Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

No religion's hands are clean. But still... Christianity has proved to be the bully of all the relgions... especially in the USA.

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There's two possibilities. Either one derives/inherits/absorbs/or outright steals traditions and customs as Rosalie and DP are saying. The other is that these customs develop on their own, or are so common that it really doesn't matter.

The CCG link Rosalie provided is an example of the latter at some parts, claiming things such as candles are directly derived from pagans. Yet, religions all around the world use both candles (and incense, 'recommended' in a way by the CCG)! Jews, Christians, Buddhist, Shintos--and candles are a very widespread item for household use. They always have been. To attrbiute something like candles to culture theft is outright wack.

I could say the same of tree decorating and how it links to the Christmas tree. As has been pointed out, the tree as we know it can be easily traced back to 16th century Germany or so--several sources say this. Between Rosalie's links and my own research, I've found that as far as what the pagans did, it was mainy oaks, ash, and not pine that was decorated, and this indeed was widespread across Ireland to Germany and Scandinavia. Egypt did something similar with palm trees, and the Romans used branches to decorate their houses during Saturnalia. A greek mystery religion used pine trees as is the custom today--but like with MIthraism I question what impact a secretive, private religion would have on open religions. It just seems inconclusive to me--unlike, say, Halloween, where we KNOW that Christian missionaries jacked that holiday ... I see the same "Thomas Edison and the Lightbulb scandal" in some Christmas traditions, like the tree. (For those that don't know, Thomas Edison actually was one of several people to invent the lightbulb and patent litigation occured)

Santa Claus is somewhat the same way, except it's more clear--far more clear--that St. Nicholas was the original figure of the tradition, and it's well knwn that he himself was a generous man--and some stories include his secret gift giving. It may well be that some pagan traditions, such as leaving hay for Odin's horse while he was on his winter hunt, have found their way into the modern Santa Claus, but it's chiefly obvious he developed from St. Nicholas. It would be a lot more questionable if a saint who was not known for being generous and gift giving was the originator of Santa Claus, and claims that he is a concept stolen from pagans would have more purchase.

It's pretty clear that those pagan traditions from Scandinavia are the ones that became infused into modern Christian celebrations, too. As for the date, Sol Invictus likely influenced it from New Advent's own sources--but the holiday, the celebration of Jesus' birth was already being celebrated in one fashion or another.

So what do we have? We have Rosalie and Deathly Pallor claiming we're denying theft of Christmas from pagans and that everything I just said, based on her information and mine, is wrong, that every last concept of Christmas is a pagan tradition stolen from them.

Essentially, IanTheGecko said it the best.

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He said "some" when it's plainly obvious it's "most", and "have been given a new meaning" is candy coating it to a degree that I get a sugar rush just by inhaling near it.

But, it's progress, I suppose.

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CLOCK

So did Jitka...way back on page 2. Thanks for the clarification, Cowboy.

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Trust me... there's nothing but candy coating and Christmas as we know it is Theological heartattack... killing the original meaningful truths and replacing them with lies.

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Some is right..
Christmas Traditions as I see them
Christmas Carols - No
Egg Nog- No
Feast - likely
christmas trees- no
candles- no
Birth of Jesus -no
presents - maybe
Santa Claus- maybe
Stockings - maybe, depends on the Santa thing

Looks like "some" is more apt than "most"

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

SR - We are talking about the xtian version of christmas... not Giftmas.

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Well, give me your definition of the Christian version of Christmas, as I've defined it through my Christian eyes

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Read earlier in the thread.. I'm meaning the customs of the timing, the virgin birth... all that jazz. All coinciding with older pagan traditions, but "altered" for xtians.

Their original meanings thrown out to suffice... it's pathetic if you ask me.

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But they have been given a new meaning to Christians. I don't know why the pagans gave gifts many years ago, but Christians do because of the wisemen's gifts to Jesus or whatever. Just like how fireworks on 4th of July celebrate America's independence, not to drive away Chinese evil spirits.

