Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

I do not attack anyone with an opposing view. I attack opposing views which are not logically sound, do not meat with reason, or are just plain arrogant and trasparently so. There are PLENTY of "opposing views" I can tolerate, and it's not down to the views presented in this thread, but the manner in which their argument is presented; and most arguments are presented on these boards.
If you cared to flick through some of the old threads, many of the Xians here, who are most likely NOT representative of Xians in general, and I don't "Have it in" for Xians just a particular brand of them, as two of the only friends I have at college are Xian, force certain points without backing them up in the slightest, based their argument off circular logic and all kinds of logical fallacies, and act the victim at the first chance they get.
I must commend on making Trev Mun on making an EFFORT, but his posts are far too long and he gets incredibly narky when people don't answer his posts in the way he wants. He also pushes things that don't actively disprove the intiail claims and there's only so much of it I can put up with.
I am fighting on behalf of what I believe to be history, not because I believe I'm the same religion. However, I still fall under the same general pagan "Umbrella" as these people and I do honour many of those traditions, therefore, I do consider them in some ways "my people", using the term very loosly. I am aware paganism isn't all one big happy family(nor is Christinaity, for that matter), but that doesn't mean that I can't fight for the people who started traditions that I honour and are now having them taken from them.

And don't say that about Neo-Paganism either; it's stupid. For a start much of Discordia's popularity piggy backs on Neo-Paganism, can be considered part of Neo-Paganism, and I hardly think Neo-Paganism is "destroying" paganism. Because we're all fluffy little bunnies? Because being Eclectic is mish mashing Gods in ways some scared non-existant rule says is long, even if, like me, you're also a Theosophist so it's impossible NOT to be Eclectic? Even if that was as true, I don't see how that's as bad as actively forcing someone not to practice their beliefs as was done by Christianity in history; and I'm well aware of the taboo against speaking of the "Burning times", but since we ARE talking about history here, it's relevant, and some Xians do still hold some of those values. Neo-Paganism is Paganism for the modern world, updated, and more scientifically tolerant and a lot easier to follow in this day and age. If you don't like fat Hippie chicks like me having dealings with more than one pantheon and actually making their own beliefs instead of eating from a set plate, then I think you need to rethink your concepts of what "belief" means.
Christinaity has a history of attacking paganism or any non-abrahamic religion; this is history, this is fact, and on that I can base my claim. Your claim however, is baseless slander and has no real meaning to it. Neo Paganism has no history of "destroying" old paganism. There are plenty of Hellenic/Asatru/whatever else reconstructionists about and Neo Pagans still share many things spiritually in common with them, and they most certainly do not "destory" their beliefs.

To wit; don't say rubbish unless you can have some basis for it. I'm not a fluffy bunny, DeathlyPallor isn't even pagan from what I know, and I know, at least to an extent, what I'm talking about.

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I've heard the same smattering of words used to describe any semblance of religion whatsoever; 'there is no logic', etc. You stated yourself that your hostility in this thread is based, not on how the arguments in this thread were presented at first, but on other arguments in other threads.



There's that charming neologism once more. If you don't hate every Christian, then why not merely state the real name rather than shortening it to a word which has been used as insult and sloth for quite some time? As for the 'particular brand', you seem to feel that the vast majority of Christians subscribe to these arguments and logical fallacy; equally, I seem to find that many pagans have a tendency to use the same circular logic and fallacies. As for acting the victim: let us take a look. First post in this thread by Christmas Rose:


Well?


The Norse, the Ancient Egyptians, the Greek and Roman pantheon, the Incans...all of these religions are essentially gone, wiped off the map by the inevitable march of Western progress. What remains now is a smattering of belief systems, an echo of what was there; neopagans, and wiccans in particular, created their own religion, taking it from the past in the same way Christianity may have done throughout the ages. The families who, through some chance of fortune, kept their religion...what about them? There can't be many of them left in the Western world.



Not the reason I'm Discordian. Sorry, try again. Discordianism, to me, is half Zen and half Christian, with a sprinkling of Buddhism and a twist of Evangelism thrown in for fun. In a glass, it appears plaid.



