Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

A companion to the Homestar Runner Wiki
It is currently Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:11 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Genetic Engineering ----?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:00 am
Posts: 3849
Location: Best Coast
So, I was just doing a project the other day and now I'm wondering, what do guys think about this type of stuff? Should people be allowed to choose the eye color of their children? Should genes only be modified to treat diseases? Is cloning of humans okay? YELL WHAT U THINK!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:01 am
Posts: 6245
I'm not too knowledgable on the subject, but I don't think it should be used unless, a) it'll be used to prevent some sort of disease or disorder, or b) the person who is being "modified" agrees. Since an unborn baby can't talk, b is kinda uneeded in the cases of mdifying the genes before the child is born, which, to my unknowledgable knowledge is the only way to do it, so it really shouldn't be used unless it can save a life, or improve one by getting rid of a disease.

However, I'm even a bit unsure about using it at all. Not because of morals, but because of experience. If, today, I could change whether or not I'd been born with albinism, I wouldn't change it. Because my eyes don't work as well, my hearing is much better; I've been said by a few guitar teachers that I could have perfect pitch. This one's just a theory, but it may also help the sides of my brain communicate better. My case may be minor, but think of Steven Hawkings, his ingenious mind could be partially due, somehow, to his disease. Therefore, even though disorders like albinism are, well, bad, their "side-effects" can be helpful

But then there are things like fatal diseases that kill offspring once they are born. Those should defenitely be genetically changed, in my opinion. But other than that, I can't be sure..


Last edited by Ju Ju Master on Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:09 am
Posts: 8987
Location: He remembered Socks!
well listen, if i could customize my 2005 Scion XL, why shouldnt i be able to customize my children? wait...

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
Because, unlike your 2005 Scion XL, your children are living beings.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:09 am
Posts: 8987
Location: He remembered Socks!
Didymus wrote:
Because, unlike your 2005 Scion XL, your children are living beings.


my scion has feelings.... :-(

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:45 pm
Posts: 5441
Location: living in the sunling, loving in the moonlight, having a wonderful time.
I have mixed views on this, as while I love sciency things, there are moral guidlines that should be followed, but even there those are fuzzy in this arena, so you almost have to take it case by case.

In general, I think that genetic engineering in food can be used to great benefits to the world, such as this rice that they came out with that grew easier and was several times more nutricious and was hailed as a large step towards solving world hunger in third world nations.

In humans, I think it could be used in certain cases to help treat diseases when life and death are at stake (but beyond that I'm unsure like in growing human organs in pigs or mice for organ donations) I'm definitely opposed to "designer engineering" for trivial things such as eye color and whatnot. It's things like those that help add up to the individual and form who they are in life.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
Only if it has "53" painted on the side.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 377
Location: Free Country USA
I have no problem with a lot of forms of genetic engineering for the post part, and that includes designer engineering. Exploring the possibilities that can be made with life's codebase--I mentioned elsewhere, arguing that engineering pigs to glow in the dark has profound implications. If you can eventually design organic lights (like glow-in-the-dark trees) you can save on lighting costs tremendously. Rural and suburban roads could be lit with roadside glowing trees.

Cloning in the traditional sense (pow zap now there are two of you) makes me jittery. The kind of cloning they're doing NOW (inserting your existing DNA into a zygote) doesn't seem so bad ...

I don't have an opinion on "baby engineering" as it were. I can see the arguments Didy makes about it (babies can't tell you what they want to look like), but it just doesn't seem that terrible--now what WOULD be terrible is to force these changes midstream rather than when the baby is still just a zygote or embroyo or whatnot.

Transgender disphoria is caused by such changes midstream and it causes people born with it a lot of grief. :/

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
Anybody ever seen that move Gattaca?

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:33 pm
Posts: 269
i'm all for genetic engineering! we've been tampering with nature for thousands of years. we've become really good at it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:35 am 
Offline
Pizza Pizza
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:05 pm
Posts: 10451
Location: probably the penalty box
I got no problems with the whole "preventing your child from having some sort of genetic disease" idea, but when it comes to vanity things, like picking your child's eye or hair color, it's going a little too far.

It always irks me to see vanity stand in the way of people who are truly ill.

_________________
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 5:21 am
Posts: 2140
Location: My Backyard
Didymus wrote:
Anybody ever seen that move Gattaca?


That was the first thought I had... Uma Thurman is so hot... err... what were we talking about?

I think we are a ways off from the world Gattaca is.

