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 Post subject: The Myth of the Gender Wage Gap
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:05 pm 
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As was being discussed in an earlier thread, there is a very pervasive myth about wages in the United States; bottom line being that women get paid less than men and it's because their male bosses are sexist.

Rose wrote:
Nope, there are many companies that have been noted as paying men slightly more than women and can get away with it since the US has such poor unions and workers rights, as apparently people are happy being corporate slaves.


PianoMan wrote:
When unequal pay between sexes in the US is talked about, it's not referring to the pay between two completely different jobs. We're not comparing apples to oranges--we're talking about men and women doing the exact same job and women getting paid less simply because of what reproductive organs they were born with.


Now, I'm aware that this used to be a problem back about 40 years ago, but things have changed. From an article written by (gasp} a woman:

Arrah Nielsen wrote:
Equal pay for equal work has been enforced by the Equal Employment Opportunity Act since it was made law in 1972. The Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 also ban sex-based wage discrimination. So it seems pretty remarkable that the wage gap is so wide and pervasive even today. Attorneys should be having a field day with class-action lawsuits. But they are not. Could it be that even the legal establishment is complicit in this glaringly obvious patriarchal conspiracy?


Interesting indeed. The entire article is here.

Please read this article. It is very informative and backs up its statements well.

Another woman here has written a similar article regarding this myth. She also has some good points.

Denise Venable wrote:
Women make different choices, and those choices affect how they work. Women often place more importance on their relationships - caring for children, parents, spouses, etc. - than on their careers. A study by the Center for Policy Alternatives and Lifetime television found that 71 percent of women prefer jobs with more flexibility and benefits than jobs with higher wages, and nearly 85 percent of women offered flexible work arrangements by their employers have taken advantage of this opportunity.


Her entire article can be seen here.

Yet another woman fighting to do away with this myth:

Judy Cresanta wrote:
"As any economist knows, much of the wage gap is explained in differences in education, occupation and experience," writes Cathy Young of the Women’s Freedom Network. Many women, for example, leave the workforce to have and raise children. Women tend to be less willing to commute long distances. For the most part, women are less willing than men to enter high-risk, high-reward positions—preferring jobs which offer security and allow for flexible schedules, but do not pay as much. Women generally work about eight hours a week less than men. These are just some of the factors which can lead employers to pay men higher wages than women.

Conclusion
"Feminists have invented [Equal Pay Day]," writes the American Enterprise Institute’s Furchtgott-Roth, "just as they have invented the myth of the glass ceiling, in an attempt to give less-qualified women undeserved promotions and raises." Women do not face widespread wage discrimination, and female-owned businesses are booming in Nevada and throughout the nation. When feminists march for equal pay tomorrow, they will be propagating a myth which serves not the interests of female workers, but a shortsighted group of activists and politicians who refuse to face the truth about the economic status of women.


Exactly what I was saying earlier: the feminists do not want equal footing with men, they want greater opportunity just for being women. Just like Affirmative Action, they want to be treated better than the "majority" only because of their sex (or in the case of AA, skin color). Make no mistake about it: This is sexism and racism.

Again I reiterate, all I want is for people to be fairly judged and rewarded as their actions warrant. I've been passed up for promotions in favor of a female colleague. Did I get angry about it? Cry foul? No. I realized that she had better qualifications than I did, and went about my own business trying to improve myself, so that next time, I'd be ready for that promotion.

Finally, a real-life example of a group of people who didn't give in to the victim mindset.

As most of you know, soon after Pearl Harbor was bombed, many Japanese Americans were placed in internment camps. What you may not know is that there were many Japanese Americans who were in the ROTC or had been previously. These were very patriotic men, who had been born and raised on US soil, and were horrified and outraged at the attack of Pearl Harbor. They naturally wanted to do something about it, so they became Varsity Victory Volunteers and were stationed at a barracks in California. There they did Army duty without pay and were classified as "enemy aliens- not fit for service". After over a year of this, they were finally formed into the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, which later became the single most decorated unit of its size in the history of the US Army. Eight Presidential Distinguished Unit Citations, 560 Silver Stars, and at least 9,400 Purple Hearts, among other awards. This obviously greatly increased the respect of Americans for these men.