No, because you all come down with a patchwork of religion that /borrows/ from everybody, giving credit only to 'Paganism'. No matter if you're a Theosophist; how do you know that what you call Paganism is correct? You may have borrowed the very worst things from each religion in the past. In this, Neopaganism is no more and no less of a religion that Christianity; it is, however, NEW, because many of the ideas had not been introduced before.

I think that taboo's the smartest thing I've heard recently, amazingly similar to Godwin's Law. Let's keep going with it.



No, I say you're welcome to follow your beliefs, no matter what type they are; so long as you harm none and do not restrict free will, that is. However, in debates, if one person always plays the self-righteous, injured puppy, then eventually someone's going to come along and kick it to see what's underneath. Also, my concept of 'belief' is 'to know that something which cannot necessarily be proven is'.



Now, you have gone straight from claiming that Christians have stolen to stating that Chrstianity destroyed other religions in their entirety. The mental image: Christanity absorbing other religions in some Borg-like manner, the Pope looking on from his stained-glass window with a hideous grin on his face while his advisors stand behind him. Say, maybe I could write a movie; that'd be an interesting concept.

I've stated my basis above, but as you've mentioned reconstructionists, I suppose it could now be added that Neopagans have stolen facets of their religion from /them/. The only difference, I suppose, is that NPagans (gasp, neologism) can continue to play the 'persecution' card. As for being a 'fluffy bunny'? No, I have to say that image doesn't come to mind when I think of you.

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Hail Eris, goddess of traffic jams. Particularly the blueberry variety.

You know what? I'm really beginnin to dislike you as a person. Why? Because my post was a damn good one. It was restrained considering how I was feeling at the time and how much of a moron you were being, and I cleared up a lot of things that should have made you see my argument in a different light.

But you didn't care. You just kept going on without a single care for the content of what I said, just fighting for the sake of fighting. I fight a lot, but NEVER for the sake of just fighting.

You If you're just looking for a fight, then you'll get one. I was already frustrated enough as it was, trying to fight against a bunch of people who don't listen to reason. And it was getting me down a heck of a lot because I know that people like this are responsible for harming my rights everyday. And you don't give a crap. You just wanted to join a gang up on two people who'd been driven to be brink by a group of incredibly frustrating people.
You've already urned my upmost disrespect.

This isn't your fight. Unless you stop for a second and actually consider the full picture; you can get lost. At least Lahi had some kind of reason for fighting even if it felt like he was jumping in.



It's reached breaking point after a long build up of sheer annoyance. Qutie frankly the last thing we needed was another idiot dropping in. I mean, it's not as if we're in a position to bully anyone.



Actually, I always have done. Moreover, most of the time I go out of my way to say "you're being an idiot" rather than "you are an idiot". Which gets ignored because people can't play a victim card with that, so I give up.

I used the phrase "Bible Thumper", IIRC.



No, I never said that, or even implied it. There are only some people that are actively trying to spit on traditions that they owe their owe a lot to.



Well what? If it's true, it's true. Christians are not a persecuted minority by any means; and like it or not, Paganism is in the minority these days and something which doesn't rub a lot of Xians the right way.



You're a vicious little hypocrite, aren't you? I can't have a problem with some christians, let alone christianity, but you can diss neo-paganism as much as you like?

Religion isnt' about passing it on family to family in this day age, or shouldn't be, rather. We've evolved past that.



Not the reason I'm Discordian. Sorry, try again. Discordianism, to me, is half Zen and half Christian, with a sprinkling of Buddhism and a twist of Evangelism thrown in for fun. In a glass, it appears plaid.[/quote]

Yes, so that gives you the right to be a git to neo-pagans then? Go stuff yourself.



Hold on, I've never claimed to have anything more than a patchwork of beliefs. Since I'm an invidual, I make my own individual beliefs out parts of other beliefs that feel right for me. Is it wrong to be an individual? I have never claimed every element as my own, only the structure to which it belongs. I always pay honour and respect to where my beliefs originate. Do not judge me like that. You know almost nothing about me or my beliefs and make your judgement based on arrogant prejudice of neo-pagans.