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I hate to say it, but Christianity didnt have a very good track record for "absorbing" things around that time.



Well, yeah. Ceremonial candles were first used by Pagans, I think that's a given. It is a pretty generic thing, but it's still perfectly likely they were carried over rather than reinvented.



To chew on the minor points I didn't even mention in my posts is pretty "whack" too.

I could say the same of tree decorating and how it links to the Christmas tree. As has been pointed out, the tree as we know it can be easily traced back to 16th century Germany or so--several sources say this.





The character of Santa Claus was certainly based on a christian person, though there were a few pagan "Precursors" so to speak(even Odin bears some similiarities in some myths, and you mentioned the horse/hay thing) The character himself, seldom has ties to Christianity, even if the origins are there.



But how was his birth being celebrated? And even then how much was it borrowing from existing festivals in order to entice pagans to convert?



... but so far in this post, you've practically being arguing *my* case.

The majority of traditions are stolen, but only because people refuse to acknowledge where they got them. If I put up a picture of Homeschool Winner and claim I created the character, that's theft of intellectual property. But if I do fanart of Homeschool Winner, and maybe give him something cool like a chainsaw-for-an-arm, or a dolphin fin, as long as I acknowledge TBC created him, it's not really "theft".



He said something that wasn't a one line trite sentiment of persecution? Must have missed it

[quote]Christmas Traditions as I see them

Christmas Carols - No

This is an odd one to bring up. But you can bet at any good old Pagan feast-'em-up there was plenty of appropriate song (and dance). Singing for an occasion isn't something new, and like Candles, a little generic. So this is a definite "maybe".

Egg Nog- No

That's more of an american thing in this day and age, we don't do it much over here.

Feast - likely

DEFINITE.

christmas trees-

YES. We've shown this numerous times. The Widespread use of Spruce was due to a Christian's influence, but the use of evergreen trees, and decorating them, is Pagan.

candles-

YES, but not significant.

Birth of Jesus -no

I don't think that counts somehow, how COULD that be stealing as that's a specific Christian addition? The "Birth" of various Sun Gods is about as close as you can get, and we have that.

presents - maybe

Very yes; Saturnalia.

Santa Claus- maybe

No, but probably influenced by some pagan myths.

Stockings - maybe, depends on the Santa thing

I never thought of stockings. But I'd say that's most likely either Christian or secular in origin.

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CLOCK

So let's say the CCG is absolutely right on its claims. That would make every last culture in the world dirty thieves of the Aryans ... but I don't buy that AT ALL. Why not? The use of candles is widespread and not something unique about a given culture or religion. The claim of thieving something from a culture is more credible when it's something unique to them, not a technology or concept that can be demonstrated as being widespread and starting in various areas.

Y'know, like paper making. Papyrus was invented in Egypt, but the Chinese invented paper too.



And what kind of "minor points" would you be referring to?



I disagree, again. Like I said, this sort of thing would have more credible if, say ... oh, I don't know, St. George had been used instead--someone like him who is absolutely not known for gift giving.

However ... as I recall, Santa Claus' tradition started with St. Nicholas on the day of his feast, and then was slowly the act of doing so was done on Christmas later on. That to me is further proof of a Christian origin where gift giving on Christmas is concerned, but the concept of gift giving does indeed resonate with some pagan traditions that have similarities.



The only things I can see which have been stolen or absorbed is the date on which Christians celebrate, and those traditions which originate from Scandinavia, which nowadays consists of things like Christmas ale, yule logs ... I suppose you could say mistletoe, but from what the evidence has said, it's far more wide spread culturally than I would have believed.

The Christmas tree might have been, it might have not. Historians can't find a direct, obvious link. For the date, there have been proclamations mentioned of moving the date of celebration officially to December 25th, yet the only source I had which showed any sort of reasoning Christians would have had for determining the date of Jesus' birth coinciding then was, well, bunk. It's easy to deduce that the move was either A] an attempt to co-opt Sol Invictus, or B] if what is said of Constantine is true, an attempt to give Christians and pagans a common feast day (but I've seen no such confirmation of that ... )



Remember what I said about you claiming we're persecuting you for asserting that Christmas is not a holiday fully stolen from pagans?