My point is, instead of sitting around complaining that they were being treated unfairly, the men of the 442nd went out and through their actions earned more rights for themselves. This is a great example to everyone, regardless of nationality.


Last edited by lahimatoa on Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:55 pm 
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total agreement over here. it's a harmful myth that does not help create equality in any way, just perpetuates stereotypes and ignores reality.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:07 pm 
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I've reported enough topics recently and I don't want to send a PM, so I'll jut highlight this bit for mods reading this:

Exactly what I was saying earlier: the feminists do not want equal footing with men, they want greater opportunity just for being women. Just like Affirmative Action, they want to be treated better than the "majority" only because of their sex (or in the case of AA, skin color). Make no mistake about it: This is sexism and racism.

Those are some really closed minded prejudiced, and stereotyping images of feminists that were debunked in the last thread, yet he feels the need to make another(after I pointed out that every single topic of his was made with the intent to knock down any form of activism). If a mod sees this take note.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:16 pm 
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Oh geez.. Will you two cut it out already?

I didn't lock this immediately, because I had faith that it might not go into a flame war.

They say it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.

I must be a big man, because, boy was I wrong.

While it's not quite an inferno yet, Rose posting was the match..

Lahi, quit posting things that others are going to take as trolls.

Rose, be mature enough to just ignore him.

I miss last week.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:34 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
Oh geez.. Will you two cut it out already?

I didn't lock this immediately, because I had faith that it might not go into a flame war.

They say it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.

I must be a big man, because, boy was I wrong.

While it's not quite an inferno yet, Rose posting was the match..

Lahi, quit posting things that others are going to take as trolls.

Rose, be mature enough to just ignore him.

I miss last week.


StrongRad, please don't take this as an insult, but I have faith in our users ability to keep this discussion civil. (Of course, the thread will be locked, and the bannings will be handed out if you prove me otherwise).

I happen to think that Lahi presented some interesting (to say the least) facts. At the very least they could be addressed.

Remeber guys, this is a forum concerning a freaking webcomic. There are plenty of newsgroups, forums, and other places for the really, really heated political/social debate.

(one very tired) Stu

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:44 am 
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Stu wrote:
StrongRad, please don't take this as an insult, but I have faith in our users ability to keep this discussion civil.
Not an insult at all. You're higher up in the chain of command, and when I took on Modding R&P, I asked you to correct me if I was wrong. Instead of an insult, I take it as you doing just as I asked.

I kinda got hasty in locking the thread, basically for the reasons that I mentioned when I locked it. Mainly that it didn't look like it was going to turn out well.

I hope the users here don't take it as an afront to their ability to remain civil towards one another.

I made a mistake by locking it (even though, given the direction I saw it heading, I can understand why I did what I did.)

I woulda PM'd this, but I thought others might benefit from seeing it.

Like Stu said, don't prove him wrong when he said "I have faith in our users ability to keep this discussion civil".

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:48 am 
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I appreciate that, StrongRad.

Thanks, Stu.

I hereby promise to improve my civility where all are concerned, and encourage everyone to do the same.

And please take a look at the original post. I feel it is important to debunk these myths that pervade society. Aren't we all just searching for the truth?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:57 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
I appreciate that, StrongRad.

Thanks, Stu.

I hereby promise to improve my civility where all are concerned, and encourage everyone to do the same.

And please take a look at the original post. I feel it is important to debunk these myths that pervade society. Aren't we all just searching for the truth?


Even though I don't have proof, I think there might be a wage gap (in terms of men getting promotions to higher paying jobs), but, like I said, I don't have any proof.

When I compare paychecks with female co-workers (in both my current job, and in past jobs I've had) they make the same I do when we're doing the same work.

There are some times (when I was at Wal-Mart), that I made more per hour than some female co-workers, but that was because I had been there 2 years longer than them (when you figured in their annual raises, we made the same). When I compared checks with those who had the same seniority as I did, we made the same money (unless one of us was in a department that made more than the others).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:04 am 
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I don't have much time to look up references or whatnot (I'm tired, stoo-fu) but from personal experience what lahimatoa is saying isn't all too far fetched. Even Ivy League girls don't always want to go straight off into work anymore, women still want to start families. And from what I can tell feminism is no longer truly a definable movement with the radical feminists placing themselves above men and I've heard of others claiming to be feminists while dressing in a very sexual manner.

