Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

DISCLAIMER: This may not necessarily be construed as a political topic (and it certainly isn't about religion), but as it's a rant about society in general, I thought it'd be most appropriately put here. Mods/admins--feel free to move this and shun me if you see fit.

Okay...is it just me, or does it seem like American society has a shorter and shorter attention span anymore? I see it everywhere. Largely the fact that Hollywood keeps putting out unoriginal ideas: movies from books, comics, video games, stage plays and musicals, TV shows, or theme park rides...not to mention just plain old sequels, prequels, and remakes of older films.

And it's not just Hollywood. TV shows are rehashing the same old plots (every new cartoon on Nickelodeon or Disney follows the same formula of "I'm just an average kid trying to live an average life with this one quirk thrown in [with friends that serve as comic reliefs]"). Popular music is also full of remakes and sampling old material ("It's a hard knocks life," anyone? Comes from the musical "Annie."), and again following the same formulas (same chord progressions and song layouts) so that artists who have actual talent and creativity such as Josh Groban or John Mayer are rarities in the popular music scene.

And of course there's always the government. The government, which instead of fixing a problem, simply gives it a new name, expecting that most people will be too dumb to realize the lack of difference...and they usually don't. Remember welfare? Welfare got such a bad connotation that we don't have welfare anymore...but we have Assistance to the Needy (or something like that). The EXACT SAME PROGRAM, only with a different name...because we can't remember far back enough to see that Welfare and Assistance to the Needy is the same.

The real proof is in the pudding, though: everywhere I go online, people in forums post "favorite movie" or "favorite TV show" or "favorite music" threads. And what's on everyone's list? Everything from within the past 4 or 5 years. Did the world simply not exist before then? Are we THAT forgetful? Is it just that our world is so full of new information everyday that we can't keep up with anything that happened more than 5 years ago?

And more than just the lack of creative content, the sheer quality of TV shows, movies, and popular music has been on a downward spiral. I remember when people actually cared. I remember when Saturday mornings were WORTH getting up early for, because the cartoons were that good. I remember when bands such as Chicago, The Eagles, Earth Wind & Fire, and other artists were the mainstream guys--people who wrote and performed music because of their passion for the craft of music, not just because they saw the music industry as a tool to grant them fame and fortune.

Today, however, it's as if the bottom has dropped out, and the quality has gone down the drain. Cartoons look like they were drawn by 3 year olds. Music sounds like techno minimalism at its worst. TV shows are so sensationalist, concentrating on promescuity and violence, that it dumbs us down. As a result, we end up getting bombarded with day after day of mind-numbing horse manure...and we get used to it. And we don't mind it--because we don't NOTICE it, generally--when they lower the quality again one more tiny notch.

Where does it end, though? We, as a country, seem to be getting more and more angry, more and more divided, and more and more arrogant. Now, I'm not saying that popular media is solely to blame; that would be entire fallacious. But as our blood temperatures continue to rise over social issues, I continue to see these same angry people spouting their arguments at the top of their lungs while they have only part of the information (and refuse to listen to any other relevant information).

The media, through their continued degradation of quality, feed our apathetic and lazy attitudes of ever wanting or caring about getting something better for ourselves, about improving our own lives. So is it any wonder, then, that we continue to expect more and more while having to do less and less? Is it any wonder that we keep dividing ourselves as a country, trying to prove our own points by only shouting louder and louder instead of trying to form an intelligent opinion and get the whole story? And is it any wonder that we'll just forget about something within a year, month, or even week of it happening?

My bottom line question is this: What will it take to instill in people that sense of work ethic that we used to have before we were bombarded with more technology and information than we can handle? What will it take to get Americans off their lazy bums and actually think for themselves--beyond a 5 year history span without becoming History majors in college?

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

You're absolutely right on all counts. Our society is going downhill fast. Hollywood is the heart of the corruption. The city must be allowed to die... But you're right on TV. Cartoons today suck. The only good stuff seems to come from Japan, where good story telling and animation thrive. I think Full Metal Alchemist is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but for every FMA there's a 12 Ounce Mouse (I can't think of a worse TV show, honestly. I'm sure there are, but every time I try to think of them I think of 12 Ounce Mouse).

