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When someone say "You can't prove that god does not exist.", you can say that they can't prove their god is the only god. There could be an even greater god that the "lesser" god cannot detect.

Because of that, I don't think it is possible even for a god to be all-knowing or all-powerfull, since there's no limmit where you can be 100% certain and say "There's nothing outside my scope of knowledge. I know all.", or "I am the most powerfull being, and I can do anything. And I'll never, ever lose my power."

And I don't really understand what all-loving is supposed to mean. Like, loves everything? Doesn't really look like it in the bible, tough.

Besides, even if there is a god, and the bible is his word, we can't know if he's telling the truth. What if he lied, and spent the last 2000 years laughing at us?

If I came face to face with a god, and it told me it was all-knowing and all-powerfull, I might ask it "How do you know you're all-knowing? Would you be able to tell if you were all-powerfull or not? How can you prove that there's definetly, absolutely, nothing at all, whatsoever, that is more powerfull than you and/or that you do not have any knowledge of?"

Quote:

When someone say "You can't prove that god does not exist.", you can say that they can't prove their god is the only god. There could be an even greater god that the "lesser" god cannot detect.

That is, unless we are looking at the God of the Cross. It would seem to me that, if there were another God more powerful than he, then wouldn't that God have prevented the resurrection to keep the false one from taking credit?

Besides, even if there is a god, and the bible is his word, we can't know if he's telling the truth. What if he lied, and spent the last 2000 years laughing at us?

Didymus wrote:

Quote:

When someone say "You can't prove that god does not exist.", you can say that they can't prove their god is the only god. There could be an even greater god that the "lesser" god cannot detect.

Only if your own assumptions of the motives of such a diety are indeed correct.

Since we have no knowledge whatsoever of such an "Overgod," not even regarding his existence, we can't really say much about such a hypothetical Overgod's supposed motives. It might just be that we'd have to set aside the whole notion of this Overgod's existence and deal only with the revealed God. In short, this theory of an Overgod really doesn't factor in to the equation.

Since we have no knowledge whatsoever of such an "God," not even regarding his existence, we can't really say much about such a hypothetical God's supposed motives. It might just be that we'd have to set aside the whole notion of this God's existence and deal only with the revealed universe. In short, this theory of an God really doesn't factor in to the equation.

Now, if you replace "god" with "universe" and "overgod" with "god", that's basicly how an atheist or agnostic thinks:

And saying the bible indicates a god doesn't really matter much. There are hundreds or mabye even thousands of religions in the world, many with religious texts.

It's not like you become a better or worse Christian by going to church or not. If you go and you don't pay attention or anything it's not like you're growing spiritually.

Exactly, What if the Gods were co-existing with each other? Couldn't it be a possible? Is there more than one? I don't know. If there only one? That again I don't know.

I am very sorry about the incident with the religion forum the other day. I was it a hurry (I was going out to dinner) and wrote down the answers quickly while my caps lock was on. The thank yous were from my computer, it kept putting them out on it's own. And it wouldn't let me post anything else. The following are thought out answers to the forums questions:

1. What do you believe in? Jesus Christ my savior and lord.

2. Why do you believe it? Because I have had a strong religious upbringing and I see things in my everyday life that prove it. There are miracles all around us if you just open your eyes. The bible shows God's love and power and everyday life shows us of his commitment to it.

"Life is like a dark tunnel, let God be your flashlight."
-A. R. Milne

3. Do you believe it's true? Yes, very deeply, God works in events and people around you. Open your eyes and see all that God does, and be saved like countless others.

4. And if, what you believe in, might happen to not be true. How would you respond? I wouldn't believe it. I know there is a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and I will defend that continually.

Also, as for the accusation of a false account, you are partially right, I did make that second account, but, It was just for fun, to let out my gratitude to Homestar Runner. This is my real account, the other was for fun, please don't get to mad.

I hope this will patch things up, please don't get to angry about the fake account. I will be posting some of this on the forum, just to patch things up with others.

