Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Yeah, who do you think is gonna build the wall around out borders? I know that's sort of mean, but immigrants are willing to take any job that pays money because they want to work (like manual labor and other things most legal citizens don't want), not all of them are just sneaking in for kicks or to kill people. As for the ones that come here to sell drugs or something, that is bad, and they should be punished, but just imagine if we had built a wall around Ellis Island in the 1900s. Things would be a lot different.

TOTPD

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Dag, yo.

No one is saying we shouldn't let ANYONE in. The people coming into America through Ellis Island were allowed in LEGALLY.

My opinion of the "let illegals work here and become citizens" sounds rather liberal. I don't have a problem with illegal immigrants coming here to work.

My reasoning sounds really conservative, though. If an illegal takes your job, you're not working hard enough.

Almost every job that illegals take are jobs that other people won't do or don't want to do for the wage being offered. American workers have priced ourselves off the market. Who's to blame? I don't know. Part of me wants to blame the unions, but that is most likely an over simplification of the situation, or is completely wrong.
If people are willing to work in order to gain US Citizenship, it seems like we should be willing to accomidate them. Hard workin' types should be more than welcome here in America.

Being in a scientific field, I honestly don't feel threatened by illegal workers "taking my job".

OK, maybe this post is a little more opinionated than I want it to be, but I'm just in one of those "hate the world" moods right now. Y'all know how those feel.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Um, so what you're saying is that if you're not willing to work for $1.50 an hour, it's your fault? I can't agree with that one, StrongRad. People may hire illegals because they're hard workers, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think that some do it because they can make illegals work for nothing and not have to answer to Federal Employment Laws.

Again, I have no problem with implementing a guest worker program and allowing people to work in the U.S. But it has to be regulated... can't be all willy-nilly like it has been.

I never saw the problem with just letting in anybody from any country. If you make the illegals actually legal, what's the problem?

Yes, I know I'm hopelessly naive and idealistic.

- Kef

Not a good idea to let people in with no record of them ever entering. Makes it far too easy to commit a crime and get away with it.

I didn't say anything about there being no record.

Okay, then we're pretty much on the same page. But aren't you a little concerned that if we just let everyone in the entire world who wants to come live here it'll get a bit crowded?

There are plenty of sparsely populated areas in the United States. Things would get crowded in some areas at first, but I expect the population would eventually redistribute itself more uniformly.

I suppose the issue really depends on how many people want to get in (who aren't already illegally in already). If that number is very large, then we could well end up with large numbers of unemployed immigrants. So I wouldn't advocate immediately opening the floodgates even if we could. But I think an "open" country is a goal we could be working towards.

- Kef

But it's not like we're "closed" as it is right now. We allow hundreds of thousands of immigrants to enter the US legally each year. Why do you say we are not open?

Because the process still isn't easy?

Nothing worth having ever is...

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

That's not a reason it should be difficult to get in, though.

I'll give you that.

The reason it's tough to get in is because, supposedly, they don't want people to come in who are going to cause trouble, be a strain on the system, etc (we have enough of thoer people here already).

I've got no problem with immigrants being expected to know basic english, a little history, etc...

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

OK, here's my take on illegal immigration: If you're not a citizen of the US, then you can't enjoy the same freedoms as a citizen. You can either get an authorization to work, such as a green card, or become a naturalized citizen. Or go home.

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I agree that this is really the "fairest" way to do things with the laws we have now. Somebody who lives here illegally is getting benefits for free because they don't pay taxes. I despise people who would actually shoot at illegals crossing the border, and I think those who do are racist scum, but people who are illegal, by definition, don't "belong" here.

But that wouldn't be a problem if they were legal (I'd like to see more debate on whether or not they should be "legalized", rather than saying what we ought to do with illegals). An influx of hispanics is not going to turn this whole country upside-down. True, it could easily make whites only a plurality (even a minority eventually), but that shouldn't even be a factor. No race "owns" America. (I know nobody here has been arguing from a racial standpoint, but this thought does unsettle some people who are otherwise not racist. Besides, I'll talk about this anyway because I'm writing an essay on the subject and I need to sort out my thoughts. A little discussion on it wouldn't hurt, too.)

