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Same-Sex Marriages
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=647		 Page 14 of 23
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:12 am ]
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Discount Brick wrote:
DID I SAY EVERYONE WAS A CHRISTIAN, NO I JUST SAID I WAS A CHRISTIAN


You were suggesting that same-sex marriages should not be allowed. (I see now that you did not mean this, but I did not realize that yet.) This would affect people who are not Christians. That is why I asked why laws based upon Christianity should apply to non-Christians. Please don't get so upset, I was just trying to make a point.

Quote:
Also I've never met a full fledged gay before, and I didn't say that you should convert gays by saying "you're going straight to hell, you old twisted idiot", no!


I'm sorry, but your attitude very strongly suggested this. It certainly showed lack of respect for other viewpoints.

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You throughly explain to them that being gay is wrong


First, explain why. I'd really like to know.

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I'm not saying they should ban it


Sorry, that didn't come through very well, since saying you're "against gay marriage" usually means you want legislation disallowing it.

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I'm saying that we should stop people from becoming gay! :mad:


What if they can't help whether or not they're gay? We've gone over this before. And you've ignored that, too. Please, contribute to the discussion, rather than just declaring your point of view for all to see. Why do you feel this way? What makes you think "becoming gay" is a choice? Why this, why that? We're interested in the why's here, not the what's.

I realize I've been coming off harsh in these posts, so I'll make you a deal. Show us some respect, and we'll show you some, OK? :)

- Kef
Author:  ThatGoblin [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Discount Brick wrote:
DID I SAY EVERYONE WAS A CHRISTIAN, NO I JUST SAID I WAS A CHRISTIAN Also I've never met a full fledged gay before, and I didn't say that you should convert gays by saying "you're going straight to hell, you old twisted idiot", no! You throughly explain to them that being gay is wrong, I'm not saying they should ban it, I'm saying that we should stop people from becoming gay! :mad:


Now that is an example of why I don't post here.

In my opinion, I don't see a reason why we shouldn't allow Same Sex Marriages. It's their choice! You can't make anyone do anything. It's as simple as that. No matter how much you tell them not to, they will choose themselves if they wish to be gay. You can't force them.
Author:  Ricksea [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:27 pm ]
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I've been reading this thread off-and-on for about a month now, and I finally get to post!

Dr. Zaius wrote:
Let me take your suggestion one further; remove ALL legalities from marriage. Marriage will no longer be a legally binding [sic] contract, [sic] all that stuff will be in the form of a civil union. Marriage will be completely up to the church/synagogue/mosque/whatever. [sic]All the ceremonial aspects will be conducted by the clergy [sic], and if they so choose to wed two members of the same sex, so be it. Civil unions will be available to all, but will be obtained like it's a fishing license. If a couple wants their union to be "special", they can get married. Simple as that.


This is the most logical thing I've seen on this thread. It would make civil union available to all homosexuals, and if we wanted to get married we could through the Unitarian church (or Judaism).

evin290 wrote:
People have different theological beliefs and that is why no conclusion will be found.


I disagree with this statement. This torment of homosexual bias is just like segregation in the fifties; people are completely disrespectful of others, just because they’re different.

Some think that homosexuality is a different story because it is looked down upon in The Bible. The bible was written at a time when society was different, and people were too. It’s good to have a guideline to live by, but not to the point where you’re oppressing other people for not following your rules. Besides, we should be worrying less about our petty differences, and more about global issues, like hunger and poverty. (I don’t mean on this forum, but in general.) It’s time for a change.

We, who have access to a computer, are the richest 6% of the world, and gay marraige is even an issue? It sickens me, but I have hope. I have hope that someday; very soon, America will realize that I, with 11% of the world, have no choice but to be gay. We talk just like you; we look just like you; we eat, sleep, breath, and even act just like you. Don’t we deserve the same marital rights as you?
Author:  T-Smash [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:36 pm ]
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I think that no person who plans claims to be Christian should support gay/lesbian marriage. After all, it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. :)

Gays aren't looked down upon by the Christian religion. Some people can't help that they are gay, and that is okay. But, it doesn't mean that they can have a relationship with someone of their same sex. They can be really good friends and live with that person, but they will never have the same love a husband and wife share between eachother. Marriage is a sacred thing, and should only happen between a man and a woman.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
T-Smash wrote:
I think that no person who plans claims to be Christian should support gay/lesbian marriage. After all, it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. :)


Of course, if it were Adam and Steve, they wouldn't have had children and we wouldn't be here. So there's a very good reason it was Adam and Eve that has nothing at all to do with morals or anything of that sort whatsoever. ;)

Quote:
They can be really good friends and live with that person, but they will never have the same love a husband and wife share between eachother.


