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 Post subject: Suspected Lesbians kicked out of school.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:42 pm 
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/ ... O106.shtml

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Teens Accused of Being Lesbians Sue School

RIVERSIDE, Calif., Dec. 30, 2005
(AP) Two 16-year-olds who were expelled from a Lutheran high school because they were suspected of being lesbians have sued the school for invasion of privacy and discrimination.

The lawsuit, filed last week in Riverside County Superior Court, seeks the girls' re-enrollment at the small California Lutheran High School, unspecified damages and an injunction barring the school from excluding gays and lesbians.

Kirk D. Hanson, an attorney for the girls, said the expulsion traumatized and humiliated them.

"Their entire support network was pulled out from under them because of suspicions about their sexual orientation," said Hanson, who declined to say whether his clients are lesbians.

The school is on Christmas break until next week, and messages left for school officials Thursday were not immediately returned.

The lawsuit alleges that the school's principal, Gregory Bork, called the girls into his office, grilled them on their sexual orientation and "coerced" one girl into saying she loved the other.

The next day, the lawsuit says, Bork told the girls' parents they could not stay at the school with "those feelings." In a Sept. 12 letter to the parents, Bork acknowledged that officials had seen no physical contact between the girls but said their friendship was "uncharacteristic of normal girl relationships and more characteristic of a lesbian one."

"Such a relationship violates our Christian Code of Conduct," Bork wrote in his letter, which was included as an exhibit in the lawsuit. He called the girls' behavior "scandalous" and "immoral."

Hanson said the 142-student school in Wildomar, Calif., must comply with state civil rights laws because it functions as a business by collecting tuition.

"There's a lot of hypocrisy going on here," Hanson said. "The school is claiming the girls were expelled because their conduct wasn't within the Christian code. But at the same time, (the school) has students who aren't Christians and are even Jewish."


Disgusting.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:45 pm 
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It's a private institution. Normal discrimination laws should not apply. Those who run the institution have every right to decide who can and cannot attend. If they wanted to kick all the heterosexuals out and only admit homosexual students, that's fine, too.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:50 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
It's a private institution. Normal discrimination laws should not apply. Those who run the institution have every right to decide who can and cannot attend. If they wanted to kick all the heterosexuals out and only admit homosexual students, that's fine, too.


No, it's not; it is illegal because they take tuiton, read the full article. What you're saying would only apply if it was a "free service", and even then it would be morally wrong even if it wasn't illegal. Why give something to certain people and not others, based on no sound or relevant reasoning? Discrimination is discrimination and for defending that principle you're not really any better than her as you're allowing it to happen.

It is a disgusting display of prejudice and ignorance. It is not "fine".

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:54 pm 
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It is horrid, but it is legal. The law says that a private institution can do whatever it pleases when it comes to admintance. Since it is a private, religous school, they can do as they please.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:57 pm 
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Where is this and why is does sexual orientation even matter? Why even bother sueing them??

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:57 pm 
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Rogue Leader wrote:
It is horrid, but it is legal. The law says that a private institution can do whatever it pleases when it comes to admintance. Since it is a private, religous school, they can do as they please.


No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. Because they took tuition they were operating as a business and businesses have to act under certain guidelines.

"but it's legal" shouldn't be an answer, regardles. "It should be illegal" is a more apt one, though I suspect it already is.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:04 pm 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
Rogue Leader wrote:
It is horrid, but it is legal. The law says that a private institution can do whatever it pleases when it comes to admintance. Since it is a private, religous school, they can do as they please.


No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. Because they took tuition they were operating as a business and businesses have to act under certain guidelines.

"but it's legal" shouldn't be an answer, regardles. "It should be illegal" is a more apt one, though I suspect it already is.

And I am certain that you are wrong. The tuition is the admitance fee into the private organization. This is similar to the Boy Scouts not allowing gay men to be leaders of a troop. Since they are a private organization, and no one is forcing them to go there, the state cannot force the school to do anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:14 pm 
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This depends a lot on state and local laws, but in general Rogue Leader is right--a private institution has no legal obligation to treat everyone equally. There are always exceptions--employers are subject to certain hiring laws, and businesses must comply with handicapped codes, for example, but I've never heard of (which isn't to say there doesn't exist) any state having a law that says private businesses cannot turn away customers (i.e. the school's students) based on sexual orientation. The article is accurate in that the school "must comply with state civil rights laws," but without having read the California Code it's not possible for me to say what those laws are.

