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What is the point of atheism?
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Author:  The Experimental Film [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  What is the point of atheism?
I just have a question for any atheists out there. What is the point? If God doesn't exist, fine, you were right, that's okay.

But what if he does exist?

Are you atheists really condemning yourself to hell, just in case God doesn't exist?

Why not just accept Jesus? Start believing in him, and pray once in a while. That's really all it takes.

When we die, if there isn't a God, you can tell us all, "I told you so". If there is a God, we can tell you that.

Just a thought. I personally think going to church while I'm alive would be better than burning to death but not dying when I'm dead.

Please post your thoughts.
Author:  furrykef [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:31 am ]
Post subject: 
What's the point of Christianity?
Author:  Upsilon [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:49 am ]
Post subject: 
#1: There is no "point" to atheism. It's simply that we atheists believe that God doesn't exist.

#2: The rest of your post is called Pascal's Wager. It's flawed in two major ways. Firstly, the only good point it makes for Christianity is that it would be better if it were true. This doesn't give any reason for it to be true.

Secondly, the argument assumes a clear-cut case of Christianity vs. atheism. It overlooks every other religion in existence. What if you're wrong and get sent to Hell by Allah? If we atheists are to submit to a religion, there's no way of telling which one is the right one.

My dromiceiomimus isn't as big as Kef's tyrannosaur, but it does the job.
Author:  TURKEY [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
"I'll believe whatever saves me [from hell]."
- My girlfriend, a devout Catholic

But as you can see, I'm not too serious on religion.

http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?p=13027#13027
Author:  furrykef [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Upsilon wrote:
#1: There is no "point" to atheism. It's simply that we atheists believe that God doesn't exist.

#2: The rest of your post is called Pascal's Wager. It's flawed in two major ways. Firstly, the only good point it makes for Christianity is that it would be better if it were true. This doesn't give any reason for it to be true.

Secondly, the argument assumes a clear-cut case of Christianity vs. atheism. It overlooks every other religion in existence. What if you're wrong and get sent to Hell by Allah? If we atheists are to submit to a religion, there's no way of telling which one is the right one.


That's more or less what I said with my five words ;) Thanks for bothering to explain what it meant, though.

But a third point (and more subjective) point about Pascal's Wager is this: would a god who cares deeply about whether you believe in him or not really accept your belief if it is only out of convenience? Hardly likely, in my opinion. That's the reason I don't believe in God "just in case", because "just in case" isn't good enough anyway.

There has got to be a name for the logical fallacy of assuming that something should be as obvious to the listener as it is to the speaker. (That is, your argument mostly comes down to "Why can't these idiots see that Jesus is the only way to go?" -- in less condescending terms, of course.) I think it should be called the "everybody is me" fallacy.

- Kef
Author:  Prof. Tor Coolguy [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think athism is a really big way to "stick it to the man" and it kind of got out of hand. I mean it's an entire religion made out of accepting no religion..personally I think that's really strange.
Author:  AgentSeethroo [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the point of atheism?
The Experimental Film wrote:
Why not just accept Jesus? Start believing in him, and pray once in a while. That's really all it takes.


BREEHH! WRONG!

It's not as simple as that.

Read your bible. Those people who just "accepted Jesus" without changing their lives and making him lord will be cast aside. God will say "Away from me, you who practice iniquity. I never knew you."

That's a cop-out.
Author:  The Experimental Film [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the point of atheism?
AgentSeethroo wrote:
The Experimental Film wrote:
Why not just accept Jesus? Start believing in him, and pray once in a while. That's really all it takes.


BREEHH! WRONG!

It's not as simple as that.

Read your bible. Those people who just "accepted Jesus" without changing their lives and making him lord will be cast aside. God will say "Away from me, you who practice iniquity. I never knew you."

That's a cop-out.


Maybe a better word would have been "taken in". For lack of anything different, you have to let him enter your heart. Yes, you do have to change your life, you were right, I was just trying to sum it up.

You'll probably think something is wrong with this too, but I think the Bible is the point of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that no other religions have a 3000 year old (and probably longer) holy writing.

Oh and about the other religions- how's this for a theory. God is testing other religions, and will still accept anyone who truthfully follows it into heaven. When Jesus comes back, he will take all believers into heaven, and start whichever religion worked best on the new Earth. That's my own thought- it's probably completely wrong, but I like it.
Author:  AgentSeethroo [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the point of atheism?
The Experimental Film wrote:
Oh and about the other religions- how's this for a theory. God is testing other religions, and will still accept anyone who truthfully follows it into heaven. When Jesus comes back, he will take all believers into heaven, and start whichever religion worked best on the new Earth. That's my own thought- it's probably completely wrong, but I like it.



Woah. Nuh-uh. Sorry. The bible also says that there is only one way into Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.