Let's not forget the Indians whose tribes have been shattered by our greedy conquest; we don't really belong here either in that sense. True, we didn't do it personally, and we can't be held responsible for it, but there's no doubt that we're still living from the benefits of it. If your grandfather steals something and passes it down to you, that doesn't mean it's not stolen anymore. Unfortunately, in this case, we can't really give it back. If everybody but the Indians left America, I doubt they would really be better off; they could live a more traditional lifestyle, but it would never be the same -- and besides, many of them live just the way we do now. No doubt some do wish to return to a more isolated, traditional life, but I'm sure just as many are just fine accepting what has happened, despite how ugly it is, and living in modern American society. But we can't pretend we have no blood on our hands, y'know?

- Kef

Oh, trust me, many of those shooting at illegals crossing the border would be shooting them if they were British, too. Or German. Or French. Or Australian. Don't make this a race issue.

Examining this thread ... Seeing certain comments made by certain people ... This is one reason why it's hard to talk about illegal immigration. Supporters of illegal immigrantion can just play the race card and destroy any chance opponents have of talking sense, since they turn into sheet-wearing KKK members in the public eye.

Cheap, false ad hominem tactics.

That's what's been happening here where I live--high school students demonstrating against alledged "government racism" in response to the HR bill. I'm sorry, I didn't know that trying to stop corporation's abuse of immigrants who aren't subject to Federal laws, or even just the government getting the money it needs to function, is racism!

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There have been some protests here in Colorado. At this one school, students who wore flag T-shirts or patriotic stuff (of ANY kind) got expelled, but the principal is getting sued.

The whole immigration thing is a huge debate in Colorado, especially because Rep. Tom Tancredo is so against illegals.

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I really doubt it. They may still harbor resentment at a large influx of people from any country, but that doesn't mean they'll want to kill them. I think we can all agree that, whether or not illegal immigration is really a problem, people shouldn't die for it. So people who would shoot at illegal immigrants are fueled by some kind of hatred... like maybe racism?

BTW, in response to Trev-MUN, by no means do I think that any and all opposition to illegal immigration is racism... but I also think we'd be kidding ourselves if we believe that it isn't a factor, sometimes even a large factor, for some people.

- Kef

Yes, maybe racism is behind the motives of some people, but not all.
My guess is that "they took our jobs" is more of a motivation. Liek I said earlier, though, this is a weak reason.

My opposition is that I've had friends who came here legally (and a friend deported because she thought she had come here legally and found out she hadn't). They went through the things they had to instead of trying to find a way to circumnavigate the system and become a drain on it. These people should do the same.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

BTW, I suggest that people here watch the movie El Norte (if you're old enough; it's rated R). It shows why some people illegally immigrate to the U.S., and I think it illustrates that it's hard enough for some people just to get there and live illegally, let alone legally...

- Kef

Pardon for trivializing the lives on this very issue by comparing it to something petty in comparison, but Strong Rad's comment here:



Put this way, it reminded me strongly of the whole problem in Ragnarok Online with botting. People using automated programs to play the game for them, or trying to flood the market with mass bots selling loot and vending it, causing inflation, draining server resources, etc. ...



You weren't the guy I was thinking of when i said that. I was thinking more of posts like this. "I'm opposed to illegal immigration, but not legal immigration." "RACIST!"

That said, assuming people'd shoot immigrants only because they're racist is a generalization. Granted we're talking about a grisly subject that really should not be advocated (and doesn't the Minuteman Project apprehend the illegal immigrants and get them back safely to Mexico or their home country?), but people will have varying reasons to hold such a lethal grudge, as Strong Rad pointed out.

After all, we aren't exactly living in bright economic times; sure, we're recovering, but the recession's effects are still being felt. And companies hiring illegals over legals is not going to make people happy.