That said, I hope the girls win; this sort of thing happens all the time at private schools all over the country, and in my opinion it isn't right. But I suspect the case will come down not to whether or not it's legal to kick out lesbian students, but rather whether or not they were coerced into saying they were lesbians, in which case they'd have been dismissed under false pretenses, which might violate the contract between the parents and the school. If in fact they aren't lesbians, they could always sue for defamation, but that, I think, wouldn't really give them any vindication.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:36 pm 
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Rogue Leader wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
Rogue Leader wrote:
It is horrid, but it is legal. The law says that a private institution can do whatever it pleases when it comes to admintance. Since it is a private, religous school, they can do as they please.


No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. Because they took tuition they were operating as a business and businesses have to act under certain guidelines.

"but it's legal" shouldn't be an answer, regardles. "It should be illegal" is a more apt one, though I suspect it already is.

And I am certain that you are wrong. The tuition is the admitance fee into the private organization. This is similar to the Boy Scouts not allowing gay men to be leaders of a troop. Since they are a private organization, and no one is forcing them to go there, the state cannot force the school to do anything.


Wow, it amazes me quite how primitive and backwards this world is sometimes. I could have sworn we were living in "Modern" times :/

Though wouldn't it depend on state by state laws?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:40 pm 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
Rogue Leader wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
Rogue Leader wrote:
It is horrid, but it is legal. The law says that a private institution can do whatever it pleases when it comes to admintance. Since it is a private, religous school, they can do as they please.


No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. Because they took tuition they were operating as a business and businesses have to act under certain guidelines.

"but it's legal" shouldn't be an answer, regardles. "It should be illegal" is a more apt one, though I suspect it already is.

And I am certain that you are wrong. The tuition is the admitance fee into the private organization. This is similar to the Boy Scouts not allowing gay men to be leaders of a troop. Since they are a private organization, and no one is forcing them to go there, the state cannot force the school to do anything.


Wow, it amazes me quite how primitive and backwards this world is sometimes. I could have sworn we were living in "Modern" times :/

Though wouldn't it depend on state by state laws?

Yes it mainly depends on the state law. But I will guess that the law says that while the act may be dispicible, it is legal.
I hope that the girls will win, but I doubt that they will. Unless they show that they were forced to say that they were lesbian, and they weren't, the school can be sued on a multitude of things.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:52 pm 
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Actually, they were forced "out" as such, but it's still not known if they are lesbians or not.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Well, I do consider it to be wrong, but like most have said it's legal. The principle (if the accusations are true) did go a bit far but, it was his call. But, it's a private(?) school and I doubt the parents paying for their kids to go to some big fancy Lutheran place are going to want Lesbians in there (probably this is where the principle was coming from).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:47 pm 
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What really annoys me is that this is trying to assert that you can't be both Christian and gay, which simply isn't true. You shouldn't force your beliefs on anyone, even if they fall in the same "religion" as yours.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:59 pm 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
What really annoys me is that this is trying to assert that you can't be both Christian and gay, which simply isn't true. You shouldn't force your beliefs on anyone, even if they fall in the same "religion" as yours.


I agree with everything said there. But, as I've said...

Chad Sexington, AKA Cpt. Cool wrote:
it's a private(?) school and I doubt the parents paying for their kids to go to some big fancy Lutheran place are going to want Lesbians in there (probably this is where the principle was coming from).

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:00 am 
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The idea for lesbians to be expelled just 'cause of their sexual orientation's rather stupid.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:31 am 
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If memory serves, which it darn well should, then California is no different than any other US state regarding discrimination laws in private institutions. Private colleges, high schools, etc, must comply with federal laws. Only if the place recieves federal funding would they be subject to further federal laws like Title IX (sex in ed. discrimination).

The burning question I have is why was the principal allowed to question each minor girl alone without their parents present? Why was this principal allowed to interrogate these girls without adult supervision; and furthermore, why was the principal allowed make a unilateral decision with such a limited source of information?

Yay for heavy handed administration in upholding Christian values :P

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:01 am 
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Excuse me, but we should leave this for Johnny Solution Boy/ Johnny The Answer Boy to figure this out. He knows all the answers.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:43 am 
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Clan rHrN wrote:
The idea for lesbians to be expelled just 'cause of their sexual orientation's rather stupid.


Isn't that what we're saying? THat's really rather obvious, no?

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Excuse me, but we should leave this for Johnny Solution Boy/ Johnny The Answer Boy to figure this out. He knows all the answers.


What's that got to do with ANYTHING?

Anyways, I rather thought it was illegal, as discrimination is illegal in general, is it not? Of course, I'm sucky at social studies and the understanding of law, so I could be completley wrong. I was under the impression that discrimination for any reason other than for legal reasons was outlawed.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am 
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No Toppings wrote:
Anyways, I rather thought it was illegal, as discrimination is illegal in general, is it not? Of course, I'm sucky at social studies and the understanding of law, so I could be completley wrong. I was under the impression that discrimination for any reason other than for legal reasons was outlawed.