I'm sure millions of people would disagree with you -- and I'm one of them, because of the simple fact that I've seen it happen.

Quote:
Marriage is a sacred thing, and should only happen between a man and a woman.


But do you think legislation should enforce that belief?

- Kef
Author:  T-Smash [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:44 pm ]
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furrykef wrote:
T-Smash wrote:
I think that no person who plans claims to be Christian should support gay/lesbian marriage. After all, it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. :)


Of course, if it were Adam and Steve, they wouldn't have had children and we wouldn't be here. So there's a very good reason it was Adam and Eve that has nothing at all to do with morals or anything of that sort whatsoever. ;)


I know that. I'm just saying that it wasn't God's plan to have the same sex get married.

furrykef wrote:
Quote:
Marriage is a sacred thing, and should only happen between a man and a woman.


But do you think legislation should enforce that belief?


Well, yes, since our country is after all "One Nation Under God"
Author:  Ricksea [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
T-Smash wrote:
Some people can't help that they are gay, and that is okay. But, it doesn't mean that they can have a relationship with someone of their same sex. They can be really good friends and live with that person, but they will never have the same love a husband and wife share between eachother.


What?!?!?! I'm sorry but you're completely wrong. Homosexuals share relationships and fall in love in the same respect as heterosexuals. Where do you get the idea that we have no love life?
Author:  T-Smash [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ricksea wrote:
T-Smash wrote:
Some people can't help that they are gay, and that is okay. But, it doesn't mean that they can have a relationship with someone of their same sex. They can be really good friends and live with that person, but they will never have the same love a husband and wife share between eachother.


What?!?!?! I'm sorry but you're completely wrong. Homosexuals share relationships and fall in love in the same respect as heterosexuals. Where do you get the idea that we have no love life?


So "we" meaning that you're homosexual as well? Just wondering.

No, I didn't say that you had no love life. I'm just saying that it's not the same thing as what a man feels for a woman.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
furrykef wrote:
Quote:
Marriage is a sacred thing, and should only happen between a man and a woman.


But do you think legislation should enforce that belief?


Well, yes, since our country is after all "One Nation Under God"


It's also a nation with separation of church and state written into its Constitution. And remember that the phrase "under God" wasn't even added into the Pledge of Allegiance until June 14, 1954, and it was added for political reasons (the Cold War, to distinguish the U.S. from the atheistic Soviet Union). And the court has seemed to made up its mind that it doesn't constitute sponshoship of religion; it's a token, general notion of God, not necessarily God as he is in the Bible. Otherwise, it'd be a violation of the Constitution. Somebody's own personal "God" might embrace gay marriage with open arms for all you know.

The truth is, the United States is a secular nation, and the Founding Fathers were for the most part members of the Enlightenment. This can be seen all throughout their writings of the time, including the Constitution. Yes, the majority of the people in the U.S. are Christians, but that does not make it a Christian nation. The government itself has decided to distance itself from religion, and I think this idea should extend to any government-sponsored notions of "marriage" or "civil unions".

- Kef
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
T-Smash wrote:
No, I didn't say that you had no love life. I'm just saying that it's not the same thing as what a man feels for a woman.


By the way, I'm curious. Since you're not gay, how could you possibly know this?
Author:  T-Smash [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:04 pm ]
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Because the gift of sexual intercourse doesn't apply to marriages of the same sex. There is no reproduction going on between two males or two females.

Genesis 3:16 wrote:
Upon woman He said...thou shalt bring forth children.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:06 pm ]
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So what? How does the ability to procreate change how they feel about each other? If they want a kid, they can adopt one, and many do.
Author:  T-Smash [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's kind of hard to explain. Gay love isn't genuine love. Since love was originally between a male and female, and that's how it was meant to be, then it isn't the same. Sure, gay people can love their partner, but it will never be quite like what a man feels for a woman or a woman for a man.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
T-Smash wrote:
It's kind of hard to explain. Gay love isn't genuine love. Since love was originally between a male and female, and that's how it was meant to be, then it isn't the same. Sure, gay people can love their partner, but it will never be quite like what a man feels for a woman or a woman for a man.