In the last year, two of my wife's relatives have had babies with problems. One has a genetic disorder called Cri Du Chat and the other had Trisomy 18, or Edward's Syndrome. The first is a happy little boy who has some mild developmental problems so far, they won't really know the extent until he gets older. The second baby died less than a day after she was born.

Do I think that either of these families would have changed the outcome if that chance was presented to them? Not a chance. A lot of that has to do with the type of people both of these couples are. I also look at each of the parents and I think that they are stronger because of their experiences.

Does that mean we shouldn't experiment with human genes? I don't think so. I think that a lot of good can come out of research like this (much like I think that a lot of good can come out of stem cell research). I have my own set of problems that are possibly due to genetic issues. I would jump at the chance to fix them with a "simple" gene alteration. It would save me a lot of grief 15 years down the road when I am looking for a liver donor, or perhaps it could have saved my colon...

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:15 pm
Posts: 2507
I say it might do wanders for beef production, but the idea of changing or cloning people brings up several red lights.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 377
Location: Free Country USA
StrongRad wrote:
It always irks me to see vanity stand in the way of people who are truly ill.


Hmm ... I dunno if cosmetics stand in the way of curing illness. I'm inclined to think not, or at least not always--any sort of cosmetic technology (plastic surgery, etc.) is pretty darned expensive. I don't think cosmetics are covered by healthcare anyhow.

Barring the military's recent "we'll pay for your breast implants" stuff, that is.

I'd think the injection of money by people who can afford cosmetics like that does help fuel the medical industry in some ways. This isn't something I've extensively researched or studied, just a hunch.

That said, we do have to be careful when toying with genetics. Like every technology and every human concept, it can be abused and used for evil purpose. But I think we already have been exposed to that dark possibility by science fiction and what not.

Quote:
Anybody ever seen that move Gattaca?


I have. It's kind of a creepy distopia, with the genetic discrimination. However, with genetic engineering that sort of future shouldn't really happen by default--I mean, in such a society where you have the technology to identify what ails a person and how long they might live from the moment they're born, surely you'd be able to apply that technology to fix those problems!

I think the film's producer argued that such a society is very possible from a modern day standpoint, that insurance companies already discriminate in this fashion, and that there are very legitimate reasons why space agencies would weed out all but the healthiest astronauts.

I dunno, though. I don't think it'd happen easily in the U.S. It probably would not happen in Europe or Canada either--likely any sort of gene therapy will be covered by the government as part of a health care package, I'd think.

In the U.S., though, it MIGHT be possible for a Gattaca-like future to develop if gene therapy is so expensive for even half or a quarter of the country's population to benefit from ...

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Royse City, TX
Part of the problem with doing genetic engineering on humans is that the results aren't failproof. If you found me a miracle scientist who could do a little tweak and in 100% of cases change the height, eye-color, down syndrome gene, susceptibility to breast cancer, etc. without damaging or killing the embryo, then fine, I guess. But for every kid who turned out fine from the experience, there would be hundreds of kids that would have turned out fine but suffered extreme and random side effects from the engineering. Especially in the beginning, it would be a terrible risk of human lives as they toyed around trying to get the process just right.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:59 pm 
racerx_is_alive wrote:
Part of the problem with doing genetic engineering on humans is that the results aren't failproof. If you found me a miracle scientist who could do a little tweak and in 100% of cases change the height, eye-color, down syndrome gene, susceptibility to breast cancer, etc. without damaging or killing the embryo, then fine, I guess. But for every kid who turned out fine from the experience, there would be hundreds of kids that would have turned out fine but suffered extreme and random side effects from the engineering. Especially in the beginning, it would be a terrible risk of human lives as they toyed around trying to get the process just right.


I would agree with Racerx.

While curing a disease based upon genetic engenering, like curing aids, is a very good endeavor. I don't think that we could perfect it. Or even do it safely. People are extreamly complex. We only know a fraction of what makes people work. So expermenting with genetics seems like it would be more harmful then good. Though, I will state that, if we could find a way to stop a disease, then we should attept it.

As for cloning and chosing your childrens eye colour, no. God made us the way we are. And that is that.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:07 am
Posts: 1267
Location: In Bibendum's tire fold.
Genetic Research is fine by me. Stem Cell research is fine by me. I wouldn't mind if somebody developed a way to choose what your child looked like because I know it would get little support from Americans.

Genetically enhanced food on the otherhand is a GREAT idea. Being able to make foods that grown in intolerable climates is the first step to help end world hunger.