No. New Advent has shown that Christians were celebrating and feasting in honor of Jesus birth prior to the creation of the holiday of Sol Invictus, but there were disagreements across the Empire as to when it should be held.

... Okay, here's one thing I want to ask. This is largely an aside but it does have a point. What are you anyway? Neopagan, am I right?

You might want to consider asking yourself if the traditions you celebrate are a hodepodge of various pagan religions from antiquity. I'm pretty sure that the Norse, for instance, never celebrated a holiday called Samhain, on the exact same date. The Irish/Celtic druids never worshipped Odin or did they celebrate the Norse/Germanic holiday of Yule.

You seem so eager to tear down Christians as lowly holiday thieves and liken it to intellectual property being stolen, and are adamant in claiming it's all been stolen from a pagan culture or another, or mostly stolen with a tiny but of original Christian origins (yet my research, and my looking into your own sources still says differently to that). What about your own religion?

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But unfortunately for you the Chinese didn't have a history of trying to force convert egyptians to their religion.



Incorrect, Saturnalia most certainly predates Christianity, and the "feast" was originally held then. Sol Invictus is an "extra" holiday.



Read what I wrote on Intellectual property again. It's all about acknowledgement. I have no problem with Christians celebrating their version of Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia or whatever as long as they acknowledge that they did not create, but added to, the holiday.

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CLOCK

Ah, yet another jab at Christianity. At least you aren't doing what Deathly Pallor did last page and ranting about Christians killing in the name of God ... and yet, do you think pagans are free of doing ghastly things to people who don't walk their walk? Coercion, subversion, extermination?

Christians were considered antisocial and heathens for refusing to worship the traditional Roman religion (I think the term "atheist" originates from this, that they rejected the Roman pantheon of gods) and were severely persecuted for doing so.

Let's take Tacitus' Annals XV for instance. After the great fire in Rome during 64 AD, Nero made a scapegoat of and inflicted the most tortures on "a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace."





And from your point of view, because an older holiday that involved a feast existed in the Roman empire, the Christians could not possibly have started their own feasts honoring Jesus, even though in this case the sporadic, largely disagreed upon dates on whent to celebrate from Alexandria to Bethlehem say otherwise.

I consider it proof that the holiday Christians celebrate didn't originate from Saturnalia if what we now know as Christmas had such a sporadic start, even more so that none of the dates I saw did not coinicide with Saturnalia itself.

The concept of having a feast itself couldn't possibly have started with the Romans, and since early Christian celebrations of Jesus' nativity didn't start in Saturnalia, I think you have little ground to stand on there.

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Difference is, hun, I don't try to Candy coat that. I know some people did some terrible things supposedly in the name of religion and I learn from the past instead of trying to rewrite it. You didn't call me on the "forcing beliefs on children" thing either - and the reason I don't is that those were more primitive times when people genuinely didn't know any better, and this was their way of explaining things; and their belief systems were much more broad and diverse than Christianity; heck you got a ton of Gods to choose from, for a start.

And regradless, I still appreciate the rich output of culture and mythology.

But the point isn't trying to make a jab at Christianity, merely pointing out something which is entirely relevant as to why it's so hard to believe the innocent faces people put on these things.



You consider very funny things "proof". Someone didn't get you a thesaurus for Christmas.



...why?



Um, we're not arguing about "Jesus celebrations" then, we're arguing about them now. "PEOPLE CELEBRATED JESUS' BIRTH!" doesn't really negative the claim that most Christmas traditions were taken from Pagan customs.

What you've been doing is constructing woefully long and complex arguments that don't really disprove or attack what I'm saying in any relevant way. This is called the "Red Herring" approach.

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CLOCK

Fireworks are an object in a ritual. We are talking about rituals being out an out taken.



The Christmas holiday was actualy considered non-Christian in the 1700's by the Church of England and barred from being celebrated.