But you haven't been, and can't be, put into a situation where you might be shown that maybe you can feel that way. I mean, at one time people thought a black person couldn't feel genuine love toward a white person. They didn't know what being a black person is like, so it was easy for them to arrive at that conclusion. I mean, there are no white supremacists who aren't white. There are no black supremacists who aren't black. People tend to think that their point of view is right and that their way of doing things is the best, and that this is so should be obvious to everybody. And they think that way because they don't know what it's like to be those other people.

Don't take that analogy too far and think I'm comparing you to a racist. I'm just saying that it's easy for you to make such an assessment because you have no clue what it's like.

Moreover, I don't think what love was "meant" to be has any bearing on how two people actually feel about each other. Love is an emotional, sensual kind of thing. It's not like in the programming of the universe, there's something like this:

Code:
IF person1.sex IS NOT person2.sex THEN
    love = TRUE
ELSE
    love = FALSE


In short, I think it doesn't even matter what was meant to be. What was meant to be is in the past. What two people feel about each other is now, it's the present, it's the reality.

- Kef
Author:  Ricksea [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
T-Smash wrote:
So "we" meaning that you're homosexual as well? Just wondering.

No, I didn't say that you had no love life. I'm just saying that it's not the same thing as what a man feels for a woman.


1. Yes, I'm homosexual, I thought I made that clear in my first post on this thread.

2. Homosexual love is just as great as heterosexual love. Saying that straight love is better because it is original (supposing it is original) is like saying an original recipe is better than a new recipe. Some like the original; some like the new, but there's no way that those who like the original recipe like the dish better than those who like the new one. It just makes no sense.
Author:  Discount Brick [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:


DID I SAY EVERYONE WAS A CHRISTIAN, NO I JUST SAID I WAS A CHRISTIAN Also I've never met a full fledged gay before, and I didn't say that you should convert gays by saying "you're going straight to hell, you old twisted idiot", no! You throughly explain to them that being gay is wrong, I'm not saying they should ban it, I'm saying that we should stop people from becoming gay! :mad:

Quote:
Now that is an example of why I don't post here.

In my opinion, I don't see a reason why we shouldn't allow Same Sex Marriages. It's their choice! You can't make anyone do anything. It's as simple as that. No matter how much you tell them not to, they will choose themselves if they wish to be gay. You can't force them.



I didn't mean we force it, I'm just saying that I believe homosexualty is not very right, and that we should teach people at an early age that it's not right.(no offence, rosea)
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Discount Brick wrote:
I didn't mean we force it, I'm just saying that I believe homosexualty is not very right, and that we should teach people at an early age that it's not right.(no offence, rosea)


You still haven't told us what makes it wrong (tell me where the Bible seems to say so, and I'll pick it apart), nor what makes you, your religion, etc. so obviously right that we should tell everybody in the world about this great point of view that cannot possibly be wrong.

- Kef
Author:  Discount Brick [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:27 pm ]
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The part where god created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
AGAIN you're ignoring what I've said. I just answered that a few posts ago, and you've contributed nothing new!

Have you listened to nothing I've said? Please, pay attention to the discussion. :|
Author:  Discount Brick [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok, should I say "cows don't like it" is that what you want me say, huh?!
I just friggin said what part of the Bible it was, I ansered your friggin question!
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Discount Brick wrote:
Ok, should I say "cows don't like it" is that what you want me say, huh?!


Calm down. I just tire of you ignoring stuff we've already been over. Is that so unreasonable?

Quote:
I just friggin said what part of the Bible it was, I ansered your friggin question!


No, you didn't. Just because God created Adam and Eve as male and female doesn't mean that any other kind of relationship is wrong. It means God created Adam and Eve as male and female. That's all it means. And I've said that, or at least implied it. I also said if it were Adam and Steve, they would not have procreated and we would not have been born, so there's a very good reason that it was Adam and Eve that has nothing whatsoever to do with morals. This is why I was annoyed that you ignored it, because I had to say it again for no reason, and I'm not going to proceed until you answer that point. That's how debate works.

