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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:31 pm 
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You missed the point. The Klan has done this kind of stuff in the past. Stuff like:

* The assassination of NAACP organizer Medgar Evers in Mississippi. In 1994, former Ku Klux Klansman Byron De La Beckwith was convicted of Evers' murder.
* The 1966 firebombing death of NAACP leader Vernon Dahmer Sr., 58, also in Mississippi. In 1998 former Ku Klux Klan wizard Sam Bowers was convicted of Dahmer's murder. Two other Klan members were indicted with Bowers, but one died before trial, and the other's indictment was dismissed.
* The 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Alabama, which killed four children. Four Klansmen were named as suspects in they were not prosecuted until years later. The Klan members were Robert Chambliss, convicted in 1977, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Frank Cherry, convicted of murder in 2001 and 2002. The fourth suspect, Herman Cash, died before he was indicted.
* The murder of Willie Edwards, Jr., in 1957. Edwards was forced by Klansmen to jump to his death from a bridge into the Alabama River.
* The 1964 murders of civil rights workers Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Mississippi. In June 2005, Klan member Edgar Ray Killen was convicted of manslaughter in the murders.
* The 1965 murder of Viola Liuzzo, a Southern-raised white mother of five who was visiting the South from her home in Detroit to attend a civil rights march. At the time of her murder Liuzzo was transporting Civil Rights Marchers.

See Lahi, they are terrorist organization that has had considerable power and influence in this country on more than one occasion, just like Hezbollah.


Um, notice how they've done nothing since the 1960's. That is my point. You're trying to say that the KKK is directly equal to Hezbollah... but the problem is that the KKK is irrelevant TODAY and has been for decades while Hezbollah is still an active terrorist organization.

My point is that America did in fact destroy the KKK as a terrorist organization and have relegated them to a group covered by free speech for the most part.

Lebanon has done nothing to slow down Hezbollah.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:06 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Lebanon has done nothing to slow down Hezbollah.
It's kind of hard for the Lebanese Government ot do anything when the are controlled by Hezbollah. It's even harder when Hezbollah's military is stronger than Lebanon. When we put down the KKK we were in control. Lebanon wants to put Hezbollah down, but they do not have the power to do so.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:15 pm 
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Mr. Sparkle wrote:
Let them fight, they just need to let it out, it's better than letting them have constant tension.


I'm sure some people said the same thing back in the 60's and 70's when Israel did some military campaigns similar to this, and look where we are again today.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:22 pm 
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And I am pretty sure the people also said that about England and Germany in the 1930's, also.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:34 pm 
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England and Germany hadn't been going at it anywhere near as long as the whole "Israel v. Entire Middle East" situation. Sure, those two nations had been foes a couple of decades earlier, in the first World War, but prior to that initial major conflict, things had been relatively quiet between the two.

The Muslim/Jewish conflict has been going on for hundreds of years, and this current squabble is just one of many that the world has seen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:08 pm 
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potthole wrote:
England and Germany hadn't been going at it anywhere near as long as the whole "Israel v. Entire Middle East" situation. Sure, those two nations had been foes a couple of decades earlier, in the first World War, but prior to that initial major conflict, things had been relatively quiet between the two.


This is an interesting comparison. You would think that the allies "finished off" Germany in World War I, so it shouldn't have happened again, right? Well, it did. And the reason it did was BECAUSE they were finished off in a pointlessly brutal way, making them pay reparations. After World War II, the threat was neutralized and then the US dumped billions of dollars in their lap for reconstruction (same with Japan). Now Germany and Japan are two of the most pacifist countries on earth.

Maybe there needs to be a better system of rewards for people who do the right thing in that area. Like giant rewards. (I don't really know if the comparison works tho)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:48 pm 
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Japan is building up it's miliary again, haven't you heard?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Dr. Lurve wrote:
Japan is building up it's miliary again, haven't you heard?
Source?