_________________
TIRES TIRES TIRES


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
In general, I don't have a problem with genetic engineering, because much more good than bad can come from it. As for cosmetic purposes, I'm not sure about that. I can't say I LIKE the idea of choosing to give your child blue eyes, and I wouldn't do that sort of thing myself, but it's not like your child has any choice about his/her eye color in the first place. I can see the argument that, so long as the child has no choice anyway, you may as well get the child of your dreams. Who's it gonna hurt?

On the other hand, I kinda worry about what kind of genes somebody like Michael Jackson might pick for his child...

- Kef


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 377
Location: Free Country USA
For Racerx and Alexander:

All the extensive genetic manipulation that's been done with animals, plans, and stem cells are to get past that learning curve. If genetic engineering--direct manipulation of genes--had never been done before and they were going to try it on humans, I'd agree with you guys. But they've been doing this mostly on non-humans.

For example, when they tried tweaking the telom... end capsule things on DNA strands, they did this on rats. The rats got massive tumors. From there we experienced the danges inherent in genetic engineering without risking the lives of human beings.

I don't think they'd openly try manipulating living humans until they had success rates comparable to current surgery operations.

Of course, this kind of stuff just drives PETA insane ...

Quote:
On the other hand, I kinda worry about what kind of genes somebody like Michael Jackson might pick for his child...


Clearly he'd want genes for a Moonwalk reflex.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:37 pm 
To: Trev-Mun
From: Alexander

I understand that genetic experements are being tested on plants and animals. That's not the situation I have a problem with.

It's that I do not think that geneticists will be able to find a proper and safe way to contend with someone's genetic make-up.

As I stated before, people are extreamly complex. We don't even know how children are made scientificly.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 1809
Location: lol.
Alexander wrote:

As I stated before, people are extreamly complex. We don't even know how children are made scientificly.


Well, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much...

Err...

Personally I wouldn't see anything wrong with it if they could make it safe. Which I think is very feasible. If they can splice spider genes into goats, why not shark genes into people(I really like that bioelectric sense)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 15581
Location: Hey! I'm looking for some kind of trangly thing!
Quote:
Well, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much...

ROFFLE! ROFFLE! ROFFLE!

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:54 am
Posts: 271
Location: Wisconsin
Alexander wrote:
God made us the way we are. And that is that.

I'm not even going to go there. But anyway...
I personally think genetic engineering for vanity reasons is a downright evil thing. I hated the presentation we got of genetic engineering in science class, where there were nothing but smiling scientists going "GENETIC ENGINEERING IS THE FUTURE!" I only sat, thinking of the side effects that could come with this. But some people never give up on that sort of thing.....when it comes to vanity...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
The Human Pumpkin wrote:
I personally think genetic engineering for vanity reasons is a downright evil thing.


Why?

- Kef


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:54 am
Posts: 271
Location: Wisconsin
furrykef wrote:
The Human Pumpkin wrote:
I personally think genetic engineering for vanity reasons is a downright evil thing.


Why?

- Kef


It's messing with what naturally happens, and is wasting time on other unborn babies who actually need the engineering.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:11 am
Posts: 18942
Location: Sitting in an English garden, waiting for the sun
Besides, Vanity is one of the 7 Deadly sins! :p

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
We mess with what naturally happens all the time. Heck, we even do that with genetics already, by selective breeding. Sure, once the egg and the seed meet, the offspring come about in a natural fashion, but we're still controlling what genes a given plant or creature ends up with.

I don't think it would come to pass that vanity genetic engineering would take time away from people who need it. It could be like plastic surgery, for example. I don't think anybody feels that plastic surgeons are taking time away from people who need surgery for medical reasons.

- Kef


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 377
Location: Free Country USA
You know, this kind of stuff can be expanded into a more fundamental argument of "is there room for comfort/luxury or should we focus entirely on necessity?"

I mean, the line of thought that argues against "deisgner" or "vanity" or "cosmetic" engineering is that it's not needed and, more importantly takes away from time and energy and capital that could be spent on more necessary things.

I dunno, that lkind of argument, to me, leads inevitably to a luddite/spartan position. Do I really NEED a personal computer, or a fast internet connection? Shouldn't I be trying for a job that's directly beneficial to society rather than trying to get into the computer games industry? Or moreover, what good are artists to society? They just loaf around, not producing more food, or researching better technology, keeping the peace, or saving lives. Those bums should get a real job!

Really, think about that for a second. I assume most of you guys got video game consoles of one type or another, or games for your computers. Do you really NEED them? Couldn't the materials and money spent to produce those games and that game console go towards people who need it? The time you spend playing those games, couldn't you be doing something productive?

