Court Case over the Existence of Christ

StrongRad · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:57 am

Lahi, this was a semi-civil debate. If you don't have anything to add, don't try.

Cobalt, dying and coming back to life 3 days later might not make you the son of God, but ya gotta admit, that is a pretty neat trick.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:11 am

I do have something to add.

A reminder to those involved in this discussion that you can't prove a negative. Anyone who says they know that Jesus absolutely did not live, do miracles, or resurrect, is lying.

That is all.

Jello B. · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:16 am

lahimatoa wrote:

I do have something to add.

A reminder to those involved in this discussion that you can't prove a negative. Anyone who says they know that Jesus absolutely did not live, do miracles, or resurrect, is lying.

That is all.

A reminder to the rest of you, anyone who says they know that Jesus absolutely lived, did miracles, and resurrect is false.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:21 am

Quote:

A reminder to the rest of you, anyone who says they know that Jesus absolutely lived, did miracles, and resurrect is false.

Bingo.

That's what faith is all about.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:23 am

lahimatoa wrote:

I do have something to add.

A reminder to those involved in this discussion that you can't prove a negative. Anyone who says they know that Jesus absolutely did not live, do miracles, or resurrect, is lying.

That is all.

That's not entirely true.. If two events are mutually exclusive and you prove that one happened, you've proven the other didn't.

Still, I don't think Christ's existence can be disproven.

I don't know that it can be proven, right now, on Earth, either.

Still, nobody has to prove it to me. I know he existed. I know he died, and I know he was resurrected.

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

fine, then: i am quite confident that Jesus did not come back from the dead. but even if he did, it's a neat trick but it doesn't mean anything.

Didymus · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:31 pm

It doesn't mean anything except that he is, as he claimed to be, the Resurrection and the Life. While I might believe that simple magic tricks like turning staves into snakes might be within the power of ordinary magicians, dying and rising form the dead seems to me something that could only be accomplished by the power of the true God.

Kittie Rose · **Joined:** Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:24 pm **Posts:** 544

lahimatoa wrote:

I do have something to add.

A reminder to those involved in this discussion that you can't prove a negative. Anyone who says they know that Jesus absolutely did not live, do miracles, or resurrect, is lying.

That is all.

And anyone who says that Jesus absolutely DID live, do miracles, and ressurect, is also lying, by the same logic.

Not to mention that going by what we KNOW and have proven about the world it's unlikely that it did happen, and that common sense dictates that even if it did, it doesn't make him the son of god.

Man, Spider-man must have great fun with that.

"I'm the son of god".
"Prove it."
*shoots a web*
"Whoa."

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

Didymus wrote:

It doesn't mean anything except that he is, as he claimed to be, the Resurrection and the Life. While I might believe that simple magic tricks like turning staves into snakes might be within the power of ordinary magicians, dying and rising form the dead seems to me something that could only be accomplished by the power of the true God.

i disagree.

the prophets Ezekiel and Elisha raised people from the dead, and Elijah never even died, but ascended to heaven alive. that seems more impressive than dying and coming back to life, as far as i'm concerned, but nobody in the world says that Elijah must have been God Himself to accomplish it.

Prof. Tor Coolguy · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:20 pm

IantheGecko wrote:

This guy in Italy is taking a priest to court to prove the existence of Christ because he says that the church is breaking the law by teaching that Christ existed. Here's the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/04/italy.jesus.reut/

Crazy, isn't it? I think the fact that Jesus' existence being ruled in court is another sign of the end of the world.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, I'd say that guy's a wacko though.

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:40 pm

Kittie Rose wrote:

And anyone who says that Jesus absolutely DID live, do miracles, and ressurect, is also lying, by the same logic.

Not to mention that going by what we KNOW and have proven about the world it's unlikely that it did happen, and that common sense dictates that even if it did, it doesn't make him the son of god.

What we do know and have shown that he most likely did exist, and did do miracles (non-Christians just claim it was 'black magic'). I'm not talking about from the Bible. From non-Christian sources as well.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:06 pm

Quote:

Not to mention that going by what we KNOW and have proven about the world it's unlikely that it did happen, and that common sense dictates that even if it did, it doesn't make him the son of god.

It really annoys me when people try to define the tenets of another's faith. If you're not Christian, don't tell me what made Jesus the Son of God or not. I don't try to weigh in on the doctrines of paganism, because I don't believe it.

Acekirby · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:20 pm

Cobalt wrote:

The prophets Ezekiel and Elisha raised people from the dead, and Elijah never even died, but ascended to heaven alive. that seems more impressive than dying and coming back to life, as far as i'm concerned, but nobody in the world says that Elijah must have been God Himself to accomplish it.

