 wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
Why wouldn't we be deserving of heaven? It's not as if life is that exciting...


Well, think about it. Heaven is a place of eternal bliss. You'd have to lead an examplory life to even be considered worthy without repenting.


But why does repenting even mean so much? And why is there only one place of eternal bliss, and one place of eternal torment? Why is there not another place for people can't quite make it then?
Author:  Mr.KISS [ Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Christmas Rose wrote:
KISS-Cringle 66 wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
Why wouldn't we be deserving of heaven? It's not as if life is that exciting...


Well, think about it. Heaven is a place of eternal bliss. You'd have to lead an examplory life to even be considered worthy without repenting.


But why does repenting even mean so much? And why is there only one place of eternal bliss, and one place of eternal torment? Why is there not another place for people can't quite make it then?


Well, if people can't quite make it, then too bad. God gives people alot of chances to get on his good side (which is hella easy according to jesus). Repenting is important because you're repnting sins, you know? Those bad things god don't like?
Author:  Jitka [ Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Christmas Rose wrote:
Why is there not another place for people can't quite make it then?


Well, there's Purgatory. If you believe in that sort of thing, that is. I think I do. I really doubt God would send genuinely good people to hell, if there even is such a place.

I myself prefer the idea of annihilation for evil people - the permanent end to their consciousness. That'd be bad enough for me.

But I really have no way of knowing.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:59 am ]
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I think that the idea of a permanent end to conciousness is silly as the indestructibility of conciousness should be one of the corner stones of spirituality.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I'm adamant in my stance in refusing to believe God works in quite that way, and I don't think any amount of evidence from the Bible is going to change how I feel - I'd have to actually be in contact with God himself. "If God's punishments are infinite, why must someone pay for something on Earth that is finite?" - I couldn't agree more.

That's fine, Egg, but there is one concern I have: if not from the Bible, then where are we to get any information about what God would or would not do? I suppose if you did have direct contact with God, then perhaps that would suffice. Perhaps. The problem is that the Bible was written by men who did in fact have direct contact with God. It is difficult, you must understand, to simply set aside what they had to say on the subject, particularly when it concerns what God himself had to say, which was, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes unto the Father except by me." And as one of his most trusted disciples put it, "There is no other name under heaven by which a person can be saved."

As for whether people should suffer eternally for a finite wrong: here's the problem. The Scriptures teach that the wrong men do actually shapes what they are. In other words, men not only commit evil, they also become evil. This is what we mean when we use the term "guilt." And the evil the human race has committed in its history is such that only an act of divine grace can overcome that evil. This is the whole point of the Incarnation, God becoming man, so that he could bring into the world the divine grace to counteract the evil of the world. Or, as Athanasius put it, he who was immortal became mortal so that he could make mortal men immortal.

So what we have is the evil in men continues, even when men set aside their deeds of evil and try to avoid them again. Yet, in order for this evil to be done away with, men must themselves be changed. This, once again, is tied to God becoming man so that he might change the nature of men. Yet what happens when men refuse to be changed? What happens when they do not wish to be cleansed from the wrongs they have committed? That evil persists in the form of guilt.

So, you see, that was the whole point of Christ's coming: so that he might cleanse mankind of all its guilt. Unfortunately, some men did not wish this cleansing. In some cases, it was because they did not accept that this Christ was the one who could do it for them. In other cases, it was because they didn't even want to acknowledge the guilt that they did have. But in any case, those who do not wish to be cleansed still bear their guilt, even beyond death. God had already provided them a way to escape it, but they did not wish it, so they miss out.

To summarize:
1. People who do wrong are guilty of that wrong.
2. In order to enter God's presence, one must be cleansed of that guilt.
3. Those who do not wish to be cleansed will not be able to enter God's presence.
Author:  Cobalt [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:

As for whether people should suffer eternally for a finite wrong: here's the problem. The Scriptures teach that the wrong men do actually shapes what they are. In other words, men not only commit evil, they also become evil. This is what we mean when we use the term "guilt." And the evil the human race has committed in its history is such that only an act of divine grace can overcome that evil. This is the whole point of the Incarnation, God becoming man, so that he could bring into the world the divine grace to counteract the evil of the world. Or, as Athanasius put it, he who was immortal became mortal so that he could make mortal men immortal.


allow me to point you to a scriptural quote that totally destroys the Xian idea that we need some unearned "grace" ever to avoid eternal damnation and to gain a place in heaven:

Genesis 4:6-7 wrote:
Why are you so disturbed, and why has your countenance fallen? Surely, if you improve yourself, you will be forgiven. But if you do not improve yourself, sin rests at the door. Its desire is toward you, yet you can conquer it.


If you improve yourself, you will be forgiven. Sin's desire is toward you, yet you can conquer it. quite clearly, God is telling us that we have evil desires and we've done evil things, but we are created with the capability not only to resist the desire to do wrong, but also to be forgiven by virtue of improving our behavior.
Author:  Kittie Rose [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
But why does God only resolve those of guilt that accept him as their one true God? Wouldn't God prefer human beings to find strength in themselves, if they were to ever be truly resolved of guilt?
Author:  Crystallina [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Cobalt wrote:
allow me to point you to a scriptural quote that totally destroys the Xian idea that we need some unearned "grace" ever to avoid eternal damnation and to gain a place in heaven:

Genesis 4:6-7 wrote:
Why are you so disturbed, and why has your countenance fallen? Surely, if you improve yourself, you will be forgiven. But if you do not improve yourself, sin rests at the door. Its desire is toward you, yet you can conquer it.


If you improve yourself, you will be forgiven. Sin's desire is toward you, yet you can conquer it. quite clearly, God is telling us that we have evil desires and we've done evil things, but we are created with the capability not only to resist the desire to do wrong, but also to be forgiven by virtue of improving our behavior.


What translation are you using? I can't find any that state "improve yourself". For instance, the NIV states "do what is right"; I don't have a KJV at my house but I looked it up on a reputable Internet site and it said something similar; I took the time to check a few more and none of them said anything to that effect.

The other aspect of your argument refers to the words "can conquer it". Taking the NIV (it's the translation I was given by my grandmother; I used to have a Revised Standard but the book is in bad condition.) the last part of these scriptures read "...you must master it." The others all state similar facts. A large difference there. Instead of capability, it is mentioning necessity.
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