Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Okay. Here goes.

I was on fossilize_apostle's profile and I found an atheism website. I have a few questions about the belief and so I checked out the FAQ on the website. One of the Q/A's I found disturbed me a LOT.



This does not answer the question. They stated neither yes nor no, but it seems to lean toward yes. I was tempted to email them and ask to clarify their answer, for my own peace of mine if for any other reason, but I am on a Gov't computer, and I didn't feel like handing out my military email address to a website that seems like it hates religious people, i.e. ME.

I'm looking for an Atheist's point of view here. How do you view us? And why?

I know it's just probably that one website, but I just couldn't sit on this.

The "answer" to the FAQ is patently false. "Most atheists are vehemently opposed to all religions" is lame presumption, probably made by the author of his site when he looked around his basement one day and thought, "Hmm.. everybody I hang out with is an atheist, and everybody I hang out with is opposed to all religion," and thought that constituted a statistical "most".

Saying that most atheists hate Christians is essentially equivalent to saying most Christians think atheists are evil. Yes, there are atheists who hate Christians and there are Christians who think atheists are evil. That doesn't actually say anything about the general opinion of either group.

Web sites like that are what makes some Christians think atheists are evil.

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In addition to that...



It's not really as simple of that when you're dealing with such a wide category as atheism. There are many, many atheist beliefs, and if you want to find out more, one FAQ on one website isn't necessarily going to give you the answers.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Atheism isn't really so much of a belief as a lack of a belief, but whatever. I would like to point out that "I do not believe in God" is semantically different from "I believe God does not exist", even though colloquially we might use the former (non-belief) to mean the latter (belief in nonexistence).

Anyway...

I remember when I found http://atheism.about.com/ -- I think that's when I decided I really am an agnostic atheist. (I was a "pure" atheist for a while, though, and I was pretty much a jerk during that time in the way you described. I think I just didn't have my beliefs sorted at the time, so the whole idea just annoyed me.) That site is a good read, I think, whatever point of view you have, especially the bits under "fallacies and arguments".

Do I think religion is dangerous? Nahhh. It can promote dangerous mindsets (terrorism), and it can promote good mindsets (philanthropy), and it can promote silly mindsets (like ignoring evidence in an argument... ). Religious people in general are just fine with me. Their beliefs can annoy me sometimes. That's fine. I'm sure my beliefs annoy other people, too. It's not really a problem, it's a rather universal thing that happens when people just have a different point of view. I can't stand fanatics, though, who are so convinced of their rightness (and righteousness) that they try violently to force their views upon others -- both in the literal and metaphorical senses of "violent".

A little digression: there are many varities of atheists. I will gladly point out that many atheists are atheists for the wrong reason, just as I may feel many people hold certain religious beliefs for the wrong reason. To quote my friend Adrian, atheism is "cool" (i.e., popular; he isn't an atheist himself). That's no reason to be an atheist. Are your parents atheists? That's no reason to be an atheist, either. I personally think the only good reason for being an atheist is you feel that the idea of a Creator (in the conventional sense) doesn't really make much sense, or at the least, any more sense than the alternative. I'm not going to really bother anybody with why I feel that way since it's not really important here yet.

Interruptor Jones already summed up pretty much everything else I'd have wanted to say.

- Kef

It kinda cheeses me off that someone would put such ignorance on a supposedly informative website.

Erg. Hatred is disgusting.

This is a minor point, but I must point out that atheism is indeed a belief. It is a belief that there is no transcendent reality whatsoever. Only that which can be experienced in the physical realm is in any sense true. Many (not necessarily most) atheists are actively hostile toward anyone who disagrees with them. On the other hand, there are many religious people who have the same attitude toward atheists and people of other religions. But it just goes to show just how this question is so important to people.

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Congratulations, you just completely ignored the distinction I explicitly made between non-belief and belief in nonexistence.

Take me for example. I don't believe in God (making me an atheist), but it's not the case that I believe in the nonexistence of God (making me an agnostic). I don't hold the belief that "there is no transcendent reality whatsoever". This is "weak atheism" or "agnostic atheism".

This is different from, say, Douglas Adams, who asserted There Is No God (and went so far to say that it was not a belief, but knowledge). This is "strong atheism" or "explicit atheism".

- Kef

could i have the address of the website?

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if you could choose your ancestors, and grow just like a weed
pick a stud to congeal your blood and get your earlobes free

I presume you already do, since it was found in your profile.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au

it was the one i had all along!

what they are saying is it isn't important whether atheists hate christians, that isn't the issue. christians who have faith are going to think that regardless. personally, i don't hate christians, thats crazy. i don't like things that result from christianity (wars, abortion clinic bombings, prevention of teaching science). religion is an unnessecary propisition these days.

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if you could choose your ancestors, and grow just like a weed
pick a stud to congeal your blood and get your earlobes free

Fossilize: why don't you come down to the nursing home and tell that to my patients sometime. I'm sure they'd get a kick out of it.