Plus, nobody truly knows when Jesus was born... One thing that can attribute to not being able to pin a date on it is changing of the calendar year in the 1700's as well. The change from having March being the beginning of the year to January could have screwed the dates. This is also why october (although octo means eight) is now the 10th month.

Besides, as the evidence states clear, just about everything about the Christmas holiday has been noted to be taken from pagan celebrations.
Deal with it.

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Hey, guess what--so do I. You didn't catch that remark I made about Samhain? Guess not. No one's trying to "candy coat" anything about this, you see.



Is that all you have for me? Yet another snide attack on my intelligence to add to the mountain of similar flames you and DeathlyPallor seem to enjoy administering to everyone else?



"... why?" Since other religions across the world also clebrate with feasts, your accusations that the concept of feasting in honor of Jesus' birthday is a stolen tradition is laughable. That's why.

Do I have to mention the Jewish Passover, a holiday that includes feasting? Nevermind the fact that Passover is from the very religion and culture that Christianity originated! Or how about a little farther away from Europe? Say, Diwali, which is a Hindu festival of lights and highly important to those of the Jain religion?

If the world over celebrates religious occasions through food and feasting, and evidence shows that celebrating Jesus' birth occured outside Rome itself, at varying dates NOT on Saturnalia or the Solstice, how can you possibly cling to the idea that Christians stole the concept of feasting from the Romans?!



Your own sources--primarily from the Church of God article--addressed many Christmas-related traditions, both modern and out of practice. Asking me to read your sources, then referring to my response and debate on them as a red herring tactic is rather curious at best, and I have to wonder what you're after by trying to call rebuttals to what you provide as being logical fallacies.

The red herring approach involves making irrelevant arguments and claiming that proves the point. But in my case, that's not happening here. This thread is about the idea that Christmas was stolen wholesale from paganism, so that requires examining various traditions and their origins, and the reasons they came to be, y'see. The origin of the modern Christmas date, the origin of people celebrating Jesus' birth at all, and all the customs that go along with it. And in my main debate posts, that is what I have focused on doing.

Explain to me how that's a "red herring," because it sure ain't irrelevant.



Not really. The Deathly-Rose tag team has harped on individual traditions, too, when they actually debate rather than throw personal attacks and derogatory remarks everywhere. Why, it's happened within the past few posts, I do believe. And yes, Rosalie, I do consider your pointing out links that address various Christmas or related traditions point by point as part of this.



And several other Christian denominations don't celebrate the holiday either (evidenced by Rosalie's links from the Church of God and an Evangelical website), but it's a point of contention even then and somewhat relies on use of the KJV for interpretation of passage which the debate centers around, aside from schoarly/historical understanding of how the traditions and holidays developed.



Only if you ignore what I and the others have been saying. The evidence doesn't clearly state "just about everything." Some? Yes. I've been saying that from the freakin' start as you should have noted. All? Just about everything? No. You haven't provided enough clear evidence to support your case as far as "all" goes. You haven't provided evidence on all traditions that overturns the problems and issues with what you currently say is true.

Like I said prior, the only real potent link Rosalie provided--the links making up the majority of her contributions to the actual debate--often contradicted eachother on various points.



Oh I am, don't worry. I'm dealing with it by contesting the point with the two opponents before me, who enjoy resorting to personal attacks.

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You still haven't provided a single worthwhile point. 90% of that post was just accusing me of personal attacks and criticising my methods. Nothing you've said provides anything solid enough to contradict. It's not that I don't want to go through your post point by point, or that it's too long this time, it simply would be a wasted effort.

Try being a little less snide and start arguing instead of hurling out personal attacks while accusing us of... hurling out personal attacks.

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CLOCK

Let Christmas Roast have a chance.

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Moreover, nearly all reputable sources on the origins of Christmas say that most traditions come from paganism, and only some Christian ones challenge this.