It's kind of disquieting when you think about it, and it's easy to get the feeling that everything we do is some form of vanity, pride, gluttony, or slothfulness. However, we as humans aren't soulless robots--robots, ideally, require very basic needs (power and maitenance) and they'll run forever doing thier job. Psychologists realized that we as humans are more complex, organic, intelligent and social creatures, and we have more complex needs--and more of them!

A good example of that is Abraham Maslow's heiarchy of needs, which are layers of needs that form a pyramid of sorts. There's the basic needs at the bottom which are fundamental--physiological stuff, like food and water. If they aren't filled, well, you know the consequenses. If you fill them, you feel nothing. Beyond that you've got other basic needs--safety and security, love and belonging, and self-esteem. Then there's self-actualization at the top. There's also different versions of this needs heiarchy that focus on conative needs, cognitive needs, aesthetic needs and neurotic needs. We've all got them.

Each layer also takes precedence over the layer above it. So if one of the bottom ones is unfufilled you'll think more about that, probably, than ones before it. So lemme go back to the example from before ...

Why DID you buy that console, or those games? Because you want to have time to yourself, to play them and have fun, a break from the pressures of life as it were. Unless you love your work, you can only do so much of it until you burn out, and you need time to do something else stimulating and entertaining until you're ready to hit the deck once more. You're filling needs, as it were.

We can look at a lot of the "luxury" items for improving one's appearance in the same way. Vanity as it were, is an excessively prideful state of mind, in which you think you're so awesome that no one else can compare. The tale of Lucifer is like that--and what happened to him?

But if you're, say, wanting to improve your appearance in whatever means, that's not vanity, that's lack of self-esteem! You're seeking to fufill that lack of esteem about yourself. And if you do get whatever you were wanting done--like, say, you wanted to be taller and you underwent a procedure to grow taller--that doesn't necessarily mean you'll think youorself first among equals, just that you've fufilled a part of that need to feel better about yourself.

That's why I object to the line of thought that genetic engineering for cosmetic purposes is inherently prideful and vainful. If someone wants it done to them, I say let them. We already pursit improving our physical appearance on many other, more basic levels (such as painting one's nails or getting a haircut), why is this any different? Why is this a hallmark of vanity instead of fufilling a need to improve one's self-esteem?

That said, my feelings about cosmetic engineering taking away resources that could be used for medical engineering haven't changed, but now I have an example to demonstrate why I feel that cosmetics won't take away from medical purposes.

Let's take a look at the space industry. NASA's trying to gear up for more scientific missions, and needs to fufill its objectives for completing the ISS and replacing the Shuttle with something newer and better. Many other space agencies (especially Russia) are in the same boat, or an even leakier one.

Surely there's no room for space tourists! These loafers just waste money, rocket fuel, and precious material that could have been put towards resupplying the ISS or launching a beneficial sattelite! But no, we got Dennis Tito wasting capital just so he can play astronaut! How prideful is that?!

That's how the anti-cosmetic engineering argument sounds from a space tourism perspective. Now think about this:

Tito spent 20 million dollars to go into space. That kind of money injected into the space industry by 'pridfeul' or 'wasteful' tourists will only help, not hurt more scientific endeavors.

That's how I view genetic engineering done for cosmetic purposes. People wanting to feel better about themselves, to improve something about their appearance--they're not being vainful. Moreover, they're funding the genetic engineering industry overall!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:11 am
Posts: 18942
Location: Sitting in an English garden, waiting for the sun
Why do I think that genetic engineering is going to lead to different "breeds" of humans? Scientists could refine & tinker with the human genome until they come up with the best genotype for each region of the Earth, profession, sport, etc.

Genetic engineering's going to destroy the Earth; be happy with what God gave you.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 1809
Location: lol.
IantheGecko wrote:
Why do I think that genetic engineering is going to lead to different "breeds" of humans? Scientists could refine & tinker with the human genome until they come up with the best genotype for each region of the Earth, profession, sport, etc.

Genetic engineering's going to destroy the Earth; be happy with what God gave you.


Why not have the best genotype for everything? What's wrong with that? It sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

And how would that be different from just using a machine? If you're against making people better fit to their role, perhaps you should be against forklifts because they help people move things, or against cars and planes because they get us from place to place. If a machine, which God obviously didn't make, can make a human better suited to a situation, why not cut out the middleman, so to speak, and just modify the human itself?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group