I don't think Japan is going to cause any trouble. They have no reason to. They have one of the best economies in the world. They are making more money than they know what to do with.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm 
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Japan don't want to cause trouble. They want to defend.

http://abcasiapacific.com/focus/20060721_3.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:20 pm 
Dr. Lurve wrote:
Japan don't want to cause trouble. They want to defend.

http://abcasiapacific.com/focus/20060721_3.htm


Well, that's alright.

Every nation needs a defence system, and that's what Japan is doing.

You can be a peaceful nation, but you need a defence system in case of an emergency.

You have an arny when you have more then a defence system, like America and China.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:12 pm 
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Dr. Lurve wrote:
Japan don't want to cause trouble. They want to defend.

http://abcasiapacific.com/focus/20060721_3.htm


With China so close, as well as North Korea, I don't blame them for wanting to build up their defenses.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:26 pm 
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potthole wrote:
With China so close, as well as North Korea, I don't blame them for wanting to build up their defenses.
China doesn't want to start anything with Japan. They just want them to take responisiblity for the Rape af Manchuria back in WW2.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:24 pm 
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Beyond the Grave wrote:
potthole wrote:
With China so close, as well as North Korea, I don't blame them for wanting to build up their defenses.
China doesn't want to start anything with Japan. They just want them to take responisiblity for the Rape af Manchuria back in WW2.
That, and China knows if they start anything with Japan, we'll cut all trades with them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:57 pm 
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I don't think China is dumb enough to start anything with anybody yet- they're too busy trying to make friends internationally right now, to help their image with the upcoming Olympics- but I say give it a few years, we might hear a different song from them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:32 am 
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potthole wrote:
Dr. Lurve wrote:
Japan don't want to cause trouble. They want to defend.

http://abcasiapacific.com/focus/20060721_3.htm


With China so close, as well as North Korea, I don't blame them for wanting to build up their defenses.


Ah yes, but when does it end? When does "building up defenses" become a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:33 am 
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Israel has announced that they're suspending airstrikes for 48 hours. They say they will suspend them indefinitely, provided the Lebanese military will help them root out Hezbollah. Personally, I think it'd be a good idea for Lebanon to comply. First off, they're helping remove terrorism from their country. Secondly, they will stop the deaths of innocent civillians caused when Israel bombs the houses and apartments where Hezbollah hide, using human shields.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:16 am 
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Secondly, they will stop the deaths of innocent civillians caused when Israel bombs the houses and apartments where Hezbollah hide, using human shields.


Though it's worth pointing out that the strike in Qana this weekend was on an apartment block where no Hezbollah where hiding. Israel was aiming at the house next to it. Israel have accepted that, and - well - that's why they're having the 48 hour ceasefire - to investigate.

(While we're talking - an Israeli military spokeswoman said on the Beeb that Qana was "a mistake". Yeah right. A mistake that cost over fifty lives. X.X )


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:32 pm 
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The problem is we're only getting Israel's propaganda on this. This war isn't going to stop terrorism. You can't, full stop. Wars just fuel more hatred, which causes more terrorism. You can't fight fire with fire.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:42 pm 
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It's also worth noting that Israel warned civilians the week before to evacuate Qana, and apparently (I might take this back later, I'm still looking into it) there is a 7 hour gap between when the missile hit the apartment building and the explosion which caused the building to collapse and kill the civilians. Israel also released some surveillance footage from shortly before that showed missles being launched from the houses just behind that apartment as well. The apartment was a mistake, they missed their target, though they did intend to strike right near there. They have footage of 150 missles being launched from Qana so far, and they were trying to deter them from launching anymore.

It sucks that this happened, but I still feel that Hezbollah's tactics deserve the brunt of the blame for most of these tragedies.

I hope that Lebanon takes this opportunity to exert some control and will over Hezbollah.

EDIT: http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm I'm holding off judgment until I see some of these points addressed in a more major news organization. But I like part of this article because it has more facts about who was in the apartment building and timing. There is a good deal of speculation towards the end of the article, though, so I'm not ready to believe any of that. But the earlier parts seem pretty grounded.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:56 pm 
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The problem is we're only getting Israel's propaganda on this.


