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And this is where the problem begins. And of course you wouldn't, it's your job. You wouldn't get paid without it.



No. If they want to go to a church and receive it, they can. But, I don't go around touting my religion and trying to proselytize.



But due to the naievete of some of the bible thumpers I've seen, they often times choose the wrong moments to thrust religion onto someone. You should actually take heed to what cobalt says.



You are failing to see one aspect of it here. Many people will see your concern as a false front to preaching. Save your sermon for on Sunday, preacher man.



I see it as fair to say that it is a foolish idea and a pointless risk. That is why I said the things I did.



Plus, if he wanted to start a ministry so bad... why doesn't he just go to seminary and do it that way? He'd be saving a lot of people headaches and perhaps saving himself from a serious beating.

I am also taking this from the standpoint of an ex-Christian (technically ex-Catholic), and a non christian that has had to endure many people trying to "witness" to me... Frankly, I don't care what religion your are, just don't shove it down my throat.

I'm not doing that to you, nor are the people in the club forcing you to drink, so I think you should show them that courtesy by leaving them alone.

But why say this without also asking this as well. I have observed this from a standpoint that allows me to see that you are trying to forward your faith and increase your numbers, but I am also seeing it on the standpoint that you are vicitimizing people and making them feel less than what they really are to try and get them to be part of your religion. That alone is a low tactic... very low.

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Who says I have to go to seminary? I'm a Christian; it's my duty to minister to people.

I wouldn't shove it down anyone's throat. If someone doesn't wanna listen, I'll let that person be.

Besides, this ministry's idea isn't to Bible-thump, just to help out anyone who is in need of any kind of assistance. Every single one of us is able to be in contact with someone's moment of pain or moment of need and just extend love and truth to them.

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You just contradicted yourself. By saying it is your duty to minister people, you are technically saying that you would preach to people (thusly, shoving it down their throats).



No group of this nature thinks they bible-thump. But, going to clubs and doing such a thing is just that; bible-thumping.



Perhaps it's true to you, but not everyone is going to be swayed. Plus, the bible is not meant to be a band-aid. Plus, exploiting people in their moments of need is also low. You telling people about religion does not solve their problems. Sure, you may be seeing it as an out and a solution for them, but in all actuality, it is a detractor to keep them from their real problems. Preaching in such a manner is disingenuous and deceptive.

If you want to be so nice to people, just be nice to them without putting religion into it, because it's a quick way to make enemies. Thusly, the reason why I don't proselytize. That and I don't want to appear as crass as the opposition.

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Pallor, you're making it sound like Ian is going to walk in and start hurling "hellfire and brimstone" at all of the "evil heathen"..

There's a difference between letting someone know that there's help for them and what you're saying.

I don't see this as forcing religion on anyone. If they say "no" or "leave me alone", you walk away.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

It's not exploitation! It's helping someone in his/her moment of need.

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I already know that he isn't going to do the fire and brimstone tactic. The vatican doesn't even do that. But the fact that he is disrupting someone's evening is crass. And with the intention of proselytizing whilst wearing a mask good intention just makes things worse.

If you approach someone with that 3 step process that he mentioned (which I've had people do dozens of times in the past...), it will put forth the idea that they are preaching to them and be irritating.

There is a time and a place for everything. And in a club is not the right time.

Then make it not exploitation by not preaching to them there... simple as that. There is a such thing as being nice without having there be an ulterior motive of converting those who you show your graciousness to.

Perhaps, since you are a christian, you fail to see where this can be considered as irritating and explotative. I don't know if you have been on the receiving end of one of these "testimonials," but I have more times than I thought would be possible. And I just wanted to bring to light the viewpoint of those who get preached to and how victimizing preaching to people (or that p.c. term you use for it... "witnessing" I suppose...). Also, how annoying it gets when you get approached.



Also, by enacting this tactic, you are not letting people be. As I said, and as Cobalt said, this is an aggressive tactic that is crass and intrusive.

As I've said time and time again, everyone know what Christianity is, and if they wish to seek it, they can go to one of the many churches in their area and don't need your input because the ideals of christianity are common knowledge.

And, *gasp* what if they don't choose christianity?! I am not a christian, and I am very content with the path I have set for myself.

Yet, somehow, bible-thumpers my age always find some way to try and push it onto me. Such aggressive and forceful tactics are not the way to earn followers, or gain allies.