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I agree for the most part.

I think every generation says the exact same thing about the younger peoples' interests. My parents did it to me a bit (though not as much, because I got 90% of my musical taste from my dad). Their parents did it to them. All the 80's hairband fans looked at me funny when I thought Nirvana was way better than the cheeseball stuff they were listening to. It happens with every generation.

That being said, I agree that most of the stuff coming out now is complete crap. I rarely listen to music radio anymore besides the local classic rock station. It seems today's music is just like mass-production cloning of whatever the trendy new thing is. But I suppose the grunge I listen to from the early 90s could be considered the same thing.

Cartoons suck these days too. A lot of yelling and acting crazy, but not much substance. Did anybody else notice how much the 2000s Transformers show sucked compared to the one in the 80s? After two episodes of "minicons" nonsense I was done. Gotta catch 'em all!

Last weekend, my girlfriend and I decided to see a movie at the spur of the moment. The only movie playing at a convenient time was "Date Movie." Now let me just say, I have never walked out of a movie in my entire life. I even sat through all of "Red Eye," and that was a horrible movie. But I guess there's a first time for everything. About 30mins into "Date Movie", I looked at my girlfriend and said "Ready to go?" She nodded and we got outta there. The ticket booth manager was nice enough to give us our money back, and he was like "Don't worry, you're not the first." But the whole situation got me thinking. Am I just getting old? I'm 24 now, so I'm not that old . . .Would I have found that movie funny when I was 14? I'm not sure the answer to that. I remember liking "American Pie" a few years back, and I liked "Scary Movie" for the most part. . . so maybe "Date Movie" is just that horrible. I think as time goes on, I may find myself wanting to walk out of more movies, because the trend seems to be that movies are getting worse and worse. Probably why I've been seeing quite a few indie movies lately.

Yeah, so in conclusion, out with the new, in with the old!!

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Listen to the Black Crowes.

Piano man, I have to agree with you. It seems that no movies or television shows are original anymore. Just look at some of the movies that came out last year. The Longest Yard, remake. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, remake. Star Wars, episode 3, sequel/prequel. War of the Worlds, remake. Bad News Bears, remake. Dukes of Hazard, TV to film. Fantastic 4, Comic to film. Starting to see my point? I'd rather watch the older films, many of them are a lot better. As for music, I love my older music as much as I love my new music.

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I think that has to do with the fact that most of the people on the net are in the 10 to 20 category.

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Yep.

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Wait, so if someone likes stuff that is recent over older things, they have ADD? If I happen to like, say, the very recent band Tally Hall over Nat King Cole from the 1920's, that means I have a short attention span?

And are the concepts of innovation, progress, and technology all some sort of nation wide attention defecit disorder?

I don't like where this line of thinking is going, personally.

More realistically, parts of your argument are an exaggeration of something very simple--that generations do not inherit the memories of their ancestors.

In other words, we did not experience history--we did not feel it. We therefore don't remember it, and in many cases it's easier for us to be apathetic or blow it off. It's easier for someone who didn't experience that event or point in time to deny it.

There's a divide in South Korea, for example. Speaking in general terms, the later generations that were born after the Korea War, especially the ones our age, hate us, adore North Korea, and want us to leave the country. South Korea's older generations who experienced the war remember what North Korea did to them, how we tried to help, and are more moderate or supportive of having us around.

That somewhat explains why when Bush wanted to start pulling chunks of USAFK out to relocate in places where they'd be better used than as targets for protestors throwing rocks and glass bottles, the South Korea government was like "Ack! No, wait!"

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As I look in the past two centuries I keep finding echoes of today. And if you want to talk about how today's public is getting angry--Did you know, Gidley, that some people think the Vietnam War era could have triggered a civil war or rebellion within the U.S.?

It might be that we as a generation were born in the 1980's and 1990's. Relatively speaking, it (especially the 1980's) was less of a "hot" period. 1980's, the Cold War was still on the ice front, Iraq and Iran were shooting eachother up, the U.K. and Argentina were going at it, and the Soviet Union was still tangling with Afghanistan in their own "Vietnam."