... and see, there's the rub. Why the heck aren't more legal immigrants speaking out over the whole "opposing illegal immigration is racism" mindset? You'd think they'd be the most annoyed with illegal immigrants, companies more willing to hire illegals for less pay and more work when the legals went through the trouble of becoming naturalized, or other legal statuses of coming here to work, study, and live.

Really, it's in the best interest of the country, and the immigrants themselves, to come here legally. There's difficulties and hardships involved, yes, but the effects of people just coming on over is causing strain in many ways.

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I know, but since I kept going on about race, I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be misunderstood.

- Kef

Bottom line for me--and one I hope many of us can agree on: I oppose people coming here illegally, but before we make it a felony to immigrate here illegally, I think we should first consider making it a bit easier for people to immigrate here legally. Take care of at least one of the roots of the problem, instead of charging people for the symptom.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I won't argue (much) on making the immigration process easier (or at least more streamlined), but I still view ANY plan to allow illegal immigrants that are here any kind of waiver on the fact that they were here illegally. Deport them and let them apply to enter legally.

My friend Myleen and here family weren't given a chance when it was discovered they were here illegally. It didn't even matter that they thought they were here legally and had gone through the proper channels to do so (in simplest terms, they paid a lawyer to do the paperwork, and instead of doing it, he took their money and gave them some false paperwork).

Still, the point is the same. They weren't given a second chance even though they were here to add something to America, not be a drain (her dad pretty much went from nothing to being rather well off. They paid taxes, earned college degrees, etc.) so neither should the fence jumpers that come here for nothing more than to earn money (tax free).

Geez, I sound angry there, don't I?

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Oh, I agree that the process should be streamlined.

I've got two paranoid conspiracy theories to drop on the subject, though. Everyone get in your bunkers.

I can't help but wonder if some of the real nativists intentionally worked to complexify and obfuscate the naturalization process, thinking if they made it too hard to be a legal citizen of the U.S., no one would try coming here.

I mean, we've had that kind of thing before, legal immigration quotas and the like. It makes me wonder.

Of course, they surely see the futility in doing that. If someone wants here bad enough, they'll risk coming here illegally. And that just hurts the country, all for their xenophobia.

But ... who knows. I don't know how many reforms and changes the immigration system's had. But in the end, I agree--if you make it easier to be naturalized, people wouldn't get screwed by slimy crooks (I'm really sorry for your friend, Strong Rad ... ), nor would you have so many sponging off the system without putting their bit in, too.

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strong rad again makes a good point. i have a close friend who is here legally but not a citizen, and even though she is here legally was nearly depored. her family has gone through all of the correct avenues for legal immigration (since she was in thrid grade or so) and in her senior year of high school was nearly deported because their first lawyer did it wrong.

that kind of thing is really lame, and i am NOT cool with deporting people who came here legally because quite honestly it is a terrible pain in the butt and it is much, much easier to get a temp visa and let it expire, so i have great respect for anyone willing to wade through that mucky system.

i also think that shooting people on the mexican border is the most terrible thing i have ever heard, not because it's racism (that depends on the individual doing the shooting) but because it is sadistic and murderous to kill people at your own discretion. nobody can advocate shooting immigrants (and im not saying anyone here does, but there are many people who actually do) because they are ILLEGAL if their solution to the problem is such a morally despicable and illegal act as killing people.

Oh my gosh. Now there's a Spanish translation of "The Star-Spangled Banner". Geez, how cushy are we gonna be to our Latino immigrants?

Everyone who comes to this country should learn the culture, language, & law. And become legal citizens, so they can have a right to sing "The Star-Spangled Banner". I'll only sing "La Marseillaise" in French class.

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I have one problem with this, there are people who ARE legal citizens that don't know those things. I don't have a problem with multiculturalism and such, because that's just part of America. We all bring something to the table.
I do, still, have a problem with illegal immigrants. I mean, come here legally if you want to come here.

If you go to school or work at a place that's letting immigrants off Monday for "Day without an Immigrant Day", you should take the day off, too. We're all immigrants. Some of us have just stopped whining about it.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.