What are you talking about? Where do you live, Israel?

In America I mainly see reporters in Lebanon constantly harping on how many civilians have died and how bad Israel is for what they're doing. This is on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, etc.


Oh, and what racerx said.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:04 am 
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This sums up my position on the Israeli-Arab conflict and its recent history:

Quote:


The U.S.-Israeli Suicide Pact
By Ayn Rand Institute: (07/20/2006)

The Iran-Hamas-Hezbollah axis is fully responsible for initiating the war on Israel, but the Islamists' aggression is the logical product of U.S.-Israeli policy. The longstanding commitment of Israel and America to "diplomatic engagement" with Palestinians and Islamists--a euphemism for appeasement--is suicidal.

For decades America has urged Israel to placate and surrender to our common enemy. The U.S.-endorsed "Road Map to Peace," like the "Peace Process" and sundry initiatives before it, rationalized Palestinian terrorism as the result of a legitimate grievance. If only the Palestinians' wish for a civilized, peaceful state were fulfilled--Washington deluded itself into believing--terrorism would end. And fulfilling this wish requires not smashing their terrorist infrastructure, but showering them with land and loot.

But the majority of Palestinians actually seek the destruction of Israel, and the slaughter of its people. Because they embrace this vicious goal, hordes of Palestinians idolized arch terrorist Yasser Arafat for waging a terrorist war to wipe out Israel and establish a nationalist dictatorship. They abetted Arafat's terrorism and celebrated his atrocities. They served as cheerleaders or recruits for terrorist groups--and when they had the chance, they embraced the even more militant religious zealots of Hamas. It is no surprise that, according to a recent poll, 77 percent of Palestinians support their government's kidnapping of an Israeli soldier and that 60 percent support the continued rocket fire from Gaza into Israel.

But even as Palestinians mounted more attacks, Washington pressed Israel for more concessions--and bolstered the terrorist-sponsoring Palestinian Authority with millions of dollars in aid. The U.S. forbade Israel from laying a finger on Arafat, and extended this tender solicitude to Hamas leaders. Washington actually whitewashed the blood-stained Arafat and his crony Abbas as peace-loving statesmen and invited them to the White House. And when Hezbollah now fires rockets at major cities in northern Israel, President Bush demands that Israel show "restraint."

Depressingly, Israel has continually relented to American pressure to appease our common enemy. It has prostrated itself before the Palestinians, with flamboyantly self-sacrificial offers of land-for-peace; it has withdrawn from southern Lebanon, ceding ground necessary to its self-defense; it has withdrawn from Gaza, leaving its southern cities at the mercy of rocket fire from the Hamas-run territory.

Such U.S.-endorsed appeasement by Israel, across decades, has enabled Hezbollah and Hamas to mount their current attacks. Yet America remains undeterred in its commitment to appeasement.

The U.S. is now trying to woo Iran with endless offers of economic "incentives," if only Iran promises to stop chasing nuclear weapons. Evading Iran's lust to "wipe Israel off the map," evading its funding of Hezbollah and Hamas, evading its avowed enmity to America, evading its decades of fomenting and orchestrating a proxy terror war against American civilians--evading all of this, Washington deludes itself into believing that paying Iran off will, somehow, wipe out its hostility.

Inevitably, this encourages Iran to continue its aggressive support for terrorists and its fervent quest for nuclear weapons. Merely by prolonging the negotiations endlessly, Iran gains time to acquire a weapon to wield against its neighbors, to provide to Hamas and Hezbollah or to other proxies to use against the United States. And were Iran eventually to accept some deal, American aid would merely be sustaining Iran's regime--and, inexorably, a covert nuclear program.

We are teaching the Islamic totalitarians in Gaza, Lebanon and Iran that their goal of destroying us is legitimate; that aggression is practical; that the more aggressive they are, the more we will surrender. U.S.-Israeli policy has demonstrated that we lack the intellectual self-confidence to name, let alone condemn, our enemies--and that we lack the will to deal with threats mercilessly. It vindicates the Islamists' premise that their religious worldview can bring a scientific, technologically advanced West to its knees.