Very sorrily,
Sbemailman

Author:	Didymus [ Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:33 pm ]
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Quote: When someone say "You can't prove that god does not exist.", you can say that they can't prove their god is the only god. There could be an even greater god that the "lesser" god cannot detect. That is, unless we are looking at the God of the Cross. It would seem to me that, if there were another God more powerful than he, then wouldn't that God have prevented the resurrection to keep the false one from taking credit? Quote: Because of that, I don't think it is possible even for a god to be all-knowing or all-powerfull, since there's no limmit where you can be 100% certain and say "There's nothing outside my scope of knowledge. I know all.", or "I am the most powerfull being, and I can do anything. And I'll never, ever lose my power." What makes you so certain of that? I'd submit that, if such knowledge were strictly on the human level, you might be right. After all, there are limits on what a finite, fallible human being can know. But that doesn't mean that an infinite God cannot know such things. Limits on human knowledge and human power do not necessitate limits on the Creator. Quote: And I don't really understand what all-loving is supposed to mean. Like, loves everything? Doesn't really look like it in the bible, tough. I'm not sure where the terminology "all-loving" comes from, and therefore cannot comment on its intended meaning in every context. I do not believe it is a biblical word. However, the concept of God's love, as we know it from Christ, is that "God so loved the world [i.e., his creation and every person in it] that he sacrificed his only begotten Son," and "God demonstrates his perfect love for us in this: that even while we were sinners, Christ died for us." Now, this love does not contradict his absolute justice, by which he punishes sin, or for that matter, destroys those who seek to destroy his people. It only means that, in his love for all creation, he does not tolerate those who seek to cause harm to the order which he created. Just a bit of advice: it really helps when we step outside of the philosophical terminology and think of him as a Person. What Father in his right mind wouldn't fight, even kill, to protect his family? Quote: Besides, even if there is a god, and the bible is his word, we can't know if he's telling the truth. What if he lied, and spent the last 2000 years laughing at us? That's not terribly different from a question Rene Descartes asked in his own struggle with faith. In the end, however, he concluded that such a sadistic God cannot exist; it would be an affront to all existence, that is to say, it would make nothing in this life certain, even the empirical science that Descartes loved so much. Even science would be just a cruel joke on us. But in that regard, all I can say is, go back and observe Christ's life. Whether or not God might be a liar might be in question here, but I've already outlined reasons why I do not believe the apostles were. Does the kind of life Jesus lived strike you as one of a cruel jokester? (I could imagine Superman trying to make him say "Susej" to send him back to his home dimension). Quote: If I came face to face with a god, and it told me it was all-knowing and all-powerfull, I might ask it "How do you know you're all-knowing? Would you be able to tell if you were all-powerfull or not? How can you prove that there's definetly, absolutely, nothing at all, whatsoever, that is more powerfull than you and/or that you do not have any knowledge of?" Ah, but that's just it. I don't think God would submit himself to your questioning. If anything, he might just point out to you how infinitely little you do know in comparison to him, and say, "Considering your own human fallibility and limitation, who the heck do you think you are to question me? I'm the Creator, and your the creature. Do you honestly think you're smarter than me? Or that I really have to prove anything to you? I'm the divine judge here, not you." I am suddenly reminded of Jim Carey for some reason. But as YHWH says in Isaiah, "My thoughts are not as your thoughts, neither are my ways as your ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are above your thoughts." Anyway, Duke, these are all interesting questions. I just don't think they really touch the heart of the matter here. Even if there were some sort of "Overgod" (not that I'm even conceding there is), the fact is that we must still answer to the one who created us. But you see, Duke, I do see a tendency in what you're saying, which is essentially, "Even if God proved himself to me, I still wouldn't believe." That being the case, I cannot help but feel sorry for you. An entire world is closed off to you.

