Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Oh yes, because we all know that giving workers freedom is such a horrible thing. It's not the dictatorships, the killings, and the scandals that are the truely horrible things, it's that workers now have some freedom.

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I find Israel's appropriate actually. You forget, that if you kill 8 people in Israel, its the equivalent to killing 500 people in the US. If someone killed 500 people here, I am sure we would react the same way.
Also, you may forget that service in the Israeli military is mandatory, not voluntary, like most other countries. So, the reason why Israel is so angry about losing 2 soldiers is that it could literally be anyone taken. If you lived in Israel, it could be your brother, sister, mother or father.

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GENGHIS KHAN!!!!!

That equation of "8 Israeli lives = 500 American lives" makes no sense to me, RL. If you're hinting at the population difference, then I can't see that that makes a difference - any act of aggression is a danger to the stability to any country, even if that acts takes no victims.

But look, I'm not saying that Israel is not entitled to react. I just can't see the sense in using air strikes - there's no more indiscriminate way of killing, and Israel is (supposedly) going after a small and scattered group of terrorists. Even helicopter strikes would be a more responsible choice.

It would appear the Arab nations are seeking a diplomatic solution to this latest Lebanese crisis. This isn't too surprising; after all, Israel's various neighbors aren't much of a match for it militarily. With luck the situation will be defused, but hopefully not before Hezebollah gets taken down a few notches.

I'm resistant to the notion that this is the first stirrings of the apocalypse. The Arab nations do not want all-out war with Israel (not to mention its ally the U.S., and mostly likely a broad international coalition of other U.N. members). The full military might of the West is more than sufficient to steamroll and bury the entire region if need be, and despite their occasional saber rattling the leaders there know that.

Of course, strife in the Middle East should never be taken lightly. There will certainly be far-reaching consequences to this trouble. I don't think World War III will be one of them, though.

Mike

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Logical fallacies ahoy! I'd also like to say: graaaaagh!

Heh, sorry, I should have explained. Due to the population difference (Israel:6 Million (incredibly ironic....) America:300 MIllion), 8 Israeli deaths means about 500 American deaths, in population differences.

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GENGHIS KHAN!!!!!

Yeah, I thought that's what you meant, Rogue Leader.



No doubt that they would, but it looks like that's not going to happen just yet. Yitzhak Rabin was on the Beeb last night, and by his account it seems that Israel isn't interested in diplomacy at this stage.

Then I finally figured out exactly why Israel over-reacted like they did..... I think it's now pretty certain that this conflict is a "don't mess with me or u dead" exercise. Could there be any other explanation?

Again, did Israel overreact? At what point do you just say "Enough is enough!" ?

Need I remind you that the people Israel are fighting will accept nothing less than the extermination of every Jew on the planet, but especially those in the Middle East? How do you negotiate with that? At least Israel has tried for the past few years.

Israel withdraws from Southern Lebanon... Hezbollah moves in and starts lobbing missiles. Israel withdraws from Gaza. Hamas moves in and starts firing rockets.

The Israeli public demsontrates it's ready to make remarkable compromises to accomodate the establishment of a Palestinian state at Camp David in 2000. Arafat spits on the deal because co-existence is not the goal and not in his playbook. The eradication of the Israeli state is.

It's a bit of a simplification, but only a bit. Broadly speaking it's an accurate statement.

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I don't know if they can be blamed for having this attitude. They've pretty much been rocketed, blasted, and suicide bombed since they came into existence in the 40's. Everyone around them hates them simply because of their religion. The argument often used against them of "they took land from the Palestinians" doesn't hold water. The UN created the state of Israel. If the Palestinians have a problem with that, they need to take it up with Kofi Annan, not schoolchildren in Haifa.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

No, not religion. Only a very small segment of Israeli population actually practices Judaism.


I'm not sure that's right. I mean, what if the UN took your home and gave it to, say, some Canadians? Wouldn't you want to defend your home, even if it meant fighting those who benefited from the UN's decisions? Not that I approve of the tactics of the Hezballah and other terrorists groups, but you've got to realize, in their minds, they're not doing anything different than the colonists did the American Revolution.

I think the Israelis are overreacting. They are no longer targeting just the Hezballah, but the peoples around them as well, and in my mind, there is no justification for that. By definition, a just war must be limited to only the force necessary to accomplish the goal of peace. Israel's neighbors want resolution; Israel wants to keep fighting. This makes their fighting unjust.

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Israel wants to guarantee its own survival as much as possible. You really think Israel's neighbors want resolution? Maybe right now they're willing to say that, but once Israel stands down, you think they'll be left alone? No way.

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Doesn't matter. By definition, a just war includes only the force necessary to accomplish the goal of peace. So what if it's an uneasy peace? Essentially, lahi, you're attempting to justify the widescale murder of innocent people because of the actions of a small handful of terrorists, and in my mind, there is no justification for that. It essentially makes the Israelis no better than the Hezballah, and in fact, worse, because they're doing more killing.

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First off, Wikipedia disagrees with you.






A small handful of terrorists who run the country of Lebanon. And don't act like Israel is intentionally killing innocent civilians. The terrorists are hiding out in civilian homes and using them to create and store weapons. If there was a "terrorist" country populated entirely of Hezbollah or Hamas terrorists, I'm sure Israel would attack them and leave innocents out of it.

