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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:02 pm 
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Funny how the endless "stupid little kid" insults stream from you without abatement, isn't it Rose? Funny how you didn't notice that I did say thanks for actually providing links in my reply earlier.

But you've pulled the same thing all over again and declare yourself victrious over it, and liken me to a "stupid little kid." Perhaps you should sit back and study how you constantly berate other people rather than focus on debating--study what you tell them, and see how your own insults apply to yourself.

Almost every ounce of trash talk you've used in this thread has been absolutely uncalled for, yet you keep doing it practically every post. Contrast this to, say, how Cobalt has taken this thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:02 pm 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
Shut up and go back under your bridge, troll.
See? There's the respect issue we talked about earlier.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:03 pm 
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Yes! You're right. I'm not actually Scottish. You just believe that since you're an idiot. I mean, when did I even SAY I was scottish?


[joke]

Scotland, Ireland, same thing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:08 pm 
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Trev-MUN wrote:
Funny how the endless "stupid little kid" insults stream from you without abatement, isn't it Rose? Funny how you didn't notice that I did say thanks for actually providing links in my reply earlier.

But you've pulled the same thing all over again and declare yourself victrious over it, and liken me to a "stupid little kid." Perhaps you should sit back and study how you constantly berate other people rather than focus on debating--study what you tell them, and see how your own insults apply to yourself.

Almost every ounce of trash talk you've used in this thread has been absolutely uncalled for, yet you keep doing it practically every post. Contrast this to, say, how Cobalt has taken this thread.


You're still ignoring the fact that I did actually reply to your post.

Besides, I don't care. I said I was sick of the bible thumpers and this is my reaction. I honestly couldn't care much of what you or anyone else thinks of that past it being an annoyance.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:12 pm 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
Trev-MUN wrote:
Funny how the endless "stupid little kid" insults stream from you without abatement, isn't it Rose? Funny how you didn't notice that I did say thanks for actually providing links in my reply earlier.

But you've pulled the same thing all over again and declare yourself victrious over it, and liken me to a "stupid little kid." Perhaps you should sit back and study how you constantly berate other people rather than focus on debating--study what you tell them, and see how your own insults apply to yourself.

Almost every ounce of trash talk you've used in this thread has been absolutely uncalled for, yet you keep doing it practically every post. Contrast this to, say, how Cobalt has taken this thread.


You're still ignoring the fact that I did actually reply to your post.

Besides, I don't care. I said I was sick of the bible thumpers and this is my reaction. I honestly couldn't care much of what you or anyone else thinks of that past it being an annoyance.


He DID acknowledge the fact that you replied to your post, or, at least it seemed like it in his earlier posts. The personal insults and ad hominem attacks you seem to base the meat of your posts on are not in his reply, so I can see how you could miss it..

BTW: Christian doesn't equal Bible Thumper, no matter how many times you say it..

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:14 pm 
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I'm trying to decide what is considered an insult to pagans. Obviously Rose feels that "Bible-thumper" ought to offend us, so to respond in kind, I wonder what an appropriate label for her would be?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:15 pm 
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Let's not start that; "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:17 pm 
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Purely hypothetical, my friend.

Purely hypothetical.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:20 pm 
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You're right, although I could come up with a few; I won't share them here out of respect.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:24 pm 
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I'm trying to decide what is considered an insult to pagans. Obviously Rose feels that "Bible-thumper" ought to offend us, so to respond in kind, I wonder what an appropriate label for her would be?


I don't think that's necessary at all. Not only is it bad form to stoop to Rosalie's level of respect for the opponent, but I think Rosalie already sees us as being there anyway.

Well, it would seem so at least ... given that the people she considers intolerant of pagans, immature, prideful, egoist, and forcing their beliefs on her would be me, IanTheGecko, Jiktas and whomever else doesn't stand by her soapbox of Christianity being stolen wholesale from pagans, and that Christians are not celebrating any sort of Christian concept on Christmas whatsoever.

Given her almost wild thrashing in response to this thread, I'd guess she finds the idea of multiple holidays on a single date to be anathemic, and therefore thinks that there can be only one ... so, to Rosalie, Christiams MUST celebrate the neopagan Yule, not what we concieve as being Christmas--to suggest otherwise, in any fashion, is to gravely insult her. :/ It's not JUST questioning the widely held belief that Christians stole the idea of Christmas from pagans--not even neopagans, who are largely a smattering of beliefs from various pagan cultures (I got clued by this given how she speaks of both Yule (Scandinavian) and Samhain (Celtic), the names neopagans commonly use for sabbats)--it's the idea of Christians celebrating a holiday on the same date as a pagan's, with their own reasons for doing so.

IantheGecko wrote:
Let's not start that; "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."