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:46 pm ]
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Didymus wrote: Quote: When someone say "You can't prove that god does not exist.", you can say that they can't prove their god is the only god. There could be an even greater god that the "lesser" god cannot detect. That is, unless we are looking at the God of the Cross. It would seem to me that, if there were another God more powerful than he, then wouldn't that God have prevented the resurrection to keep the false one from taking credit? Only if your own assumptions of the motives of such a diety are indeed correct.

Author:	bwave [ Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:53 pm ]
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DukeNuke wrote: Besides, even if there is a god, and the bible is his word, we can't know if he's telling the truth. What if he lied, and spent the last 2000 years laughing at us? Remember the Joe Shmoe Show? Did we lie once, then laugh for 2000 years? No. It is highly unlikely that God would have done the same thing. If you were stuck in the woods, and needed a way out, and some guy gave you directions, would you believe him, or sit there wondering if he was lying?

Author:	Didymus [ Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:57 pm ]
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You have a point there. Since we have no knowledge whatsoever of such an "Overgod," not even regarding his existence, we can't really say much about such a hypothetical Overgod's supposed motives. It might just be that we'd have to set aside the whole notion of this Overgod's existence and deal only with the revealed God. In short, this theory of an Overgod really doesn't factor in to the equation.

Author:	ramrod [ Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:08 am ]
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PianoManGidley wrote: Didymus wrote: Quote: When someone say "You can't prove that god does not exist.", you can say that they can't prove their god is the only god. There could be an even greater god that the "lesser" god cannot detect. That is, unless we are looking at the God of the Cross. It would seem to me that, if there were another God more powerful than he, then wouldn't that God have prevented the resurrection to keep the false one from taking credit? Only if your own assumptions of the motives of such a diety are indeed correct. Exactly, What if the Gods were co-existing with each other? Couldn't it be a possible? Is there more than one? I don't know. If there only one? That again I don't know.

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What do I believe in? http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8872	Page 5 of 5

Author:	PieMax [ Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:19 am ]
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It was much simpler back when Apollo rode across this sky with the sun behind him and Zeus threw giant yellow sticks at people.

Author:	Teh Cheatsauraus [ Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:26 am ]
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What do you believe? Eh...I'm Christian, but it's not like I really go to church or anything much anymore. I don't really plan on doing so once I become an adult either. Why do you believe it? My mom has made my sister and me go to church ever since we were really little. I'm pretty sure she goes for the event to be social and talk more than focusing on God though. The religion was somewhat forced upon me, but nonetheless I believe that God's there. Although my sister still is adamant about going to church every week, I stopped caring so much about going around last year. It's not like you become a better or worse Christian by going to church or not. If you go and you don't pay attention or anything it's not like you're growing spiritually. Do you believe it is true? Yes, I believe it's true. What if you found out you were wrong? Umm, that sucks for me and a huge majority of the world then? I don't know...

Author:	DukeNuke [ Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:41 am ]
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Didymus wrote: Since we have no knowledge whatsoever of such an "Overgod," not even regarding his existence, we can't really say much about such a hypothetical Overgod's supposed motives. It might just be that we'd have to set aside the whole notion of this Overgod's existence and deal only with the revealed God. In short, this theory of an Overgod really doesn't factor in to the equation. Now, if you replace "god" with "universe" and "overgod" with "god", that's basicly how an atheist or agnostic thinks: Quote: Since we have no knowledge whatsoever of such an "God," not even regarding his existence, we can't really say much about such a hypothetical God's supposed motives. It might just be that we'd have to set aside the whole notion of this God's existence and deal only with the revealed universe. In short, this theory of an God really doesn't factor in to the equation. And saying the bible indicates a god doesn't really matter much. There are hundreds or mabye even thousands of religions in the world, many with religious texts.