For us in the U.S., however, we weren't in the middle of a war like Iraq II or Vietnam when we were born and raised. The Gulf War was a so-called "bloodless" war due to the decisive response by most of the world working together to put Saddam in his place, and the media refraining from showing the horrors of war that still persist, even in a war like the Gulf War.

Towards 2000 however, we got involved in less "clean" conflicts--Somalia is most remembered, but also the Kosovo war. I believe we were also in the Bosnian war too, since NATO was involved.

Anyway, that's a very general point, but major and drawn out international conflicts seem to bring out this edgy, angry quality in people in the U.S. The 1980's and 1990's, for the most part, didn't include such wars in which our armed forces were significantly deplyed into, or were so brief that it didn't work into the American public's psyche.

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No...I'm not saying you have to like the older stuff--I'm just saying that most people seem to act as if it doesn't even exist. They don't learn about it. And when someone refers to Halo 2 as a "classic" video game (using "classic" in the connotative context that it's "something that's been around a long while"), it implies that they see history as if a week equaled a year.



No, but my beef wasn't with innovation or progress, and little with technology. The only problem with technology is that there's so many new devices that people are trying to shove down our throats and get us to buy, as if it's a life or death situation if we don't have that latest iPod cover or XBox game. Yeah, technology is fine and dandy, and it helps improve our quality of life, but Americans seem to be too consumer-heavy. We HAVE to have every new little device. And yeah, Capitalism thrives on people trying to make their businesses grow and live on, which they do through mass commercialism...but I fear that we give in too easily. Maybe I'm just crazy or something--all I can say for certain is that something about the whole affair doesn't sit right with me.



That may very well be a large contributing factor...as I said initially, I don't blame media for EVERYTHING--that'd be just silly. But you can't deny at least that there seems to have been a decline in quality in what the media has given us...which was a large part of my argument. And it's that gradual decline in quality which leads us as Americans to be accepting of less and less, to be amazed and awed by less and less.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Correct...

Amercan Idol is trumping the Olympics in ratings.

WTF?

A bunch of half-talented hacks are more popular that people who have worked their entire lives for a 2 minute downhill run or a bobsled race.. That's a sad commentary on America.
Admittedly, I haven't watched much of the olympics myself, but I've watch an infinitely larger amount of Olympics than Idol. (I've watched ZERO Idol. I'm proud of that.)

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

The thing that's really irritating for me is that it really doesn't look like things are going to change.

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The only way is to convince 300 million people that movies aren't that important...

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At least there are still some good artists, and a couple of good radio stations. Music still has a chance.

Well, ticket sales have been down over the past couple of years. Fewer people are going to the movies, and given that most of the movies released nowadays are total and utter crap, I don't blame 'em.

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if you were a woman id [s]slug[/s] merry you

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I actually do have ADHD D: but I'm not insulted, honestly. :3
And I wouldn't just throw that around. But this isn't a place to debate the merits of an ADHD diagnosis, so I'll shut up now.
History, I will admit, is far from my favorite subject. And I won't argue the possible historical aspects of this.

But from what I can tell (I'm only a seventeen year old girl with a near-nonexistent social life, after all) popular culture has always been lambasted for some detrimental effect. Yeah, I'd rather not have my generation's music be remembered by 50 Cent and the overproduced stuff that's playing on the radio but I don't think that the underground is always remembered and I believe that's where things are happening creatively, and where people who want it will find it. As evil as technology is, it's allowed more and more people to find such material. I wouldn't be listening to half of the stuff I do without the internet.

Though I totally agree with you on the American animation bit. I know I can't draw cartoons for my life, and sometimes I feel bad for being an anime watcher, but I love animation and I lament the loss of traditional animation to CGI... there's some shows that are creatively using new technology (you can tell Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends is animated using Flash but it's not typical Flash-cartoon style as compared to a show like Hi Hi Puffy AmiYumi) and there's been some more stop motion coming into the scene with Corpse Bride (and even though it's been Hot Topic-ized, Nightmare Before Christmas remains brilliant in my book).