Eh, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that you dying and coming back to life under your own power is much more impressive than raising someone else from the dead. Modern doctors today can "raise" someone who has been declared dead, but no one has been dead for three days and returned under their own power.

Not really part of my point, but I wanted to throw this in here for whatever reason. Mary also ascended to heaven alive.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:24 pm

Quote:

Mary also ascended to heaven alive.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that? The Bible doesn't have any account of this event taking place as far as I know.

Acekirby · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:39 pm

lahimatoa wrote:

Quote:

Mary also ascended to heaven alive.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that? The Bible doesn't have any account of this event taking place as far as I know.

In my Catholic school, we've been taught that sometime after Jesus ascended into heaven, Mary did as well, after helping the Apostle's get their act together. The event is known as "The Assumption of Mary".

Odd. I thought it was in the Bible....strange that it isn't...

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:40 pm

Cobalt, are you familliar with / believe in the prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all those books? We believe he's God because he fullfilled all those prophecies, not just 'cause he died and came back to life.

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

ed 'lim' smilde wrote:

Cobalt, are you familliar with / believe in the prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all those books? We believe he's God because he fullfilled all those prophecies, not just 'cause he died and came back to life.

actually Jesus didn't fulfill any of the prophecies that the messiah is supposed to fulfill. if he had fulfilled them, well, we wouldn't be arguing about it now. when the messiah comes, nobody is going to need convincing.

besides which, the messiah is not supposed to be God anyway, that's a completely foreign (pagan) concept and is nonsensical and heretical from a Jewish perspective (which IS the perspective from which the prophecies would have to be fulfilled, since they are Jewish prophecies, after all). the Jews didn't reject Jesus because they're really stupid and don't know their own prophecies; they rejected him because they DO know the prophecies and Jesus simply failed to fulfill any of them.

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:48 am

What about Isaiah 7:14? If that's not a prophecy, then what IS it?

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

sure, Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy. it has nothing to do with Jesus, though. it's not even about the messiah at all.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:22 am

Do you even believe that the Old Testament is the word of God, Cobalt?

Because if not, this argument is pointless.

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

i do, yeah. i'm a Jew; that's our whole deal.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:38 am

Okay. So then you believe the Messiah has not come yet. Are you watching for him? What signs are you searching for?

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

i've got an eye open, but really i try not to be too concerned about the messiah. he'll come when he comes. it's my job to live my life as best i can, whether he shows up in my lifetime or not.

that said, here's a nice encapsulation of some of the ways you'll be able to tell if someone is the messiah. this is from the Rambam, one of the most esteemed Jewish authorities in history:

Quote:

If a king will arise from the House of David who is learned in Torah and observant of the mitzvot [the Torah's commandments], as prescribed by the written law and the oral law, as David his ancestor was, and will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and reinforce the breaches [in its observance]; and fight the wars of G-d, we may, with assurance, consider him the Messiah.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Messiah. ...

If he did not succeed to this degree or he was killed, he surely is not [the redeemer] promised by the Torah.

Do not imagine that the anointed King must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign...

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:55 am

When did Rabmam teach this? In other words, how old is this prophecy?

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

this isn't a prophecy, it's an explanation of what the prophecies regarding the messiah teach. he wasn't a prophet, just a rabbi and codifier of the law. Rambam wrote in the late Twelfth Century CE.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:04 am

Ahh. Okay. Thanks for answering my questions.

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

anytime!

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:51 pm

So when was this 'explaination of prophecies' written?

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:08 pm

Quote:

In my Catholic school, we've been taught that sometime after Jesus ascended into heaven, Mary did as well, after helping the Apostle's get their act together. The event is known as "The Assumption of Mary".

Odd. I thought it was in the Bible....strange that it isn't...

The Assumption of Mary is a legend, and not one that has been universally accepted by historic Roman Catholicism. Why, even as late as the Renaissance, there was artwork portraying Mary's death. In fact, the Assumption was only declared dogma sometime in the 18th century I think.

As for whether Jesus was the messiah, I'm not so certain that a 12th century rabbi is much of an expert on the subject, at least not much more of one than the apostles who followed our Lord.

And what of Isaiah 9:6-7?

Isaiah wrote:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Cobalt · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm **Posts:** 269

ed 'lim' smilde wrote:

So when was this 'explaination of prophecies' written?

12th Century, like i said. but it's only a codification of what everyone already knew.

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