Author:	Didymus [ Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:15 pm ]
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Quote: Now, if you replace "god" with "universe" and "overgod" with "god", that's basicly how an atheist or agnostic thinks: Except for one thing: apart from your recently proposed theory, we've never had any reason to postulate such an "overgod." Whereas we believe we have sound reason for trusting the revelation of God that we do have. So really, the parallels aren't the same. Quote: And saying the bible indicates a god doesn't really matter much. There are hundreds or mabye even thousands of religions in the world, many with religious texts. Yes, there are lots and lots of religious texts out there. However, do those other texts have nearly the same amount of historical data and archaeological support as the Bible does? Or for that matter, how many of those that claim to be historical religions (i.e., religions based on known factual historical persons) have made the same sort of claims that Christianity has about its founder? Does Islam claim Mohammed to be God Incarnate? Has Buddhism declared Gautama risen from the dead, and offered witness accounts to support it? If anything, I feel that Tolkien's theory pretty much demonstrates your premise (that the existence of multiple religions proves all of them to be false) to be incorrect. According to his theory of "Splintered Light," the fact that there are multiple religions, far from being evidence against God, is actually evidence FOR God, in pretty much the same way that counterfeit money, rather than disproving the existence of real money, actually proves that real money must exist. Now, if you wanted to do a bit-by-bit comparison between the Christian faith and another religion, then we might have something to talk about. But the existence of multiple religions cannot by itself be understood as proof against God. And what would Tolkien say we are to make of this? In his own explanation, there is myth and there is history. But, according to him, in the Christian faith, the myth becomes reality. In other words, the legendary gods of all the other religions takes upon himself material form and walks in real places. It is for this reason that I've never been terribly impressed with the comparative religion argument against God: all it does is try to wad all religions up into a single ball and toss them all out at once, rather than taking the time to examine them to see if there's any truth to be found in any of them. Teh Cheatsauraus wrote: It's not like you become a better or worse Christian by going to church or not. If you go and you don't pay attention or anything it's not like you're growing spiritually. Do you mind if I ask what you dislike about church? I know, there are times when all of us get tired of the same old thing. Back before I became a Lutheran, I had despaired of going to the Baptist church I belonged to at the time, and mostly because I wasn't getting anything out of it anymore. But maybe this might help: if you like, I can share an online resource or two that might be encouraging. For one thing, you can click one of my banner pics; one of them will take you to where you can read my own writings (the other is my Acid Planet music page - but feel free to listen to my jams, too). The other is [quote=http://www.cph.org/forms/Portals.asp]Portals of Prayer[/quote], which can give you a short passage of Scripture and something to think about every day. Also, if you'd prefer to talk about it in private, you can always PM me. I know I can be pretty ferocious here on the R&P, but in private, I'm typically very understanding. Ramrod wrote: Exactly, What if the Gods were co-existing with each other? Couldn't it be a possible? Is there more than one? I don't know. If there only one? That again I don't know. I think the answer to your question there can be found in the Nicene Creed. Not that the Creed itself proves it, but remember, as a Christian, this is what we confess about our God. But if another argument is necessary, then I'd ask you this: do you believe God to be a liar? If God reveals himself to be creator of heaven and earth and all things within (incidentally, the phrase "heaven and earth" is used in many Eastern languages to signify what we call "universe" today), then either he is correct in doing so, or he is a liar, and we're right back with Rene Descartes, doubting all of existence, including scientific observation. Of course, he could be crazy, in which case he'd be in Africa dropping Coke bottles from airplanes to screw with the Aborigines' heads.

Author:	Wesstarrunner [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:42 pm ]
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1. What do you believe in? Christianity, Missionary Baptist Christianity. 2. Why do you believe it? Because I know it's true and it provides me the knowledge that I will have an afterlife. 3. Do you believe it's true? Yes I do, I know it's true. 4. And if, what you believe in, might happen to not be true. How would you respond? This could never happen, but if it did I would go crazy.