I'm not sure whether or not American values are moving towards unquestioning loyalty and acceptance along with inaction but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. I'm not qualified to debate this, but I guess those are my ideas on the matter. I'm too introverted.

Media quality:
I think the problem lies with the corporations that are choosing the stuff to put out there. When I look around on the web, I am amazed by the creativity I see. But then I wonder why some of this stuff isn't in theaters or on TV or in galleries... what is wrong with the decision makers? Are we artists simply being too quiet and thus getting passed up for the loud mouthed, unoriginal people making what's on the TV and radio, or do they purposely choose rehashed stuff because they're afraid of taking risks. That's what I want to know.

Perhaps we're losing our creative thinkers to the internet. I think a lot of people who could make awesome stuff for the media are just simply too fed up with it to try to raise the bar. It isn't worth it to them to sell out when they have a solid internet base. That is becoming more and more common... TBC were early ones, but there are tons now. Musicians, artists, animators, illustrators, writers... they are just fed up with the beaurocracy and have gone to the internet. Now all that is left is the dregs, the gunk at the bottom. That's what we're seeing now.

History:
I know what you are saying about people not bothering to learn about past stuff and missing out... but to be honest, some things really are hard to understand or find interesting for the newer crowd. Some things you just have to have experienced, or it really doesn't speak to you the same way. You can't make someone understand or take interest... and it's sad, but it will always be that way. It isn't just that they have blinders on, it's lack of interest.

I think I see the rest of your point, though. Just to remain in familiar territory, I have also noticed how newer games like WoW and Halo totally reign the gaming world right now. I know lots of people caught up in that trap, running out to buy the latest ________(insert tech thing here). I'm guilty of craving it, but I have sense enough to wait for the stuff I really can use most of the time.

But I think you are missing the fact that there is a growing number of people rebelling against that wave. "Old school" stuff is making a comeback. In some cases it never went away. Don't trust all the hype on the wires/airwaves... some of the biggest Halo freaks I've known turn out to be closet Atari nerds. It just isn't something they brag about... Same goes for music and movies and even sometimes clothes. I hope to god that spandex never makes a comeback from the 80s... but bowler hats would be cool for some odd reason. Oh, and I have ADD also... heh.

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I draw. Lots.

You just basically described the too-fast-pace-of-a-world-for-me way of life America has put me in.

Let me say one thing. Hollywood is almost total crap now. They come with crappy remakes, movies based on books or life stories, and just totally bad movies that aren't original. Did anyone realize that there are no animated movies (exept for curious george recently) that aren't CGI? They are mostly totally bad, who cares what the animation looks like, it's the story. Which brings me to the bad critics today. They judge on too much crap. They give remakes of good movies five stars automatically, and the original movies that are good crappy ratings(example: Two movies I liked, Sahara and National Treasure, got three stars and two stars). They rate it on "animation" and "charmingness" and "influence", who really pays five bucks to see anything but a good story moving on a screen?

Anyhoo, what else? I don't really think there are too many rip-offs in music industry though, there are still really good bands up there, like Green Day and System of a Down. They don't rip stuff off.

And cartoons. I hate TV now. I spend my leisure time on the computer, mostly there is good stuff like and other funny websites. Shows are pointless these days, they are just, all copies of each other. They all follow stupid plotlines that are copied from show to show, and many are too much alike. Too many CSI-like shows today. There are a lot of other rip-offs today too, but I just can't remember now.

I am just rambling now, so I'll stop.

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No, I lied. I'm never going to have a good sig. So just forget about it.

I would just like to say that I feel there are still good movies coming out. I feel that we see a lot more "crappy" ones simply because there are more movies in general. Toss in some impatient people (advertisers, audience, producers, actors...), and we get movies with weak story lines, poor acting, low quality animations, etc...

But I still feel that there are a number of studio/director/genres that are being done well still. Take a look at Peter Jackson and his films... how about the stuff that Tarantino is doing. What about Wes Anderson. They may not be Hollywood (by the definition), but they are still making high budget, high quality films.

