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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:09 am 
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Yeah ... it's not like we haven't performed less direct forms of this over the ages. Analogy wise, abacui and adding machines are to computer science what breeding and domestication's been to genetic engineering.

I would honestly prefer a future of genetically engineered humans over a future of machine rule.

Any technology we pursue is going to have dark sides that can cause harm or death. This is unavoidable, and already we have reached that potential of ending life on Earth with nuclear technology. Does that invalidate nuclear power? Well, most are spooked by nuclear technolgy in general, but personally I think that throwing the baby out with the bath water is absurd.

Or rather, in this case, we're throwing the baby out and keeping the bath water, since people are opposed to nuke reactors yet we still have thousands of nuclear warheads across the world.

Someone eventually is going to push genetic engineering, and if it's not used for good, it will be used for evil. I think it's important that people keep abreast of technology. Develophing sophisticated technology and an insdustry of genetic engineering just might save us if a rogue nation pushes genetic engineering as well and develops a supervirus, for example.

I guess you could simplify this particular argument by saying "the only thing needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." If the world community doesn't regulate and manage genetic engineering and promote careful development of it ... the consequences may be dire.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:12 am 
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Heh, yeah, don't even get me started on nuclear power. Most people don't even have a clue as to how it works or what it's all about, including most of those who strongly oppose it.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:20 am 
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furrykef wrote:
Heh, yeah, don't even get me started on nuclear power. Most people don't even have a clue as to how it works or what it's all about, including most of those who strongly oppose it.

- Kef

That's why I think most people are against it... They don't understand it.

Kinda like genetically modified food. People are all "I don't want that stuff in my body!" but they go to the garden store and buy hybrid seed corn or hybrid beans or something similar. Hybrid vegetables are just plants that have been cross bred. It's a low tech version of genetic modding.

I don't have any problems with GM foods. I don't even have a real problem with screening for (and correcting) genetic diseases/disorders. It does scare me, though when people start talking about picking your child's hair color, eye color, etc. Choices like that are for the sake of vanity, and that's heading toward the "perfect child"... It's not a far cry from "perfect child" to "supreme race".

Also, we've all seen how some parents dope their kids up with one medication or another to turn them into obidient zombies, what's to stop them from skipping the medication altogether and just having the kid modded in utero to come out a perfect zombie?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:48 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
what's to stop them from skipping the medication altogether and just having the kid modded in utero to come out a perfect zombie?


The law, most likely.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:10 am 
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Santa Zeno wrote:
Why not have the best genotype for everything? What's wrong with that? It sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

And how would that be different from just using a machine? If you're against making people better fit to their role, perhaps you should be against forklifts because they help people move things, or against cars and planes because they get us from place to place. If a machine, which God obviously didn't make, can make a human better suited to a situation, why not cut out the middleman, so to speak, and just modify the human itself?
Because humans are God's creation; let God make & mold each one to His liking, & we will produce the environment for them to grow.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:30 am 
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I don't see a problem with genetic engineering at all, as long as it is used responsibly and is not allowed to fall into the wrong hands.

I wouldn't mind the option of deciding how tall my kid would be, or whether it's a boy or girl. I don't see how it could do harm, though there are obviously factors I am unaware of and that will not become visible until human genetic engineering becomes widespread.

Essentially, I think that, like any other medical procedure, genetic engineering should undergo the most strenuous testing to determine all the pros and cons before we allow it to become a widespread procedure.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:46 am 
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furrykef wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
what's to stop them from skipping the medication altogether and just having the kid modded in utero to come out a perfect zombie?


The law, most likely.

- Kef

Good point.
Too bad the law doesn't prevent people from doping up their kids to turn them into zombies.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:50 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
Because humans are God's creation; let God make & mold each one to His liking, & we will produce the environment for them to grow.


Not the strongest argument for those who don't believe in God... ;)

- Kef


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:29 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
Santa Zeno wrote:
Why not have the best genotype for everything? What's wrong with that? It sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

And how would that be different from just using a machine? If you're against making people better fit to their role, perhaps you should be against forklifts because they help people move things, or against cars and planes because they get us from place to place. If a machine, which God obviously didn't make, can make a human better suited to a situation, why not cut out the middleman, so to speak, and just modify the human itself?
Because humans are God's creation; let God make & mold each one to His liking, & we will produce the environment for them to grow.