While I would agree, apparently we're already to that point. Rosalie's glued one of her eyes shut and blames it on what we've said in this thread, and is chasing us with very sharp knives screaming revenge all the way.

That said ... I really should just shut up, paint the toast, and wait to conitnue debating when someone has a counter or additional stuff to offer as far as what's already been discussed.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:13 am 
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Well, it would seem so at least ... given that the people she considers intolerant of pagans, immature, prideful, egoist, and forcing their beliefs on her would be me, IanTheGecko, Jiktas and whomever else doesn't stand by her soapbox of Christianity being stolen wholesale from pagans, and that Christians are not celebrating any sort of Christian concept on Christmas whatsoever.


And that's why I dislike arguing with you. I may be "angry", but I never, ever put those kind of words in someone's mouth when they've said multiple times that's not what they're saying.

I'm just sick of this rubbish and trying to stand up for myself. I may not be pagan in the old sense but since my beliefs lay in the same pool as theirs and I uphold some of the same traditions, it makes it harder to take.

I wish you kids would listen for once. Nintendoid was pretty right in what he said - and it doesn't surprised me at all he found a gang of Christians who found people's behaviour hear ridiculous.

Like it or not, I've backed up what I've said. Most of the major traditions we associate with the celebration of "Christmas" predate Christianity. That's not really up for debate unless you can offer solid proof to the contrary to counter what I've already shown. The Christian Christmas is only one take on what has become, and debately always was in some ways, a secular celebration. It has it's roots in paganism, but nobody can claim any one "true reason" for the season as Iangecko does. The only reason I believe it was "stolen" is that certain people refuse to acknowledge where most of the tradition comes from.

Christmas, despite the name, is not a Christian holiday. It just got a name and a handful of traditions from Christianity. Christmas is something everyone should enjoy - and having it based on less specific pre-christian tradition makes it so it's non-dogmatic and comfortable for everyone to enjoy. Otherwise, you're forcing people like me to come up with whole new holidays when the people who shared much of my beliefs were the ones that came up with most of it in the first place. That isn't right.

I think I've made my point. It amazes me though, how much you want a villian, how much you want to look persecuted. Not healthy behaviour.

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Last edited by Kittie Rose on Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:17 am 
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JohntheTinyCowboy wrote:
The point is, it doesn't matter where the customs came from. It's what you're celebrating them for.
Missed that, Rosie. Thread over.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:20 am 
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Ah, but still.. without respect for original purpose... what is that called? Theft.

Ah bible thumpers, very much like a slinky. Not really good for anything... but I can't help but smile when I shove them down the stairs!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:21 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
JohntheTinyCowboy wrote:
The point is, it doesn't matter where the customs came from. It's what you're celebrating them for.
Missed that, Rosie. Thread over.


... no, it does matter where they come from otherwise you are just stealing other people's traditions. Stop being a muppet and show some respect.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:22 am 
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Show me some as well; I'm not calling anyone names.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:24 am 
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The reason why she isn't showing you any respect is due to the fact you aren't acknoledging the fact that Christmas traditions were stolen.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:24 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
Show me some as well; I'm not calling anyone names.


I'm not the one stealing other people's traditions and passing them all off as my own. Name calling means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Culture-theft does.

That said, nearly EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts is one of these annoying little "I can never do anything wrong!" pieces. You always push for "Equal recognition!!!" when you're clrearly not ready to "Equally Recognise" a number of things.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:26 am 
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So lets equally recognize the fact that Christmas doesn't have an original aspect about it and that it was all stolen, huh?!

Exactly, you cant... pride goeth before the fall!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:31 am 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
IantheGecko wrote:
Show me some as well; I'm not calling anyone names.


I'm not the one stealing other people's traditions and passing them all off as my own. Name calling means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Culture-theft does.


Ah, strawman shows his face! Call Ian a culture theif, then, everyone will see how you're right.

Ian isn't stealing anyone's traditions.

I seriously doubt the pagans of old would swamp the malls the day after Thanksgiving. I seriously don't think pagans celebrate the birth of Christ by staging "live Nativity", scenes.

While, it IS hard to argue (well for me to argue because I don't know) that Pagans did give gifts as part of the celebration, it cannot be ignored that Christians give gifts in the traditions of the "wise men".

Just because two groups celebrate seperate occasions on the same day in the same way doesn't mean one stole it from the other, unless the Pagans invented gift giving, in which case I fully withdraw from the battle..

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:32 am 
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I will take the point that the origin of the celebration of Christmas is mixed; some traditions came from pagan cultures, and others came from Christian cultures. The pagan traditions, as Jitka pointed out, have been given a new meaning to coincide with Christianity.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:36 am 
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And that's why I dislike arguing with you. I may be "angry", but I never, ever put those kind of words in someone's mouth when they've said multiple times that's not what they're saying.