The other thing? Woah again. Religion doesn't get you anything. God doesn't CARE about your RELIGION, he cares about your relationship with him and belief on his Son. Consequently, most religions don't really go along with Christianity, so that crosses that one out as well.

I also have to point out that religion is something created by imperfect man, and do you really think that there's any room for imperfect practices in God's perfect heaven? I sure can't see it.



Here's my point. With Christianity, you can't "make up" beliefs. Just because you thought of it, it doesn't make it true, or even close to true.

The bible gives the truth concerning Christianity, and leaves little room to sway on either side.
Author:  Kaffiene [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the point of atheism?
The Experimental Film wrote:
AgentSeethroo wrote:
The Experimental Film wrote:
Why not just accept Jesus? Start believing in him, and pray once in a while. That's really all it takes.


BREEHH! WRONG!

It's not as simple as that.

Read your bible. Those people who just "accepted Jesus" without changing their lives and making him lord will be cast aside. God will say "Away from me, you who practice iniquity. I never knew you."

That's a cop-out.


Maybe a better word would have been "taken in". For lack of anything different, you have to let him enter your heart. Yes, you do have to change your life, you were right, I was just trying to sum it up.

You'll probably think something is wrong with this too, but I think the Bible is the point of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that no other religions have a 3000 year old (and probably longer) holy writing.

Oh and about the other religions- how's this for a theory. God is testing other religions, and will still accept anyone who truthfully follows it into heaven. When Jesus comes back, he will take all believers into heaven, and start whichever religion worked best on the new Earth. That's my own thought- it's probably completely wrong, but I like it.


Christianity is not the "oldest" religion. Judaism is. Jesus was a Jew. Although I am a Christian, I really don't mind people believing in other things. The point of view from an atheist that doesn't believe in God and the Bible might be "Why waste my life on believing in something that doesn't really exist? I should get to live the way I want." and as demonstrated before, the Christian point of view is "Why not believe?"..and so on.
Author:  Kaffiene [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
furrykef wrote:
I'm not trying to convince anybody that they're wrong. I'm trying to get them to acknowledge the merest possibility that they might be.

That's obviously too much for some people. :rolleyes:

- Kef


Hey...I wasn't trying to be rude or mean to you or anyone else!! I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.. I was just saying that as many people have solid religious beliefs..it could be hard to convince them otherwise. But yeah, I do agree with you...that's why I sometimes post in these forums too..why everyone does I'm assuming, just to get their opinion into the public and just to allow others to see your point of view. Even if it doesn't work...
Author:  Brunswick Stu [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the point of atheism?
Christians believe that God exists. atheists do not. it's about belief, not knowing. you can't know, because it's impossible to prove whether or not God exists. if you could, then atheists wouldn't exist, and all the stuff in Christianity about faith and belief would become irrelevant.

so no, atheists aren't going to convert "just in case". why would one do something they didn't believe in?
Author:  fossilise_apostle [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:27 am ]
Post subject: 
if i wanted to be on the safe side, i would just join every religion.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:43 am ]
Post subject: 
That reminds me of an old Bloom County cartoon.
Author:  fossilise_apostle [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:51 am ]
Post subject: 
i can only imagine its been the basis for many episodes of any situation comedy! you've seen when the male character has two dates for the same night so he runs back and forth between them all night until they discover his plan. instead the character would run between the many churches he is meant to visit each sunday!
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Plus all the mosques, temples, synagogues, shrines...
Author:  fossilise_apostle [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:12 am ]
Post subject: 
basically the same thing, different name.
Author:  Upsilon [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
I think athism is a really big way to "stick it to the man" and it kind of got out of hand. I mean it's an entire religion made out of accepting no religion..personally I think that's really strange.


Well, atheism isn't a religion as such, any more than theism is a religion. It's just a category containing beliefs (such as Buddhism, Secular Humanism, Universism), just like theism.

The Experimental Film wrote:
You'll probably think something is wrong with this too, but I think the Bible is the point of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that no other religions have a 3000 year old (and probably longer) holy writing.


Did you do any fact-checking before you turned this in? Ever heard of Judaism? And even before that, the Vedas of Hinduism go back to way before even Judaism was founded.

Kaffiene wrote:
Christianity is not the "oldest" religion. Judaism is.


Wrong again. Hinduism, again, was sitting around listlessly and looking at its watch impatiently by the time Judaism showed up.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's a busy Monday, so I'll admit I kinda skimmed this thread. But I wanted to add that I've heard this argument before, and in fact I've already addressed it in a different thread. It's called:

The Allegory of the Horses

People seem to think that given the choice, choosing Christianity is the "safe" route. But it's nothing of the sort. All things being equal (and they are), following Christ is just as likely to get me sent to some non-Christian god's hell as it is to send me a Christian heaven. The thing about Pascal's Wager is that it's malarkey, because Pascal assumes there are two choices, when in fact there are infinitely many choices, and taking any one route (Christianity, for example) is just as likely to make the true god (if there is one) really, really angry as it is to please.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Back in Pascal's day, there were only two choices. Well, at least as far as what was available to the people of his region (of course, you could nitpick and point out that there was Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, etc., but that was not his main concern). To him, it was either Christianity or skepticism.