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CLOCK

these are my traditions as I see them:
Christmas Carols - No
Feast - too general if you ask me
Christmas trees- mostly, not fully
Birth of Jesus -no
Presents - probably, although it's new meaning to me
Christmas lights and candles - no
Seeing family - too general

So some of them come from original pagan practices, but not most of them.

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... why are you repeating what was already said by Strong Rad, AFTER I pretty much proved it wrong? Not to mention that the majority of Christmas traditions are "too general" when you get down to it. The point is where they come from and why they're had. "Feasting" may seem general; but having a specfic at winter time around Winter Solstice in honour of a God is a little less so.

And, as I said, "Birth of Jesus" equates to "Birth of Sungod" which makes it a "maybe" at worst. You also left out mistle toe and including some oddities(I don't think it's fair to include lights since they're just illuminated decorations; which were originally done by pagans).

You're obviously quite young and I'm sorry, but I'm stressed enough as it is.

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CLOCK

Actually, I just didn't include mistle toe and Santa Claus because they weren't part of my Christmas traditions (I know they are for some people though). I just wanted to show an example of a Christian's traditions. I just thought feasting was too general because basically every major holiday has that.
This was also said earlier. A long time ago it was believed Jesus was born on the 25th (see the beginning of this topic), so they had a good reason to put it on that day. We now know now he wasn't, but the date is still used, that's likely why it happens to fall around the same time as this pagan holiday.

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The date was the 25th, which was only a handful of days after various Pagan celebrations of various Sungods. It's not so much the exact date, as the general towards-the-end-of-december time.



We're talking about Secular Christmas, at least I am, and that the majority of the things in it actually belong to paganism originally and not christianity. Christian Christmas, obviously, is a bit different.

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CLOCK

Secular Christmas??

Heh.

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We call it "Christmas" over here and it's celebrated as a Christmas holiday. Considering how most of the traditions are pagan, borrowing the name from Christianity is light in comparison, in my opinion.

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CLOCK

Well, this looks like an interesting start to a debate topic. And, again, easily construed in the subtopic: After all, none would bring this debate to polite company. It's just too heated.

Let's go point by point. First poster -- Trev-MUN -- wins the inital point by bringing the topic up; nobody else thought to. (By the way, I won't be keeping track of points here. You're welcome to on your own, but they won't be accurate. They're almost as bad as "Whose Line" points.) Trev-MUN maintains that Christmas is a unique holiday in history, as far as the myriad celebrations go. This is in response to other posters' beliefs that Christianity stole celebrations from other religions, to be denoted as 'pagan' from here on.

From here, I have a problem with the central argument. What IS paganism? Is it a belief in a myriad of entities, or one? Is it a belief in the standard, neopagan belief in a central 'goddess' and an assortment of lesser ones? Nobody has yet consolidated this, and in doing so they've shown 'paganism' to be nothing more than a patchwork of individual, 'local' gods. Whether or not I believe in this has nothing to do with it; if you want to centralize an uncentralized religion to your own ends, you'll never find proof of consequence.

Anyway. Let's say the central point is December 25th, occasionally "Midwinter's Eve". Christianity celebrates the birth of their central figure at this time. This includes gift-giving, tree-wrapping, however you like. Overlap is secondary to my personal belief, though. As far as I'm concerned, Christians celebrate this because of Christianity, and Pagans celebrate this time because of Paganism. (The fact that the entire 'holiday season' begins right after Thanksgiving in the US is an annoyance to me only because I have to put up with the secular music. But that's secondary.)

Now then. Most Christians believe December 25th is the date of Jesus' birth. So? Even if that was originally the feast of Saturnalia and the center of Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice...nowadays, particularly in countries which are primarily Christian, they're a Christian holiday. But since the original post was about the question of 'theft', I'd have to say it's something in the middle. Yes, Christianity took the 25th of December for their purposes. However, the date is celebrated in a Christian manner, because it is perhaps the center of Christian religion. What this means is that Christians celebrate with formerly-pagan rituals for the purpose of Christianity, which makes those rituals Christian. Whether or not they were stolen is simply moot, and here's my take on individual ones.