About American Idol. I can honestly say that I don't care much for it. But I am positive that we have some closet fans here. How else would it be drawing a larger viewing audience than the world olympics? As long as people continue to support it (and I don't see it dying down any time soon) Fox will continue to make it... and all of the other countless spin-offs.

About ADD/ADHD. Both are very serious problems that should not be taken lightly. I have a friend with diagnosed ADD, and he is really ....

Wanna go ride bikes?????

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Hey, I have ADD and ADHD! And I have great grades! don't offend us!

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No, I lied. I'm never going to have a good sig. So just forget about it.

I don't think that was Gidley or Stu's intention there. They both seem like pretty ok people. Well, except for Stu... He clubs eskimos with baby seals, I think.

TOASTPAINT

I thought about something today. This could be true, or it could be nothing, I'll let you all think about it.

My thought: "The reason movies 'back then' are so good is because the only movies that we remember from 'back then' are the good ones. If we were alive 'back then' we might have seen the same ratio of crap to good movies as we see now. Time has filtered out the crap, leaving us only the good ones. Music is the same way."

I could be wrong, this is just something that came into my head when I let my thoughts wander (sometimes, when I get stuck on a program or homework problem, the best thing I can do is let my mind wander for 5 or 10 minutes).

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Well, yeah...there were obviously bad movies (and bad TV shows and music) from all time periods. MST3K shows us that. It just seems like the level of suck has increased lately. If nothing else, than in cartoons on TV...with the exception of more "adult" cartoons such as Family Guy, Futurama, and (though not as "adult") The Simpsons.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Do cartoons actually suck more? Seriously, I often wonder if it's not that we're just older now. I mean, sure, we can go back and watch old cartoons that we liked, but do we like them because they're good or because we grew up with them?

Do I think too much sometimes?

There's little doubt that no cartoons live up to the Warner Brothers/Looney Tunes stuff from waaaay back when, but those weren't actually made for children anyway.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

I do have to admit the premise of this thread ("Americans can't think for themselves") and a lot of the comments are seriously chafing me.

For another, people griping about how CGI is coming into its own, as if there is some horrid stigma about making 3D animations. That hits rather close to home because I'm looking to enroll in a art university with degrees in that field, but so far I've been autodidatic where that is concerned.

I've struggled--between college and many other things--to work on a project that has now been going on for more than a year. I've put a LOT of work into this thing, but when comments like "CGI sucks, bring back old cel animation," with the implication that CGi is somehow easier to do ... it's a downer.

3d modeling, from experience, is like trying to sculpt a statue using a remote controlled robot. I think it takes the same amount of skill and dediction a traditional cel artist needs. There are simply different strengths and weaknesses.

To take a more general address, I think a lot of people in this thread need to take a look around. Seriously. Stop, and examine things.

If Americans were truly the brainless, irrational, "gotta have the latest thing and obsess about that and only that right now the past does not exist" which Gidley accuses us of--and everyone in this thread seems to agree with--why are there so many fan communities dedicated to older shows?

Why would people even bother remembering such shows constantly, or buying DVDs of them? Why would I have been so eager to by the season 1 and 2 discs of The Adventures of Pete and Pete?

Why would there be threads here on this very wiki dedicated to old shows people miss and wish were still around?

Why is video game nostalga (i.e. "Retrogaming") a common theme in gamer culture?

Why would people even bother with amassing collections of older game systems, through illegal or legal methods? Why would they record older television shows not available on DVD?

I take a look at everything, and I see just as many nostalgic people as I do "Brave New World"ers. And, I honestly do think this thread is exhibiting a serious phobia towards anything new, as if progress and innovation are something to be feared, more than ever before. "HE JUST CALLED HALO 2 AN 'INSTANT CLASSIC,' A COMMON BUZZWORD IN MOVIE REVIEWS SINCE THEY WERE FIRST FILMED! BURN HIM!"

Don't like new bands on the radio? Go indie. Some of the bands I like to listen to include Machinae Supremacy (pioneers of SiD Metal--Commodore 64 chiptunes blended with heavy metal, OH SNAP MORE RETROGAMING CULTURE) and Tally Hall, alongside more mainstream bands.