Then by your logic, we shouldn't use medicine to help people with inherited diseases, because it interferes with God's design.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:45 am 
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I'm with Santa Zeno on this one, if we didn't do stuff because God didn't make it, we'd still live in caves. Did it ever occur that maybe God invented us to be creative and invent our own things?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:51 am 
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Furrykef wrote:
Not the strongest argument for those who don't believe in God... ;)


For some of us who believe in God, it's not a strong argument either.

I personally don't see why God would not allow genetic engineering. My understanding of Genesis is that, as the sentient species of this planet, God's given us stewardship. He specifically says to grow or subdue as we see fit ... the commandment as I read it felt very general.

We are indeed God's creation, but if this were a company, I feel that our divine CEO is allowing us line managers free-reign in the affairs of our world. (You can tell that my college education is driving me nuts ... ) It's not like we're voting to fire God or plotting to have Him overthrown.

StrongRad wrote:
That's why I think most people are against it... They don't understand it.

Kinda like genetically modified food. People are all "I don't want that stuff in my body!" but they go to the garden store and buy hybrid seed corn or hybrid beans or something similar. Hybrid vegetables are just plants that have been cross bred. It's a low tech version of genetic modding.


Here's the funny thing, concering environmentalists/naturalists who know little about a technology ... Greenpeace is protesting against research in fusion reactors. FUSION REACTORS!!

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The project experienced large opposition from environmental groups such as Greenpeace. "Pursuing nuclear fusion and the ITER project is madness," said Bridget Woodman of Greenpeace. "Nuclear fusion has all the problems of nuclear power, including producing nuclear waste and the risks of a nuclear accident." [9] "Governments should not waste our money on a dangerous toy which will never deliver any useful energy," said Jan Vande Putte of Greenpeace International. Instead, they should invest in renewable energy which is abundantly available, not in 2080 but today".[10]


Quote:
Proponents believe that much of the ITER criticism is misleading and uneducated, in particular the allegations of the experiment's "inherent danger". The stated goals for a commercial fusion power station design are that the amount of radioactive waste produced will be hundreds of times less than that of a fission reactor, that it will produce no long-lived radioactive waste, and that it will be impossible for any fusion reactor to undergo a large-scale runaway chain reaction. This is because the amount of fuel planned to be contained in a fusion reactor chamber (about one-tenth of a gram of deuterium and tritium) is only enough to sustain the reaction for about a minute, whereas a fission reactor contains about a year's supply of fuel (100 tons of uranium and plutonium). Proponents note that large-scale fusion power, if it works, will be able to produce electricity on demand and with virtually zero pollution (zero gaseous CO2/SO2/NOx by-products are made)


Greenpeace calls fusion reactors ... "Toys?!" What the snick?! Besides--compared to fossil fuels and even nuclear fission reactors, why are they so adamant about opposing fusion?! If we don't develop potent alternatives for power plants before fossil fuel runs out, the consequences will be far more severe than anything Greenpeace imagines will happen with fusion ...

It makes me wonder just how much they understand GM crops, too ... e_e

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It does scare me, though when people start talking about picking your child's hair color, eye color, etc. Choices like that are for the sake of vanity, and that's heading toward the "perfect child"... It's not a far cry from "perfect child" to "supreme race".


Pfft. The racial supremacists have been doing this long before we could even poke at DNA strands. If you ever get the time, look up what happened in the U.S., Germany, and a mess of other European nations at the turn of the last century concerning eugenics.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:57 am 
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OK... Greenpeace obviously knows nothing about fusion reactors... they must have heard the word "nuclear" and turned their brains off.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:08 am 
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Wait...Greenpeace people have brains?



Burned

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:14 am 
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Dactyl wrote:
Wait...Greenpeace people have brains?



Burned

OMG! Burned!

[toastpaint]Yeah, Exxon and those people have our best interests in mind. We don't need environmental groups.[/toastpaint]


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:17 am 
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The Human Pumpkin wrote:
Dactyl wrote:
Wait...Greenpeace people have brains?



Burned

OMG! Burned!

[toastpaint]Yeah, Exxon and those people have our best interests in mind. We don't need environmental groups.[/toastpaint]

Little hint... Toastpaint isn't used to keep steering things further off topic.

TOASTPAINT

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:25 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
The Human Pumpkin wrote:
Dactyl wrote:
Wait...Greenpeace people have brains?



Burned

OMG! Burned!

[toastpaint]Yeah, Exxon and those people have our best interests in mind. We don't need environmental groups.[/toastpaint]

Little hint... Toastpaint isn't used to keep steering things further off topic.