First, the feast. I get the feeling this shouldn't even have come up, though. After all, everybody knows the tradition of eating is entirely Pagan, dating back to Roman times when, after a repast of air and lead-lined aquaduct water, some gentleman decided to see how a cow tasted. ...oh, you mean it isn't? Overeating certainly can't be either; nor can overeating in the name of a religion. For the purposes of this discussion, the question of who 'invented' feasts has no bearing whatsoever, as the Christmas feast is intentionally to one God.

Now, if you really wanted to prove a point, we could hop in the WABAC machine and see which pagan group had the first feast.

Second, let's look at the date. The center of winter, in effect the 25th of December for these purposes, is commonly regarded as a turning point. From the 26th to the 31st, there is rest and relaxation, preparing for the new year. The belief that this is the day of Jesus' birth may have been chosen for metaphorical reasons, for example bringing in the new year. Curiously, this may be tied to an even more ancient calendar: the Ancient Egyptians are said to have chosen a calendar of 12 months, 30 days each, and a five day 'festival' period. Additionally, December 25th is the 360th day of the year.

Similar festivities have occurred in other cultures. Were they stolen? Perhaps. However, it may be notable that the entire celebration of Christmas occurs before the five-day festival.

Ah, Santa Claus. Saint Nicholas of Myra. Uh...does this need to be explained?

Now, since I'm running into a personal length limit here, I'm going to wrap it up. The three major questions are date, tree, and Santa Claus, each of which is a primarily 'secular' take on the holiday season. Of these, two are possibly 'twisted', and the third is very much Christian (as pertaining to the season). And of all the traditions, there is not one which has NOT been altered from the original festivity, whether pagan or otherwise. The tree is a pine, at least in the US; the lights are no longer candles, but electric.

One thing I have noticed in this thread, however, is that many are getting their flamethrowers out. The first example of this that I saw was Misty Rose, who entered with a derogatory tone -- even so far as to use the pointlessly insulting neologism 'Xian'. Repeated claims that it was 'far too long' ignored any semblance of thought that the OP had, for the sake of attack. This tone was continued throughout the entire thread, and sheds a poor light on the argument Misty Rose is attempting to present; debates are always as neural as they are neutral.

I have to give props to Cobalt for being an alternate voice. It's always good to have a third, or possibly even a fourth opinion in every case. DeathlyPallor puts Misty Rose to shame in the ferocity of his attack. It seems perhaps that his purpose is merely to troll and, possibly, to back up. Jitka seems a voice of reason in the middle of the split-hair soup, and he's immediately welcomed -- and attacked -- for it. At this point, in my eyes, Misty has lost any semblance of credibility, and would have to work to get it back; she's lost her temper because of an imagined slight.

And then she tells StrongRad to simply shut up, and the thread is wrapped up in a handbasket with a nice red bow. At least it got back on the rails soon afterwards.

As for how and why I celebrate Christmas when I'm Discordian? In the standard way, save that I pass up the church and go straight to the gifts. It's too chaotic not to celebrate.

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Hail Eris, goddess of traffic jams. Particularly the blueberry variety.

You've just stumbled in here now and I really don't think you have any idea what's going on. There's a lot more to this and a very tight little set of constant battles going on. If you saw everything of what DeadlyPallor and I had to put up with you wouldn't be so willing to write us off as trolls. If you saw our AIM convos and how we really feel about this mess, it would turn even a child of Chaos such as yourself MAD.

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CLOCK

A tight set of battles elsewhere means that you have the right to turn a debate thread into a place for you to gripe and moan about how "Xtians" are trying to completely destroy paganism, when neopagans have already done enough on their own? For you to attack anybody with an opposing view, and question my insanity after my own post?

If you say so.

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Hail Eris, goddess of traffic jams. Particularly the blueberry variety.

"Over here"? I'd like the phone numbers of a few of your neighbors so I can call them and ask them whether they believe in Secular Christamas. I dub this phenomenon "The Separation of Christmas and Christmas."



...and I think it might've just gotten a bit more interesting.



Heh.

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