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I won't disagree with you there. Part of this is because Hezballah hides in and among the people around them. This is an incredibly cowardly act on their part. I really wish the Israelis would do a better job of only attacking the guilty, though.
I'm on their side on this, but they're making it increasingly hard for me to stay there.*


Everyone, please see above post for correct usage of their, they're, there.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Actually, Lahi, perhaps you should do a little more reading before quoting Wikipedia out of context. HERE's a better article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Just_War_tradition

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I didn't quote anything out of context.

And even if one accepts these rules of Just War, I don't know that they apply in the case of battling terrorists. As I said before, there is no Country of Terrorists. The people fighting Israel are hiding among civilians. You cannot just defeat them militarily and have them surrender and be subject to UN sanctions or whatever.

Terrorists do not fight by the rules. If we try to apply the standard "rules" of warfare, they'll never be defeated.

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You're right. Terrorists don't fight by the rules. So if you abandon the rules in order to engage them, then what does that make you?

Like I said earlier, the tactics the Israelis are using make them no better than the terrorists they are fighting.

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1. I am not advocating that people abandon all rules of civility when fighting terrorists. I'm only saying that you can't treat them like a sovereign nation.

2. You're being vague about these horrific tactics Israel is using. Care to elaborate? Suicide bombings at weddings? Capture, torture, and beheadings of civilians?

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The Israelis aren't using suicide bombs to accomplish their terrorism, but rather planes and missiles. They are still targeting civilians, and that makes them no better than terrorists. They're still using excessive force to accomplish their goals, and that makes them no better than terrorists.

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You sound like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

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You know, Lahi, I'm not sure that Godwin's Law applies precisely to the argument you've just made, but it's awfully close. You still haven't offered any sound reason to accept what you say, so essentially you're trying to relate me to the terrorists themselves. That's very poor form on your part. Don't do it again.

The last time I checked, the death toll of the Lebanese people in this conflict far outweighs the death toll of the Israelis. This is a strong indicator that the Israelis are using excessive force.

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I'm serious. Your post is very much like something like Ahmadinejad would say if he were here.

And thank you for chastising me. I appreciate being treated like an adult.

For the record, you failed to explain exactly how Israel is "targeting civilians". I'm still waiting on that one.


EDIT: This whole thing is admirably summed up in this political cartoon:



Just replace Israel with the US and Al-Qaeda with Hezbollah.

EDIT 2: And just because I have more to say:

A few years ago there was an explosion in a Palestinian town and the Israelis either detained or prohibited (I can't remember which) some emergency services from getting to the scene.

They took a lot of flak for it until they revealed some instances where terrorists and explosives were smuggled into sensitive areas in ambulances.

This is why terrorists don't get Geneva protections.

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Sure, I get that, and I get lahimatoa's point about Israel's need to maintain their position. But here's the thing - Hezbollah has not been touched, and civilian casulties are only mounting. Just look at the disproportionality between Lebanese civilian deaths, militant deaths, and Israeli civilian deaths. Come on - there is no way that Israel will look back on this as a defining moment for achieving peace in the future. If anything, it'll just encourage more Lebanese to join the militants.

And the argument that Hezbollah is hiding behind civilians just doesn't cut it - Israel is shelling highly populated towns like Beirut and Tripoli pretty much indiscriminately. (Well, I call land-to-air shelling indiscriminate, until someone convinces me otherwise).

As for lahimatoa's argument that Israel isn't trying to target civilians - well, yes, you've got a point. But there's the thing - what is Israel trying to do to minimise civilian deaths? Very little, from what I see.

Are you saying not a single Hezbollah terrorist has been killed? That statement seems a little extreme. Sure, Hezbollah says they haven't lost any leadership, but they wouldn't admit to something like that unless there was video proof.

And this article (from the Irish Examiner, btw) says that Israel destroyed a bunker built for Hezbollah leadership. Built under a mosque.

Short of sending ground troops in there to individually shoot everyone who identifies themselves as Hezbollah, Israel's job of destroying this threat to their country without incurring any civilian casualties is incredibly hard.

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Sure it would be incredibly hard, and as hard as it is to even think about, civilian deaths would always be unavoidable when Israel goes after Hezbollah or Hamas or whatever.

But I can't accept that it was unavoidable that that amount of civilians had to die, let alone the hundreds of people now displaced because of the conflict. It's the sheer scale of the deaths for which I can't morally find any justification. And again, I'm blaming Israel's methods for it.

As for the comment that Hezbollah hasn't been touched, I don't think it was extreme. Only around thirty miliants have been killed - out of the thousands of shells that the Israelis have rained down on Tripoli and Beirut. I don't call that a great result.

I agree that Israel could be using methods that don't incur so many civilian casualties.

Regarding the number of militants killed, who says 30 is an accurate number?

Also, Hezbollah has seats on the parliment in Lebanon. That means they are supported by thousands of people. I say voting for Hezbollah makes you part of the organization.

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Sort of like how there have been Klansmen sitting in key US government positions, and so that makes the entire US guilty of supporting the Klan.

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Ah yes, the KKK, who go out and routinely kill people in another country using suicide bombs. The KKK that kidnaps members of another nation's military. The KKK that is an active terrorist organization.

Bad comparison.

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The KKK was, and in some places, still is. They, just like terrorist, spread words of hate and prejudice. I think Dids comparison is valid.

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In case you haven't paid attention in history, Lahi, the KKK IS a terrorist organization that routinely kidnaps and kills citizens of THIS country. Good Comparison'd!!

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When was the last time that happened? And check out this article on how the political influence of the KKK is nothing today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KKK#Decline

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