By preaching to someone who is depressed at a club, you are just going to make things worse by going in there with such an attitude. More than likely, they will be happy to talk to you until you start throwing God in there. How do I know this? I've had bible-thumpers do this to me. Not a club, but at school. I know this, I wouldn't want to be accepted by a group of people that would only accept me because I followed a specific religion. That is shallow and utterly pathetic.

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You're totally missing the point. Glow wouldn't be a ministry for people who are just sitting at the bar & drinking; it would be for people who are having a rough night. Why ruin someone's evening if they're having a good time?

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If they are having a rough night, use common sense! Chances are that they will be incredibly irritable after a few. I've seen my share of angry drunks, and plenty of them over the past weekend. I'm just telling you that your tactic is going to ultimately end up in failure because to many people are going to tell you to back off.

But, going in there with the ulterior motive of having a ministry behind it is putting up a false front. You can be as nice as you like to them, but start putting religion into the picture and people will start to see it for what it really is...a method of conversion.

I've always seen ministries prey on people like this. And as I said, the idea of only accpeting someone and giving them continued acquaintance only if they join up is shallow... ugly... superficial. I mean, if someone has to change religions in order to gain acceptance without judgment from you... that's just sick.

Plus, such methods can be seen as judgment. If you go around a club and look at someone who you see as in "need" of this speech, and further go into conversation and start on religion, thusly implying that they were living wrongly, that is judgment. And I'm sure you know Matthew 7:1 (Judge Not Lest Thee Be Judged). And most people will see it as a "you think you're better than me speech."

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DP, just quit bashing me. I'm just going to pretend you're right & leave you alone.

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You consider it bashing? No, I'm being honest. People won't want to deal with this kind of thing at a club. In a church maybe, but that is about it. All I am saying is that in general, this kind of proselytizing is intrusive on people. It makes you come acrossed as a zealot, and by saying what you just said, you just proved yourself as one.

I believe you should heed the criticisms that Cobalt has said, and that I have said. If you are considering my honesty as bashing, then you are blinded by your own zeal.

And by those words, you have already proven the motive of your ministry. Your impatience has proven you to want to do nothing but hide your motive of converting people behind false courtesy. I truly pity you...

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You kept on telling me in this thread about how I should leave people alone in a bar. Why can't you just leave me alone here? Just because you say this might be a bad idea doesn't make it so.

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I also wanted to get acrossed how it feels to have religion presented to you when you don't want it. It's very discomforting. I'm also saying that there is a time and a place for everything. And that I am saying that proselytizing to people in the state of intoxication is wringbecause they aren't necessarily thinking straight. People are impressionable when they imbibe alcohol, and if you are to take advantage of that, then that is sick!

Christianity is not the only path to enlightenment... and saying it is zealotous. That is another thing that puts people off, is the undue judgment wrought from the "witnessing"... the vibe of "Look at me, I'm so great..." given off is upsetting to most people.

Sure... consider my opinion as pasé because I am not a christian. That only makes it more evident of your passing undue judgment.

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How is witnessing a "Look at me, I'm so great" tactic?

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The way a person on the receiving end would see it would be as follows... If you present your story and how god touched you in such a way, they will interpret it as "I'm good, you're bad because you aren't a christian."

As I said a million times before... this tactic makes it look as if you are looking down on them. Nobody wants to be looked down upon. Nor do they want to be recipient to preaching (face it... witnessing is preaching no matter how much you candy coat it, it's still trying to thrust forward a religion, thus it is preaching) outside of a church.

Not because I'm not a christian, because I've seen people get continuously pestered by them... and I am not actually talking about myself this time (although it still happens to me... they can't take a hint.) All witnessing does is beat a dead horse and scrutinize and victimize people for not believing the way you do. A lot more is said with the words you don't say when you talk about that kind of thing to people. But generally, presented kindly or not, it will still be seen as preaching. I frankly could care less if you are christian, just save the preaching for in chruch.

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Then please leave this topic so other people can present their views on this. You don't represent the entire forum.

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nobody is prevented from contributing their opinions by DeathlyPallor's contributions. there's room for everyone here, i think.

I represent myself.

Stop dodging the subject. Someone had to play devil's advocate. Also, you still don't seem to understand how negative preaching to people outside of a church really is. You obviously wouldn't know how it feels to have someone come up to you and question your spirituality while you are trying to go to class or go along with your daily life.

And thinking that you aren't upsetting people by doing this is sheer idiocy.

