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Cola wrote:

Lets play a game. Right now, YOU are an illegal immigrant. You work for 25 cents a day and you try to support your family, which consists of your wife, and two children. You live in a shack on the fields. You and your family are minding your own business dining on a stale loaf of bread and warm dirty water. Suddenly, men in black suits roll up, slap you upside the head, speak to you in a language that you only know a few words to, they shove you in the back of a truck, and dump you outside of a Mexican city that you and your family have never been too. Your son and daughter disappear after they drop you off, and your wife is dying of thirst. Within a few hours, you've lost your entire family.

No I do not think that is fair, but I believe they are deserving of an investigation, and they are not likely to find that the evidence traces back to a man in that situation.

I don't believe they wouldn't find anyone in that situation to be guilty of a crime regardless of who it is.

Then I should be deported.

Stop disregarding the Declaration of Independence. All men are created equal. Just because they're illegal immigrants doesn't mean they forfeit the rights endowed upon them because they are human.

No I do not think that is fair.

I should be deported.

Rusty wrote:

AbuGrape45 wrote:

I get all of it. I believe they don't deserve fair trial.

care to provide a reason that isn't total BS?

I already said, having them here as an illegal people is bad enough, but having them commit crimes, allegedly or otherwise, is just bad to worse. They deserve to have an investigation, and if they find enough evidence that they're guilty, it's the end for them.

Regardless of what I said earlier, here is my take on the entire thing: Illegal immigrants do not necessarily require a court case in the U.S. You guys say that they do; fair enough, it is in the Bill of Rights. But I don't think they're entitled to any type of justice to be provided by the United States.

But you guys also talk like their homeland, be it Mexico, Canada, or Europe, is a socialist or communist country, which is not true. Can't their court cases be handled in whatever country they're native to?

You can feel that way, but as you said, the right IS in the Bill of Rights.

I just think that if we can prove they're illegal after they've committed a crime

AbuGrape45 wrote:

I just think that if we can prove they're illegal after they've committed a crime

JUST BEING HERE IS THEIR CRIME!!!!!!

It has nothing to do with being equal.

It has nothing to do with being equal.
You're a human being, other human beings are petty thieves and murderers, does that make you one?

That's my bad, I thought he meant race which is brought up to me in most cases.
But illegal immigrants aren't American citizens and thusly don't deserve an American style trial.

AbuGrape45 wrote:

It has nothing to do with being equal.
You're a human being, other human beings are petty thieves and murderers, does that make you one?

What??

He's saying the same thing I've been trying to tell you for the last three pages. All people deserve the same rights because of their status as humans, and that includes right to a fair trial.

Author:	Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: Cola wrote: Lets play a game. Right now, YOU are an illegal immigrant. You work for 25 cents a day and you try to support your family, which consists of your wife, and two children. You live in a shack on the fields. You and your family are minding your own business dining on a stale loaf of bread and warm dirty water. Suddenly, men in black suits roll up, slap you upside the head, speak to you in a language that you only know a few words to, they shove you in the back of a truck, and dump you outside of a Mexican city that you and your family have never been too. Your son and daughter disappear after they drop you off, and your wife is dying of thirst. Within a few hours, you've lost your entire family. No I do not think that is fair, but I believe they are deserving of an investigation, and they are not likely to find that the evidence traces back to a man in that situation. So you believe that your family is deserving of an investigation as to whether or not you deserve to be in this country? Remember, we're playing a game.

Author:	Acekirby [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: No I do not think that is fair, but I believe they are deserving of an investigation, and they are not likely to find that the evidence traces back to a man in that situation. You are the immigrant in this situation.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
I don't believe they wouldn't find anyone in that situation to be guilty of a crime regardless of who it is.

Author:	Acekirby [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
what? COLA's talking about a hypothetical situation. He's asking you if you put yourself in the shoes of that immigrant, how would you feel?

Author:	Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: I don't believe they wouldn't find anyone in that situation to be guilty of a crime regardless of who it is. Well, according to your logic, You are guilty for just being there.

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Illegal Immigrants http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7344	Page 11 of 13

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
Then I should be deported.

Author:	Acekirby [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
If you were that immigrant, can you honestly say that's what you would think? I don't. I'm not for or against any part of this game, I'm just trying to keep you honest.

Author:	Beyond the Grave [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: Then I should be deported. ¿Es posible para usted tener los pensamientos lógicos?

Author:	Rusty [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
Acekirby wrote: Stop disregarding the Declaration of Independence. All men are created equal. Just because they're illegal immigrants doesn't mean they forfeit the rights endowed upon them because they are human. This man has good ideas.

Author:	gunluva [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: No I do not think that is fair. AbuGrape45 wrote: I should be deported. ???

Author:	Rusty [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: Rusty wrote: AbuGrape45 wrote: I get all of it. I believe they don't deserve fair trial. care to provide a reason that isn't total BS? I already said, having them here as an illegal people is bad enough, but having them commit crimes, allegedly or otherwise, is just bad to worse. They deserve to have an investigation, and if they find enough evidence that they're guilty, it's the end for them. lol, oh wow. So, anyone ELSE who commits crimes is okay to have a trial. But not illegal immigrants, no sir!