I must confess that many an ignorant person has done all sorts of harm in the name of religion. It is a fact of history. However, that fact in and of itself does not prove that religion is wrong is wrong in its claims or of no use to those who believe it.

As a learned man myself--one whose interests range from astronomy to ancient history--I do not feel that my religion in any way prevents the teaching or advancement of science. In fact, as I pointed out on another thread, there have been many great scientists in history who were religious, like Blaise Pascal, DesCartes, and Isaac Newton. Why, even Charles Darwin was considered an Anglican in good standing (although I have to wander what exactly was meant by that).

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tell that to the people who have wiped the theory of evolution from the curicullum, in place of creationism. tell that to gallileo.

intresting story about darwin: The man who owned the boat The Beagle that Darwin sailed on, chose Darwin, in part, because he liked the shape of his nose. The purpose of the voyage was to actually prove that God DOES exist. But Darwin collected his own information and came up with the theory independently, to the distress of his companion who travelled the streets of London holding the Bible aloft and shouting "The Book, The Book!"

Social conditioning caused people to believe in these wacky theories. In time, christianity will become the minority, if it's not already. Other ideas simply weren't around back in Darwins day. The idea that we may have evolved from apes was a real slap to the face for 19th century religion. The more science proves where we came from, ect, the better. all that had happened so far with Christianity is that people have changed their views. It's changed from "God made everything" to "God made science which made everything" which is a real retreat from the position of the church hundreds of years ago. It's only going to happen more until everyone realised "Dear God, there is none!"

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if you could choose your ancestors, and grow just like a weed
pick a stud to congeal your blood and get your earlobes free

Or given enough time, science just might prove God's existence. That's a real leap of faith you just made, FA. But don't worry. The atheists of the 18th century thought their theories would destroy the Christian faith, too.

Interesting point about Galileo. What got him into trouble was not so much his scientific theories (although not very popular), but the fact he made some ad homenem attacks against the pope.

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and look at how the number of christians have dwindled over the years! i only have to read my local paper to see the preist rant on about low attendance, about how modern society is turning it's back on god. Turn, i say, turn!

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if you could choose your ancestors, and grow just like a weed
pick a stud to congeal your blood and get your earlobes free

Gee, I might have to play Tyrannosaur for "the other side"! I'm with Didymus this time.

Religion itself isn't really the problem. Human nature is. Scott Adams wrote in The Dilbert Principle that people usually arrive at a conclusion and then search for evidence that supports it -- certainly true, as I discovered for myself long before reading the book. (I admit I do this myself, sometimes. It's human.) Religion is just one of the many things that people can use for rationalizing things -- you know, for instance, that the KKK invokes the name of God for in their hate-preaching. But I don't think religion is responsible for the KKK. Idiocy is. They just use religion has a vehicle to try and justify (and propagate) that idiocy.

How can you prove that religion caused the problem? Keep in mind the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. could probably be explained by being political rather than religious -- just under the sheep's clothing of religion. I would suggest those events were about power, not God.

- Kef

religion still provided the cover they needed.

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if you could choose your ancestors, and grow just like a weed
pick a stud to congeal your blood and get your earlobes free

But your answer seems to be to throw out all the babies and keep the bathwater. I do not see how atheism offers any solutions to any of the problems you claim are caused by religion. People are always going to fight wars. Just look at 18th century France. After they destroyed the monarchy and expelled the church, they began a reign of terror. And what about the Nazis, who considered themselves genetically superior to other races and used that as an excuse to exterminate millions of "inferiors." I don't know if you are old enough to remember some of the atrocities the Soviet Union, an atheistic state, committed while it was still in power. Or China, a current atheistic state, and the atrocities it has committed.

It seems most likely--and Kef testifies to this--that people are just plain nuts. They do all sorts of horrible things, then look for any excuse to justify them. If a Bible happens to be handy, they try to justify their actions according to it. If not, then they can find just about any reason, such as genetic superiority, purity of the national politic, or even the "common good" of the people. Who knows? It might one day even be the US Constitution!

Oh, and lets not forget that religions very often maintain hospitals and other charitable organizations that actually try to help people, like Lutheran Senior Services (the people I work for), the Sisters of Mercy hospital, etc.

Oh, and thanks for chiming in, Kef.

^ Kef's T-Rex

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i didn't say christians were bad people, i said the people who use religion for their attrocities were.

for a really great faq go to http://www.atheists.org

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if you could choose your ancestors, and grow just like a weed
pick a stud to congeal your blood and get your earlobes free

People who use any justification for an atrocity are bad (of course, so are the very rare people who thought of no justification). But it's not the justification that's the problem because 999 times out of 1000 they had already made up their minds.

- Kef

I wholeheartedly agree with you, fossiledude. I hate the fact that they are giving a bad name to honest, hard-working, kindly people like myself, my fellow chaplains, and almost everyone I've encountered at Lutheran Senior Services, both staff and residents.