Pascal's Wager today would not serve well to convince people convert to Christianity. Pascal himself was not convinced of that in his day. The wager is designed only to get people THINKING about the possibility of religion, not to convince them of its absolute truth. He did not mean to say to us, "Turn, or there's a 49.8749% chance you might burn).

Pascal's hope was that it would perhaps persuade a skeptic to more carefully examine the claims of religion, and not to immediately discount the possibility of the divine. After all, it is a wager, which means that there are risks involved either way.

In fact, the wager itself is based on a rather complex formula that Pascal constructed during his gambling days (he was a mathematician among other things). Most modern formulations of it are rather simplistic.
Author:  Jerome [ Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the point of atheism?
The Experimental Film wrote:
I just have a question for any atheists out there. What is the point? If God doesn't exist, fine, you were right, that's okay.

But what if he does exist?

Are you atheists really condemning yourself to hell, just in case God doesn't exist?

Why not just accept Jesus? Start believing in him, and pray once in a while. That's really all it takes.

When we die, if there isn't a God, you can tell us all, "I told you so". If there is a God, we can tell you that.

Just a thought. I personally think going to church while I'm alive would be better than burning to death but not dying when I'm dead.

Please post your thoughts.


What if all your life it turned out you'd been worshipping the wrong God? You'd feel pretty stupid then, wouldn't you?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, you understand.
Author:  Upsilon [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whether or not Pascal's Wager was obsolete in Pascal's day is irrelevant. There's still no point in using it today.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
The point is that it's supposed to get people Thinking. And I don't believe I used the word "obsolete" either.
Author:  thefreakyblueman [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Frankly, I just don't believe that a just God would condemn people to a "hell" simply because they are confused. Then again, being Jewish, the "Second Coming" isn't mentioned in the Old Testament, nor is any mention of this "hell". But, then again, being fairly loose in religion, I take my own view on these things.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's not for being confused that he condemns people. That's a mistake often made from the somewhat confusing way evangelicals often pose the Gospel as a matter of choice. The condemnation comes by way of being fallen creatures and breaking the law. It is on account of His mercy that God provides a way of escape.

Think about it like this. You're on a sinking ship, and someone directs you to the life boats, even offers to help you reach them. It would be foolish not to accept their aid. The ship is already sinking, there's no helping that. But if you refuse to go to the life boats, then you end up sinking with the ship.
Author:  Plaster-Man [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
It is a belief, and it makes as much sense as Christianity does, if not more.

You'be been told if your not christian your going to hell. But god is a loving being, right? So why would he make those who came from diffrent religions suffer forever?

I personally AM an athiest. I
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Did you even read my post, Plaster-dude? If God says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except by me," who are you to tell him he's wrong?
Author:  thefreakyblueman [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
It's not for being confused that he condemns people. That's a mistake often made from the somewhat confusing way evangelicals often pose the Gospel as a matter of choice. The condemnation comes by way of being fallen creatures and breaking the law. It is on account of His mercy that God provides a way of escape.

Think about it like this. You're on a sinking ship, and someone directs you to the life boats, even offers to help you reach them. It would be foolish not to accept their aid. The ship is already sinking, there's no helping that. But if you refuse to go to the life boats, then you end up sinking with the ship.

Well, you're on the sinking ship, and some person is saying to go on this contraption that may or may not float. How do you know if it's the right one? Either way, why wouldn't the all-powerful being that people call God just reach into the ship and grab you if He loves all creation? He runs the show, so why would He care if you went with some kook with a toilet paper lifeboat?
Author:  TheNintenGenius [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
Think about it like this. You're on a sinking ship, and someone directs you to the life boats, even offers to help you reach them. It would be foolish not to accept their aid. The ship is already sinking, there's no helping that. But if you refuse to go to the life boats, then you end up sinking with the ship.


This is making it sound like a matter of "Christianity" vs. "No Christianity," which is clearly not the case, given the sheer proliferation of religions.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
TheNintenGenius wrote:
which is clearly not the case, given the sheer proliferation of religions.

Who says? Just because other religions exist does not make any of them valid. Jesus seems to have been convinced of his own uniqueness in God's plan. In theology, we call this "the scandal of peculiarity," the fact that God CAN and DOES say, "this way, not that one." If that seems unfair, I suggest you take it up with him. I am only a subordinate.
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