Author:	MikeMcG [ Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:49 pm ]
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1. What do you believe in? I consider myself an atheist(read: pastafarian). I don't believe there are any gods or goddesses, but I do believe that it is possible for such an organism to exist. If there are planets, universes, people, carbon, then there can easily be a divine being. 2. Why do you believe it? I have no need for a god/dess and I think it's unlikely. Personal preference. =P 3. Do you believe it's true? Usually someone believes in something because they believe it's true. It's kind of hard to go "Yeah, I believe Vishnu is real," and not think it's true. That doesn't mean that I know I'm right, I can easily be wrong with something like this. 4. And if, what you believe in, might happen to not be true. How would you respond? It would be a pleasant surprise. =P I'm always up for being surprised... as long as it's a good one. None of this dieing and waking up in a lemon party for all eternity.

Author:	Sbemailman [ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:50 pm ]
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1. What do you believe in? JESUS CHRIST 2. Why do you believe it? BECAUSE IT'S TRUE 3. Do you believe it's true? THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID 4. And if, what you believe in, might happen to not be true. How would you respond? Sbemailman from 5 seconds ago wrote: IT'S TRUE

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:52 pm ]
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Nice to see that you can prove it's true, Sbemailman. Shouting proves everything.

Author:	Sbemailman [ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:52 pm ]
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Thank you

Author:	Didymus [ Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:12 am ]
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Oh, just knock it off. You're so busted!

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Author:	Didymus [ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:53 pm ]
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Thank you, Sbemailman. Of course, I hope you realize that people are going to find it very difficult to take your post seriously now.

Author:	Sbemailman [ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:58 pm ]
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I just don't feel like talking, plus I'm going for supper in a few seconds, so... BYE! P.S. get me on a more specific topic and I can argue like there's no tomorrow, or even next week.

Author:	Didymus [ Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:04 am ]
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And since your IP matches that of another user, I'm going to call it: you're a fake account.

Author:	Sbemailman [ Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:08 am ]
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NO seriously

Author:	Sbemailman [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:59 am ]
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Sbemailman, in a message to Didymus wrote: I am very sorry about the incident with the religion forum the other day. I was it a hurry (I was going out to dinner) and wrote down the answers quickly while my caps lock was on. The thank yous were from my computer, it kept putting them out on it's own. And it wouldn't let me post anything else. The following are thought out answers to the forums questions: 1. What do you believe in? Jesus Christ my savior and lord. 2. Why do you believe it? Because I have had a strong religious upbringing and I see things in my everyday life that prove it. There are miracles all around us if you just open your eyes. The bible shows God's love and power and everyday life shows us of his commitment to it. "Life is like a dark tunnel, let God be your flashlight." -A. R. Milne 3. Do you believe it's true? Yes, very deeply, God works in events and people around you. Open your eyes and see all that God does, and be saved like countless others. 4. And if, what you believe in, might happen to not be true. How would you respond? I wouldn't believe it. I know there is a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and I will defend that continually. Also, as for the accusation of a false account, you are partially right, I did make that second account, but, It was just for fun, to let out my gratitude to Homestar Runner. This is my real account, the other was for fun, please don't get to mad. I hope this will patch things up, please don't get to angry about the fake account. I will be posting some of this on the forum, just to patch things up with others. Very sorrily, Sbemailman

Author:	sci-fi greg [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:01 am ]
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1. What do you believe in? I'm Agnostic 2. Why do you believe it? I definitely think there is a god, but none of the modern religions make sense to me. 3. Do you believe it's true? Really no way to tell. 4. And if, what you believe in, might happen to not be true. How would you respond? Oh well, I had a nice life.

Author:	speeddeamon [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:24 pm ]
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1. I am a Christian. I attend a Baptist church. I believe that god created everything and everyone. I believe that sin is what separated man from god. I believe that God sent his son to die on the cross for everyones sins so whoever chooses to believe in him will go to heaven. 2. Partially because I was raised in a Christian home and went to church and partially because God has shown himself to me when he helped change my life around for the better. 3. Yupsters. (Yes) 4. If it all was somehow proven false(which I think is impossible) I would still live my life how a Christian should by not killing, committing adultery, stealing etc, because it would still feel like the right thing to do.