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I myself am an atheist but I do not hate anyone or would discourage someone who believes in something. People who have their own religion have respect for other people's religion as well. But that doesn't not mean that I have the right to judge on something that I am not familar with. I do know it gives hope for people and I am glad for people having that. I do to but not in a religious way. People who are atheist and make fun of other people for believing in god or something like that are just plainly ignorant. It's kinda like a debate for gays and straights. Think of this: why are most people against gays? My theory is because of how the reproduction system is set up in the world. For humans at least, the women needs the male's sperm in order to keep the cylce of life going. If life were to be that it should be a gender to have interations with the same sex, then a woman and a man having a relationship would be odd and wrong. If this offended anyone, I am truly sorry and I'm only trying to express my self just like everyone is in this forum.

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Thanks, dysthymia. This thread is not mainly against atheists like yourself, who simply know what they believe, but mainly against those feel like it's their mission in life to try to prove us wrong. I do not feel like you have tried to prove anybody wrong, dysthymia, but only offered your own thoughts on the topic.

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I, honestly, hate people venemously opposed to religion about as much as I hate people venemously opposed to atheism/agnosticism/any religious belief not theirs, as they're opposite ends of the same coin: the latter tries to forcibly convert you while the former tries to forcibly make you see that your religious beliefs are utter garbage. (A conversion of a different sort, if you will.)

All I can personally say is I'm an agnostic with a "live and let live" approach to religion/non-religion. As long as your beliefs aren't causing harm to yourself or others, I say go for it.

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Yeah. Shut up, kid.

And most argumentation is based on the assumption that if you can logically demonstrate a point, people will get it.

(1) not all points are logically demonstrable, and this is true for both sides of the argument. Even if you think it makes perfect sense, someone starting with a completely different set of presuppositions will not see it the same way.

(2) people can and will very easily dismiss your logic, even when it is ironclad and airtight, unless you can connect with them on a much deeper level. Emotions play a much more powerful role in people's beliefs than many of us are willing to admit. And that goes for both sides.

As for myself, I am a trained professional theologian engaged in the art of pastoral care. My whole life hinges around my faith; to destroy my faith is essentially to destroy my life. Does that mean I am afraid to let my faith be challenged? Absolutely not. Just keep in mind that I am sworn to a life of faith, and I am in a position where that faith is constantly being exercised. Like Job, I have been tested. I have found that the answers I like don't always fit. But at the same time, my faith has remained, shaken and a little roughed up, but stronger for it. Will a logical argument convince me I am wrong? Not when I have to wake up and go to work tomorrow and minister to people who wait near the edge of death.

But I imagine it is the same for everyone who posts on this thread. Kef's skepticism is just as much a part of who he is as my Christian faith is a part of who I am. So am I going to convince him that Jesus is indeed God incarnate? Probably not. But I hope that these threads will help someone to understand who I am and why I do what I do. That's all I can hope for. "Here I stand; I cannot do otherwise. God help me."

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You forget, you don't have to go to church, to be a christian.

Actually, you might want to reconsider that. The Scriptures do tell us, "Do not forsake the gathering of the saints, as some have." One might not need to attend church to be a Christian, but I cannot imagine a Christian being fully Christian apart from the fellowship of the body of Christ. After all, if you cut your hand off, do you think it would survive very long on its own?

And welcome back, Dr. Zaius. I was wondering when you'd come back.

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I'm pantheist, not atheist. But I'll answer anyway. I think that organised religion is false, and that it stops people from realising the nature of the universe and the human race's place in it. But I don't care if a person is religious or not, as long as they're a nice person. One of my best friends is a committed Christian.

But there is one aspect of religion for which I don't like its followers: people who commit atrocities or claim power "because God wants them to". This applies to Osama bin Laden, the Crusaders in medieval times, and George W Bush.

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"They've taken Mr Rimmer! Sir, they've taken Mr Rimmer!"
"Quick, let's get outta here before they bring him back!"

And just how do you expect people to do that on their own, by themselves, without some kind of aid or guide? And if you expect people to adopt your particular religious philosophy, then what are you doing except creating religious organization?

As I've already stated in another thread, pantheism is a self-contradicting philosophy, anyway. You cannot possibly tell me that Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and that German guy whose name you're not supposed to use in forums--along with all the atrocities they committed--are God. These things reflect a universe that is SEPARATED from God. But if the universe is SEPARATED from God, then the universe cannot possibly be God.

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You're looking at "God" in the wrong way. When you say "God", you're thinking of the benevolent Christian God. I don't believe that the universe is the benevolent Christian God. I believe that God is defined as the universe.

Are you really not allowed to say "Hitler"? I didn't know that.

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"They've taken Mr Rimmer! Sir, they've taken Mr Rimmer!"
"Quick, let's get outta here before they bring him back!"