It feels like they look upon you as though you are subhuman because you don't believe the way they do. And what does preaching in a club or a bar do, evens the odds of having people buy into it because they've had a few drinks in their system, so they are more susceptable to suggestion.

Cobalt - Exactly. I'm not tying people's hands down. They can post if they wish.

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The same way it feels to have someone come up to you and question your spiritual life when you are trying to start a ministry?

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You missed the point entirely. Nobody is a victim here. I'm not questioning his faith as a christian... I'm questioning his methods.

Which his methods are intrusive (because going to a club and preaching...witnessing...whatever you call it now a days is not where people want to hear about religion)and possibly a health risk to his person (due to the fact that if he tries it on the wrong person, he could go from witness to ICU in 3 seconds flat.)

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If it's any consolation to you, DP, I'm likely not going to start this ministry for a few years, since I'm not even old enough to get into most clubs. And I'm not afraid to die.

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Second of all, I also want to present a standpoint from a Non-Chrsitian perspective. I would see someone preaching to me at a club as invading my privacy because my spirituality is nobody's business but my own. And I would not want to have to worry about being apporached by someone like that at a club, or anywhere for that matter.

As I said, spirituality is a personal thing and preaching to people outside of a church and trying to be nice to them with the ulterior motive of proselytizing is just wrong. It's giving off the vibe that you look down upon non-Christians when you shouldn't. It doesn't matter what you say to justify it, it will always give off that vibe because you are calling someone's ideals into question in a position where they are not prepared to defend themselves (such as a club.) Don't you see that springing this one someone is just unfair to them? Especially after a drink or two? This is the preadator-prey aspect I've been putting forth.

The fact that you don't care about whether or not you are bothering people shows that the only thing this ministry cares for at its root is converting people.

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If someone doesn't want to listen, I'll just leave him or her alone & talk to someone else. Besides, what about when I'm at an event with kids who are too young to drink?

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Then you shouldn't force it on those who are too young to know that there are other paths out there. Explotation of youth... just like the tobacco companies. Get 'em while they're young!

And don't tell me that you are opening up an option to them. Your idea of the option is already spread out all over the place. I see churches everywhere. It's not like you need to tell them that. If they want to be preached to, they will be preached to when they are good and ready... and that isn't at a club or anything either. It's at church. Time and a place for everything... and don't say this "The world is my church" nonsense either. That doesn't give you right to bother people.

Don't dodge this... sure you may find that preaching to people is a good thing, but don't you realize how much it bothers people and upsets them? You could be telling someone that their god is wrong and yours is all high and mighty. And that is one way to truly offend someone. So, why don't you find that wrong?

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But who will want to go to church? There's a club here called The Church that used to be a cathedral, but that's O/T.

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Stop dodging the question.

People will go to church if they wish to seek that path. It is none of your business what they do spiritually. As I've told you a million times already, people know what Christianity is about, and if they seek it, they will seek it on their own.

If they want to be preached to, then they will go to church. You shouldn't preach to them otherwise.

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So get out of my business with this ministry idea.

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[quote="DeathlyPallor"]And don't tell me that you are opening up an option to them. Your idea of the option is already spread out all over the place. I see churches everywhere./quote]
But many people get the wrong idea of Christians & Christianity, and some people don't know what's in the Bible and what God teaches (it sort of sounds to me like you don't).

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Stop dodging the question.

But you will be shoving a religion down peoples throats, and I can't understand how you don't find that as wrong?

It is not to do with your spirituality, but how you act on it. If someone uses their religion to harm or interfere with others, then it becomes acceptable to do something. Using that as an argument just makes your reasons for doing this more transparent.

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Why are you only focusing on that aspect of it?
We wouldn't necessarily be witnessing all the time; giving someone a ride home is one way of showing God's love without "Bible thumping".

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I'm aware of this... I've read the bible, as I've said in previous posts. Twice, in fact. And not the NIV version.

It's not about converting people with your idea of religion, which is what the ministry looks like it has set up. It's about asserting your faith and doing good for humanity, not converting them. And not judging people's faiths (I didn't judge his faith at all, I'm questioning his methods) and accepting all people, Christian or Not (they tend to forget this part).

Sure, you are supposed to spread the word, but that is what church is for.



Not every is going to want to be prayed for. And they can arrange their own rides. It's called picking up a phone and calling a friend or a taxicab.



Because this is the part that is unethical. It is unethical to push your religion on people.

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