Pardon me if I sound too hostile. Like I said, this thread is chafing me like Coach Z--first the implication that we're all brainless, stupid morons who can't think for themselves, then the distaste for any recent developents in entertainment that I am heavily involved in (CGI ... )

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Totally agree. Cartoons suck in the US, the only good ones are Futurama and Family Guy, and that's only two.

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I never said CGI was easier or any less artistic than cel animation, what I really meant was that although CGI has a lot of possibilities, cel animation does have a particular look to it and I don't want it to be lost forever. I haven't had much experience modeling, but from what I've seen of it it's not that easy and working on something uber-detailed can take a large commitment. You can do wonderful things with CGI, but you can do rather crappy looking things too. Well, it's the same across all media, but whatever.

I love all of Pixar's films and I'll continue to. But it's sad that Disney had to shut down its traditional animation studio to create a CGI one.

The thing that bums me is that Disney somehow bought Pixar back. I had thought Pixar had separated itself from Disney, which woulda been great, not having to be constrained by Disney's mostly family friendly image. Cars is probably gonna be great. After all, both Toy Story's, A Bug's Life, Monster's Inc., Finding Nemo, and The Incredibles were all awesome, the last two winning the Oscar for Best Animated Picture.

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Sorry. I wasn't talking about Gidley or Stu, I was talking about other people. I also guess I forgot to say that some of these posters think ADD and ADHD people will take this personally too much.

I didn't really take it personally.

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No, I lied. I'm never going to have a good sig. So just forget about it.

I think that the ADD and ADHD is pretty much in the topic title only. Other than you and someone above, I don't think it has been brought up.

Now, PianoMan, I agree with you on the most part. However, I also have to agree with StrongRad's reasoning. I feel we have a tendancy to think that things we saw when we were younger are better than what's on now. It's probably the primary reason why people say the original Star Wars trilogy is better than Episodes 1-3. (Well, other than the fact that they, for the most part, were)

I actually think that some cartoons that are on these days are really good. My favorite might be Billy and Mandy. I also enjoy Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, and SpongeBob for some reason.

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My complaints about cartoons and new films have less to do with CGI and more to do with storylines and the crappy quality of any cartoons left being made in 2D. Compare shows today like Ed, Edd, & Eddy or Billy & Mandy as opposed to older toons like the Warner Brothers or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. There's an OBVIOUS decline in the sheer quality of 2-dimensional animation there. The new ones look entirely thrown together, because they have to produce more and more on shorter and shorter deadlines--because the American dollar means more than quality entertainment.

But even more than just the quality of animation is the content of the cartoons. Crude bathroom jokes and the like that you would never hear Bugs Bunny saying--he was making intelligent jokes about politics and history on top of all the slapstick. Okay, so they're tailored for young children, but are young children undeserving of quality? Chuck Jones once said that you could tell a story with sock puppets--if the storyline is good and the characters are dynamic, then people will flock to it. That's what I feel so many TV execs don't get anymore--they just go for the cheap thrill instead of a memorable adventure.

I LIKED The Incredibles and Finding Nemo and Toy Story and Antz...not because they were CGI, but because I liked the storylines and the characters.

Oh, and I'm an American, so I'm complaining about my own fellow citizens when I talk about people who are just mindless. Of course I'm not stupid enough to say that everyone follows these patterns--there's enough evidence out there to show that lots of people don't. What concerns me is that all this trash in the media is part of how people in our country are being socialized, and it's how many other countries perceive ours. And while I realize some sort of balance is necessary, I fear that there is too much stupidity in America tipping the balance.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Not only do Americans seem to have a short attention span for making their own things, but they also have a knack for making existing british things suck!

Riders on the Storm was ruined by Snoop Dogg.

Willy Wonka was destroyed by... hollywood.

Melt with You + Bowling for Soup = Very no.

You get the picture.

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Sister, now that we're grieving
Our fingers will falter
Our lungs will be leaking
All over each other and without even speaking
We'll know that it's over and smile and go greeting
Whatever comes next