TOASTPAINT

Little hint... It was a toastpaint.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:38 am 
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O-kay guys, I think you've painted enough toast. You guys are like a stone-drunk Bob Ross armed with spraypaint gun inside a Wonder-Bread factory!

Do you guys think an effective way of performing genetic engineering would be through custom-made viruses that spread the wanted DNA through the body?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:47 am 
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Trev-MUN wrote:
O-kay guys, I think you've painted enough toast. You guys are like a stone-drunk Bob Ross armed with spraypaint gun inside a Wonder-Bread factory!

Do you guys think an effective way of performing genetic engineering would be through custom-made viruses that spread the wanted DNA through the body?


Now THAT is an interesting idea. However, what if the virus goes awry and puts all the DNA in your feces, thereby sending it through the sewers and...

I'm thinking too much here.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:52 am 
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Trev-MUN wrote:
You guys are like a stone-drunk Bob Ross armed with spraypaint gun inside a Wonder-Bread factory!


Haha.

Quote:
Do you guys think an effective way of performing genetic engineering would be through custom-made viruses that spread the wanted DNA through the body?


I dunno, this sounds risky if it'll even work. I don't think it'd be very easy to design a virus that is well-behaved and that the immune system will like. Even if it doesn't cause an adverse reaction in most people, somebody's probably going to have an immune system that will reject it. Also, I don't think the effects of changing DNA in an existing creature is well understood. Switching a gene for another one obviously isn't going to be the same thing as having been born with that gene. Scientists are still exploring this idea, though; who knows, maybe they'll find a way to make it work.

'Course, I'm as ignorant as the next guy about this sort of thing anyway...

- Kef


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:32 pm 
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Trev-MUN wrote:
O-kay guys, I think you've painted enough toast. You guys are like a stone-drunk Bob Ross armed with spraypaint gun inside a Wonder-Bread factory!

Do you guys think an effective way of performing genetic engineering would be through custom-made viruses that spread the wanted DNA through the body?


I believe that that's the currently acceptable method for splicing gene sequences. At least in the embryonic state.

As for modifying a current organism, well, I don't think that's possible with any technology we have now, or will have for at least a hundred years. Firstly, you'd have to ensure that the virus would reach every cell in the body, which is certainly no easy task. Also, even if you could get the DNA to change, it isn't as though you would magically just change. It'd be like if you started building a skyscraper, then halfway through changed your blueprints to the Taj Mahal. It'd be extremely dangerous and unpredictable.

No, I think if any modification is to be done, it has to be done at the earliest possible stage of development, i.e. when the child is only a few cells big.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:02 pm 
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Well, as far as genetic engineering to prevent diseases or disorders, I'm fine with it, but when it comes to personal looks, it's going too far. Oh, and I'm also for genetic engineering with food. Mmmm... giant baked potato...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:51 pm 
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Hi Guys wrote:
but when it comes to personal looks, it's going too far.


Why?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:40 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
Hi Guys wrote:
but when it comes to personal looks, it's going too far.


Why?


Because if someone's ugly they just have to deal with it. Like me.

EDIT: That and everyone will look the same, and I would be really scared...

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Because there are some things DNA can't decide. With cons come pros. Like I said before, my albinism has helped me a lot through experience with it. You could attempt to make the perfect human, but you would fail. DNA is only the beginning of a person.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:07 pm 
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Ju Ju Master wrote:
DNA is only the beginning of a person.


This is a good point. One time they cloned a cat, and the clone ended up looking nothing like the parent.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:08 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
I got no problems with the whole "preventing your child from having some sort of genetic disease" idea, but when it comes to vanity things, like picking your child's eye or hair color, it's going a little too far.
That's what I think, it would just become a mess just like plastic surgery and stuff.

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Why is plastic surgery "a mess"?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:04 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
Ju Ju Master wrote:
DNA is only the beginning of a person.


This is a good point. One time they cloned a cat, and the clone ended up looking nothing like the parent.


And it's not just that, the way a person acts isn't determined by DNA, it's determined by experience. If you were a person with no DNA-type flaws, you would experience less negative experiences, and, as has been said in other threads, to know positive, you must know negative, and...

Well, it goes on from there. What I'm trying to say is imperfections are what make us who we are.


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furrykef wrote:
Why is plastic surgery "a mess"?
It started out as just something to repair broken body parts. Say what you want, it's just out of hand if you ask me. People waste tons of money trying to get 'the perfect look' when they are perfectly acceptable the way they are.

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Well, that's their own problem, isn't it?


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