"Paganism" is defined as a rather vague umbrella term, so calling myself "Pagan" is the best fit for my beliefs. That's nothing to do with saying where my beliefs originate from, only where they fit in.

You have no idea what real belief is about, much like most of the people on this forum. You'll fit in wonderfully here.

[qote]No matter if you're a Theosophist; how do you know that what you call Paganism is correct? You may have borrowed the very worst things from each religion in the past.[/quote]

And I may have borrowed the very best. You have no point.



Yes, it's new. Thus the "Neo". Duh.



I don't like your tone. There's no "let's" here. I don't much respect you. You're some some random idiot who jumped into a fight, all guns blazing, who hasn't the faintest idea why the fight started or what's going on in the slightest.



Calling me the self righteous, injured puppy completely and utterly detracts from what I'm saying and is just a sad attempt to detract from the meaning of what I'm saying. I am not fighting for myself, and Deathlypallor certainly is. I'm fighting for what I believe is right, and if you have a problem with that, get bent.

And as I said - it is indeed the Xians who play the "Sick puppy card" - however, they base entire posts around it, which is when it becomes a stupid thing to do. They spend entire posts just saying "You can't tell me what to believe!!1". I actually have reasons, and points.

Your point is, once more, irrelevant.



But it happened. I'm not claiming, but denying things like the crusades, spanish inquisition, puritian movement happened is just madness.



But they don't. They get along just fine. What does that say to you?



And we can, because as a minority, we are still, on occasion, persecuted. But that's not the point of this argument by a long shot. The point is that people are refusing to honour the full extent of the contribution various groups of people made to their favourite holiday and going to desperate extremes to "prove" it.

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Nobody stole Christmas and the Grinch failed. Geez, you guys are starting to bother me with this. Christianity began Christmas and other people have absorbed it as a holiday. That's all it is. This discussion ends NOW.

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NO.

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Clan, it ended with Jitka's "conclusion" way back on page 2.

Ever been to Turkey, China, North Korea, Armenia, or Saudi Arabia?

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Not to mention people daily being called stupid, intolerant, or bigoted for their faith, shunned for it.

That's persecution too.

I think we were talking about the U.S. and "developed" countries rather than 3rd world/screwey ones. I mean, to be fair, they persecute a lot of crazy things in those countries.

In The U.S. and Europe(Turkey is really part of Asia), certainly, Christians are not a persecuted minority.

And it didn't end it with Jitka's conclusion on page 2. No conclusion has been reached on this.

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Well, gee, that's so nice of you to write off an entire series of countries (one of which is the most populated in the world) as 'screwy'.

Generalizations, anyone?

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... no that isn't. Nobody, or at least very few people, will call a Christian stupid, intolerant, or bigoted purely on them being Christian, and certainly nobody I know. They will be called stupid for their inability to debate without falling back on their beliefs as an excuse; intolerant because they do not tolerate other religions, and bigoted for being homophobes; just like ANY other human being in fact.

Now you really are playing an unncessary victim card. In the U.S., you are a majority. It's very hard to persecute a majority.

Maybe in some countries you are persecuted(which is down to something a little different) but you are not those people in those countries. You are in the U.S., and you have a heck of a lot of persecuters "on your side".

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Rose, are you saying that they don't count or what? Considering how many peoples live there that's a pretty..."Off".

EDIT: woah, huge simulpost

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That's not "wrapping it up". That's just what you want to wrap it up because it rules entirely in your favour.

It is completely incorrect because first of all, it's certainly more than "some", and not caring where you got your traditions from means you ARE stealing them, just like claiming a comic book character someone else created as your own is stealing that. That is not closure or final world on this argument, and cannot be for those two reasons.

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They don't count because nobody that I'm aware of on these boards lives in those countries, and we're just talking about the ones we know. But still, it was a throw-away comment, and most certainly Christianity is the "cause" of far, far more persecution than it is at the recieving end. That does not, however, mean that all, or even most Christians are the cause of it, or the only cause of it.

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