Yet you said soon after:

Quote:
I'm not the one stealing other people's traditions and passing them all off as my own. Name calling means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Culture-theft does.


*cough*

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:39 am 
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I will take the point that the origin of the celebration of Christmas is mixed; some traditions came from pagan cultures, and others came from Christian cultures. The pagan traditions, as Jitka pointed out, have been given a new meaning to coincide with Christianity.


Sounds like another straw man... that means that the Christians took them, slowly eliminated the culture that took them and replaced it with their own... Stop trying to candy coat it. Blood does not make a good candy coat.

There was no interpretation... there was out and out theft and covering up of the original meaning.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:40 am 
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DeathlyPallor wrote:
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I will take the point that the origin of the celebration of Christmas is mixed; some traditions came from pagan cultures, and others came from Christian cultures. The pagan traditions, as Jitka pointed out, have been given a new meaning to coincide with Christianity.


Sounds like another straw man... that means that the Christians took them, slowly eliminated the culture that took them and replaced it with their own... Stop trying to candy coat it. Blood does not make a good candy coat.

There was no interpretation... there was out and out theft and covering up of the original meaning.

That doesn't really sound strawman-ish, though... He's not accusing someone of something they didn't do in order to declare victory over that thing, and thus, that person..

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:41 am 
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And now we know what the various original meanings are.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:42 am 
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Doesn't look like Christians did that good a job of eliminating the "original meanings" does it?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:44 am 
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The Culture Thief wrote:
And now we know what the various original meanings are.


Then acknowledge it and at least give cred where credit is due... Or just stop using our CENSOR'd and give it back.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:44 am 
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Trev-MUN wrote:
Quote:
And that's why I dislike arguing with you. I may be "angry", but I never, ever put those kind of words in someone's mouth when they've said multiple times that's not what they're saying.


Yet you said soon after:

Quote:
I'm not the one stealing other people's traditions and passing them all off as my own. Name calling means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Culture-theft does.


*cough*


Are you thick or something?

You accused me of saying this - and that Christians are not celebrating any sort of Christian concept on Christmas whatsoever.

Interesting how you didn't quote where I said the SAME THING I SAID EARLIER that negates your claim soon after replying -

Quote:
The Christian Christmas is only one take on what has become, and debately always was in some ways, a secular celebration. It has it's roots in paganism, but nobody can claim any one "true reason" for the season as Iangecko does.


You didn't bother quoting that though, did you?

Quote:
Aptly Named
And now we know what the various original meanings are.


Well you're the one who wants to deny them.

Quote:
Just because two groups celebrate seperate occasions on the same day in the same way doesn't mean one stole it from the other, unless the Pagans invented gift giving, in which case I fully withdraw from the battle..


Yes they did, actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

Quote:
The Romans also practiced many traditions similar to Christmas; specifically the "Christmas tree", though the Christmas tree itself is a later development in the celebration of Christmas (having its origins in Germany, possibly during the Reformation). The Romans often cut down evergreens and decorated them to pay homage to Saturn, the god of farming. This was to honor the fact that the evergreens remained alive during the harshness of winter. It was also traditional for Romans to exchange gifts during this holiday. These gifts were customarily made of silver, although nearly anything could be given as a gift for the occasion.


I think the tradition of using spruce trees as Christmas trees may be Christian; but no doubt Spruce Trees were used by some people(the norse people probably celebrated some form of winter solstice), just not exclusively Spruce as it is nowadays. Personally, I quite like Spruce trees and am comfortable with the fact that the particular tree of choice may be Christian in origin.

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Last edited by Kittie Rose on Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:45 am 
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DeathlyPallor wrote:
The Culture Thief wrote:
And now we know what the various original meanings are.


Then acknowledge it and at least give cred where credit is due...


The Culture Thief wrote:
I will take the point that the origin of the celebration of Christmas is mixed; some traditions came from pagan cultures, and others came from Christian cultures. The pagan traditions, as Jitka pointed out, have been given a new meaning to coincide with Christianity.

sounds like he did, right there.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:46 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
Doesn't look like Christians did that good a job of eliminating the "original meanings" does it?


Did a great job at murdering people in the name of their God and stealing customs as they progressed though.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:49 am 
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DeathlyPallor wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
Doesn't look like Christians did that good a job of eliminating the "original meanings" does it?


Did a great job at murdering people in the name of their God and stealing customs as they progressed though.


If we were as bad as you are trying to make us look, then, my response would be something like "Yep. Doesn't look like they killed enough, though..".

However, that's not the case, so, instead, I will say that "yes, they did, and that's shameful, but Pagans are not saints, themselves"

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