Feminism, to me at the least (and yes, I do consider myself a feminist... not much of one, but one with some of those tendencies) is not so much about putting women above men but offering women a choice: you can go out and have children, do the traditional family thing or you can go out and live your life with your own career and get up there with the bigwigs without being disregarded for being a woman. For the most part, that's not a concern anymore. And I'll agree with you there. There's a lot of other areas where things are skewed one way or the other (like... education, science, hardwired gender differences).

Science is one area where there are a lot more men in the area, but this may just be a subject where women are not always as interested in as men. I like it personally... but I'm not exactly normal, so whatever. That's another discussion of its own.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am 
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Kittie Rose wrote:
I've reported enough topics recently and I don't want to send a PM, so I'll jut highlight this bit for mods reading this:

Exactly what I was saying earlier: the feminists do not want equal footing with men, they want greater opportunity just for being women. Just like Affirmative Action, they want to be treated better than the "majority" only because of their sex (or in the case of AA, skin color). Make no mistake about it: This is sexism and racism.

Those are some really closed minded prejudiced, and stereotyping images of feminists that were debunked in the last thread, yet he feels the need to make another(after I pointed out that every single topic of his was made with the intent to knock down any form of activism). If a mod sees this take note.

Thanks.


For some reason, I never read that part of his thread to mean that ALL feminists act and believe this way. As for Affirmative Action--that's another issue that deserves its own thread, so I won't stray from the topic here by posting my opinions on it.

Thanks for the links and information, lahi. It's a bit late, and I'm a bit tired right now, so I'll have to read the full articles later. I will admit that my statement that you quoted is what I have gathered entirely from hearsay, with no true evidence that I have researched to back up the claim.

I agree with lahi in that everyone should be treated with EQUALITY--no special rights--not for minorities OR majorities. In fact, the terms minority and majority are segregationalistic by their very definition, and to abolish such ideals of segregation--no matter who initiates it--these terms should be done away with. Now, I don't mean that we should ignore the fact that there is a disparity of equality in our current state; I mean that we should work at overcoming inequality by doing more than just trying to make quick-fixes with government handouts and certain regulations. Statistics, other than for the sake of social sciences such as sociology, should be done away with. You hear such statistics all the time on the news, about how men voted differently from women, about which races and ethnic groups buy which type of products...in the end, all it does is continue to ingrain in our minds an idea that we ARE seperated and that we should continue to think of ourselves as such. It's only when we can overcome this mindset and earnestly stop looking at people for their petty differences and instead look at them for their character and their actions that we can truly advance as an unprejudice society.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:00 am 
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I agree with lahi in that everyone should be treated with EQUALITY--no special rights--not for minorities OR majorities. In fact, the terms minority and majority are segregationalistic by their very definition, and to abolish such ideals of segregation--no matter who initiates it--these terms should be done away with. Now, I don't mean that we should ignore the fact that there is a disparity of equality in our current state; I mean that we should work at overcoming inequality by doing more than just trying to make quick-fixes with government handouts and certain regulations. Statistics, other than for the sake of social sciences such as sociology, should be done away with. You hear such statistics all the time on the news, about how men voted differently from women, about which races and ethnic groups buy which type of products...in the end, all it does is continue to ingrain in our minds an idea that we ARE seperated and that we should continue to think of ourselves as such. It's only when we can overcome this mindset and earnestly stop looking at people for their petty differences and instead look at them for their character and their actions that we can truly advance as an unprejudice society.


I like this, PianoMan. I agree that we need to overcome this obsession with differences before we'll ever get anywhere with equality... one thing to add however: I think it's important to remember that men and women ARE different. We're wired differently in many ways. Not that one sex is better than the other... both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses. I wouldn't like to see us move beyond recognizing gender at all but you're right... a lot of the statistical reports that are done do split men and women are unnecessarily.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:21 pm 
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If there is a gender wage gap, it's because of how people are reacting and not the fault of the feminists themselves. Feminist groups, with the exception of a few nuts, have never asked for anything more than equality. If you can show me what they're actually asking for and not what it appears to an uneducated eye what they had, then you might have a point.

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