No, private schools don't get any funding from the government, so as a private they are free to do whatever they want, even if most of America thinks it's unfair. But as a Christian school I think they should be treating everyone equally.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:52 am 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
No Toppings wrote:
Anyways, I rather thought it was illegal, as discrimination is illegal in general, is it not? Of course, I'm sucky at social studies and the understanding of law, so I could be completley wrong. I was under the impression that discrimination for any reason other than for legal reasons was outlawed.

No, private schools don't get any funding from the government, so as a private they are free to do whatever they want, even if most of America thinks it's unfair. But as a Christian school I think they should be treating everyone equally.


I don't see how making it illegal for private schools to expell people based on sexuality, race or other such trifles would actually harm anything. All this "right" is protecting is the right to discriminate. I can't think of any "positive" right that would be harmed by it.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:56 am 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
I don't see how making it illegal for private schools to expell people based on sexuality, race or other such trifles would actually harm anything. All this "right" is protecting is the right to discriminate. I can't think of any "positive" right that would be harmed by it.

Well, not everyone shares the same views on gay rights and stuff, so making it illegal would just give us even less and less freedom.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:24 am 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
I don't see how making it illegal for private schools to expell people based on sexuality, race or other such trifles would actually harm anything. All this "right" is protecting is the right to discriminate. I can't think of any "positive" right that would be harmed by it.

Well, not everyone shares the same views on gay rights and stuff, so making it illegal would just give us even less and less freedom.


Freedom to do what, exactly? Discriminate against gay people?

Oh snaps.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:43 am 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
I don't see how making it illegal for private schools to expell people based on sexuality, race or other such trifles would actually harm anything. All this "right" is protecting is the right to discriminate. I can't think of any "positive" right that would be harmed by it.

Well, not everyone shares the same views on gay rights and stuff, so making it illegal would just give us even less and less freedom.


Freedom to do what, exactly? Discriminate against gay people?

Oh snaps.


Well, ya. If people have the right to accept gays and lebians then they should also have the right to discriminate against them. It's not right to discriminate, but it's a bit hypocritical to say that everyone should accept gays and those who don't are idiots (not aimed at you, just in general).

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:06 am 
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If the girls were lesbian, they shouldn't have even been going to a Lutheran school in the first place. I you are homosexual, why would you go to a school run by people who think that homosexuality is morally wrong and a sin?
Quote:
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Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:08 am 
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Maybe their parents thought private school would "fix" them.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:24 am 
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Christmas Rose wrote:
ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Christmas Rose wrote:
I don't see how making it illegal for private schools to expell people based on sexuality, race or other such trifles would actually harm anything. All this "right" is protecting is the right to discriminate. I can't think of any "positive" right that would be harmed by it.

Well, not everyone shares the same views on gay rights and stuff, so making it illegal would just give us even less and less freedom.


Freedom to do what, exactly? Discriminate against gay people?

Oh snaps.

Yes. Some people have different views on gay rights, like I said. I know most people don't agree with them, but they are a private school so they should be allowed to do that if it's what they believe.
I go to a private Christian school (we are fair to everyone, of course, some students there aren't even Christians). it costs tons of extra money, unlike the public schools, but what I love is since we're more independant we don't have to follow all the rules that public schools must follow. I would hate to ever have that freedom taken away and still have to pay all the extra tuition.

{also see Mr Kiss's post above}

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:37 am 
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I still don't see how it's important for them to have that right. Discrimination is not the same as accpetance. This "right" is being used for nothing but to promote igorance and cause grief. Any unbiased judge could see this.

They caused those girls a lot of pain; you have no idea how they ended up there. Why should they be "allowed" to do that?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:43 am 
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Well, I don't see why it's so important for them to go to this school if they don't believe in what it teaches. Why should the be allowed to force the school into letting them in anyways.

The only reason why I hope they win is because it's a Christian school and if they don't treat everyone equally they aren't exactly being Christian.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:43 am 
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Exhibit A wrote:
If the girls were lesbian, they shouldn't have even been going to a Lutheran school in the first place. I you are homosexual, why would you go to a school run by people who think that homosexuality is morally wrong and a sin?


Not all Christians think that homosexuality is a sin.

Anyway, I do think that it's unfair.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:45 am 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Well, I don't see why it's so important for them to go to this school if they don't believe in what it teaches.


But again, do you know why they were there in the first place?

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Why should the be allowed to force the school into letting them in anyways.


Because it's discrimination otherwise. You can apply the logic you're probably using in your head to public schools.

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