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
OK, first I want to apologize for the foolish and ignorant way I was posting yesterday. Mikes, while calling me out like you did was probably not necessary, I honestly can't blame you for it. Looking back, I was doing a lot of complete position-flipping and flopping and contradicting. You guys had me on the defensive, I presented my opinion poorly, and I made myself look stupid. Regardless of what I said earlier, here is my take on the entire thing: Illegal immigrants do not necessarily require a court case in the U.S. You guys say that they do; fair enough, it is in the Bill of Rights. But I don't think they're entitled to any type of justice to be provided by the United States. But you guys also talk like their homeland, be it Mexico, Canada, or Europe, is a socialist or communist country, which is not true. Can't their court cases be handled in whatever country they're native to?

Author:	Acekirby [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: Regardless of what I said earlier, here is my take on the entire thing: Illegal immigrants do not necessarily require a court case in the U.S. You guys say that they do; fair enough, it is in the Bill of Rights. But I don't think they're entitled to any type of justice to be provided by the United States. You can feel that way, but as you said, the right IS in the Bill of Rights. AbuGrape45 wrote: But you guys also talk like their homeland, be it Mexico, Canada, or Europe, is a socialist or communist country, which is not true. Can't their court cases be handled in whatever country they're native to? A country does not have to be socialist or communist to be a destitute or unfair country. That's a naive opinion. The US has to handle it because it is a crime in US Law.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
I kind of thought that, but I wasn't entirely sure. That's why I asked. Ace wrote: You can feel that way, but as you said, the right IS in the Bill of Rights. Right. I can feel that way. It's probably not the truth, and the Bill of Rights is the Bill of Rights, but I just don't think that someone who is in our country in violation of the law, and is aware that they are in this country in violation of the violation of the law, that proceeds to violate another law anyways doesn't deserve to be fairly treated. I honestly don't think a murderer shouldn't be treated unfairly either, but the Bill of Rights says so, so that's the way it has to be. I just don't think it's right.

Author:	Rogue Leader [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
First off, saying that illegals do not deserve a trial seems like a pretty big slippery slope. I mean what's next? If you're convicted of a crime once, no need for a trial? The point of the US justice system should be equal protection for all. In our justice system, it is better to let ten guilty men go free than to let one innocent man go to jail. The minute we start to compromise for the sake of expediency is the day we start to decline.

Author:	HHFOV [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
Actually yeah proving means a trial pretty much, except they get to defend themselves. Also, what part of "All men are created equal" do you not understand?

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Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
I just think that if we can prove they're illegal after they've committed a crime, and they haven't been proven as such prior to their criminal act, they shouldn't get trial. That's just my opinion, and even if I was in charge of the U.S, I would probably not dare interfere with the Bill of Rights. It just doesn't seem right to me, though.

Author:	Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: I just think that if we can prove they're illegal after they've committed a crime JUST BEING HERE IS THEIR CRIME!!!!!!

Author:	Rusty [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: I just think that if we can prove they're illegal after they've committed a crime You know what that "proving" is? A trial.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
Ok, maybe I should be more clear: They don't deserve a trial because they are not U.S. citizens, they should be tried elsewhere, and to imprison them here is illegal detention. They are here illegally, they are even referred to as illegal immigrants, they are in the wrong, they're even aware they are here illegally. Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote: AbuGrape45 wrote: I just think that if we can prove they're illegal after they've committed a crime JUST BEING HERE IS THEIR CRIME!!!!!! But we have to prove it, and that doesn't necessarily mean trial.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
It has nothing to do with being equal. You're a human being, other human beings are petty thieves and murderers, does that make you one? I have no problem with them being Mexican, Asian, Spanish, Ukrainian, whatever they are, it's the fact that they are in violation of the law that bothers me.

Author:	Rusty [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: It has nothing to do with being equal. It has everything to do with that.

Author:	Acekirby [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: It has nothing to do with being equal. You're a human being, other human beings are petty thieves and murderers, does that make you one? What?? He's saying the same thing I've been trying to tell you for the last three pages. All people deserve the same rights because of their status as humans, and that includes right to a fair trial.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
That's my bad, I thought he meant race which is brought up to me in most cases. But illegal immigrants aren't American citizens and thusly don't deserve an American style trial.

Author:	Rusty [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
What. That's like saying we're not Mexican so we don't deserve authentic Mexican restaurants.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
That's different. As American citizens, we are entitled to rights guaranteed to American citizens. As citizens of another country, they are entitle to rights guaranteed to American citizens. That doesn't quite add up, does it?

Author:	Rusty [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
Yes, it does. When they're in this country. All men =/= men who are born in this country.

Author:	HHFOV [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
AbuGrape45 wrote: That's my bad, I thought he meant race which is brought up to me in most cases. But illegal immigrants aren't American citizens and thusly don't deserve an American style trial. Acekirby wrote: AbuGrape45 wrote: It has nothing to do with being equal. You're a human being, other human beings are petty thieves and murderers, does that make you one? What?? He's saying the same thing I've been trying to tell you for the last three pages. All people deserve the same rights because of their status as humans, and that includes right to a fair trial.

Author:	AbuGrape45 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Illegal Immigrants
People that are not citizens of the U.S. don't receive American trials, that's just the way it is.