- Kef
Author:  Discount Brick [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:05 pm ]
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Ohh, good point, I just didn't read the rest of the topic.
Author:  ModestlyHotGirl [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:18 pm ]
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This doesn't necessarily contribute to the debate, and for that I apologize, but I just wanted to remind everyone (Read: Discount Brick) that this is a civilized debate, not an argument. We don't need to use large fonts, or pseudo-swears, or anything. Just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view doesn't mean you can yell at them.

Second: Kudos to Ricksea for "coming out" in such a sensitive topic, and on a forum that (unfortunately) appears to be pretty anti-gay. Congrats, Rick. You're tougher'n anyone else on this forum.
Author:  T-Smash [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
ModestlyHotGirl wrote:
Kudos to Ricksea for "coming out" in such a sensitive topic, and on a forum that (unfortunately) appears to be pretty anti-gay.

Anti Gay? How so?
Author:  Discount Brick [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
This doesn't necessarily contribute to the debate, and for that I apologize, but I just wanted to remind everyone (Read: Discount Brick) that this is a civilized debate, not an argument. We don't need to use large fonts, or pseudo-swears, or anything. Just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view doesn't mean you can yell at them.

Second: Kudos to Ricksea for "coming out" in such a sensitive topic, and on a forum that (unfortunately) appears to be pretty anti-gay. Congrats, Rick. You're tougher'n anyone else on this forum.

Sorry, I was just mad because people were reading it wrong.(When I reread furrykef's post, I saw that he was in a as threating as Ithought he was)
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
ModestlyHotGirl wrote:
Second: Kudos to Ricksea for "coming out" in such a sensitive topic, and on a forum that (unfortunately) appears to be pretty anti-gay.


It isn't, really, as far as I know. It just may seem that way since we tend to keep the debate going.

- Kef
Author:  Evin290 [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Ricksea wrote:
evin290 wrote:
People have different theological beliefs and that is why no conclusion will be found.


I disagree with this statement. This torment of homosexual bias is just like segregation in the fifties; people are completely disrespectful of others, just because they’re different.


Oh, I totally agree. I just meant in terms of marriage. Most people atleast SAY it's because of their theological beliefs but it is probably just because of their biases.

Ricksea wrote:
Homosexual love is just as great as heterosexual love. Saying that straight love is better because it is original (supposing it is original) is like saying an original recipe is better than a new recipe. Some like the original; some like the new, but there's no way that those who like the original recipe like the dish better than those who like the new one. It just makes no sense.


I couldn't agree more with that one there. People who think that homosexuality can't be as good as heterosexuality because it isn't "what God intended" is in my mind just a load of bull crap. Who on earth knows what God intended? Nobody! The Bible is just one interpretation.

Oh, and T-Smash, there's no possible way for you to know how others feel. If someone loves someone of the same sex, it doesn't matter how the world was "originally designed." It's still genuine love.
Author:  ModestlyHotGirl [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Okay, defending my "anti-gay" statement: I realize that this forum isn't predominantly anti-gay, nor are the people who oppose homosexuality at all rude about it (in most instances). I guess I was just worked up when I posted that. Anyway, I just meant to convey that I think it's great that Ricksea can be open and honest about who he is.
Author:  Dr. Zaius [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:01 am ]
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Discount Brick, the whole Adam and Eve story is COMPLETELY FALSE! You know why? Because if humanity stemmed from two individuals, by the 8th generation, everyone would be so inbred, they wouldn't be able to know where to properly go to the bathroom, let alone build and manage civilizations...

I may not be a biblical expert like Didymus, but it's obvious that I know more about the bible than you do. There are a good number of passages where it clearly says homosexuality is wrong, but you seemed to pick something that had NOTHING to do with it. Genesis is supposed to be a nice little story on how all that is was made, not lay down rules of living...

Bah, too many posts to comment on since my last visit here, so I'll just leave it at that...
Author:  Evin290 [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, Didymus studied the Bible and you didn't. The way some modern theists explain how nobody was inbred during Genesis is supposedly because God had given them all "perfect DNA" which he revoked once there were enough people. I don't believe any of that, but that's the explanation they give.
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