To protect the lives of our citizens, America and Israel must stop evading the nature of the enemy's cause: our complete destruction. We must stop appeasing our common enemy--and embrace self-defense as a matter of intransigent principle. To put an end to the current rocket attacks from Lebanon and Gaza, America should urge Israel to annihilate the annihilators: Hamas and Hezbollah. And to thwart Iran's nuclear ambition, America must use as much military force as is necessary to dispose of that catastrophic threat and the regime responsible for it.

Elan Journo is a junior fellow at the Ayn Rand Institute.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:57 pm 
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That 7 hour thing and the article above? I take them back. Pure speculation, and I haven't seen anything confirming that that's even partially unbiased.

So stuff that's true (as far as I can tell): They gave them about a week of warning, but some still didn't leave. A bunch of the people who were in the apartment did leave, and some poor people seeking shelter moved in after those people left (though some people were still there from earlier). Hezbollah launched rockets from right near the apartment building.

Moving on.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
Here's some photos smuggled out of Lebanon of how Hezbollah is dressed.

from the article wrote:
The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

...

The images include one of a group of men and youths preparing to fire an anti-aircraft gun metres from an apartment block with sheets hanging out on a balcony to dry.

...

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

"Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis. Then it was totally devastated.

"It was carnage. Two innocent people died in that incident, but it was so lucky it was not more."

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 Post subject: A Total Accident
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:41 pm 
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Okay, this happened quite some time ago, but, there was a bombing on Lebanon's UN thereby destroying their words. Isreal of course had to say it was an accident otherwise, they would be even more hated.
What baffles me about that is... the bombings lasted atleast 12 hours.
I think Isreal will soon be bombing News and Radio stations in Lebanon on "Accident". So, what are you opinions.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:18 am 
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there are lots of "accidents" in war.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:27 am 
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Shouldn't this be in the World War 3 thread?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:19 am 
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Israel was targeting a missile launcher that was set up behind the UN base. the UN personnel knew that their base was being used as a shield against attacks (and there are emails from them detailing their knowledge of this from days before the base was hit) and did nothing -- they didn't even leave the damn compound! it's a war zone, they had no place even being there.

i'm not saying that makes it ok that the UN personnel were killed. of course not, that sucks. but it's just just a case of "Israel blew up some UN people for no reason."


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:21 pm 
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The UN has no place to be in a war zone? I thought that that's exactly where they should be.

But yeah, you're probably right that this isn't a case of Israel blowing up the UN for no reason. The fact remains, though, that they should be culpable for their actions, accidental or not.*

And they've admitted that they did wrong there, and in Qana.





*As should Hezbollah, might I add.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:16 am 
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Israel didn't destroy Lebanon's UN; four unarmed peacekeepers not from Lebanon were killed in an airstrike on a UN observation post in southern Lebanon. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Lebanon's UN is completely gone, Snailmail.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:41 pm 
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Not sure if this is the right thread to put comment in, but I figure this incident is connected to the whole Iran\Iraq\Lebanon thing.

Police arrest two men during a routine traffic stop in Ohio last week after discovering

1. 150 prepaid cell phones

2. $11,000 in cash

3. Instructions on how to obtain private flights and airplane passenger information and

4. Information concerning airport security and check points


Yikes. Who doesn't believe there are more people in the US like this?


link

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:07 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Not sure if this is the right thread to put comment in, but I figure this incident is connected to the whole Iran\Iraq\Lebanon thing.

Police arrest two men during a routine traffic stop in Ohio last week after discovering

1. 150 prepaid cell phones

2. $11,000 in cash

3. Instructions on how to obtain private flights and airplane passenger information and

4. Information concerning airport security and check points


Yikes. Who doesn't believe there are more people in the US like this?


link

Thank god for Ohio Cops being so strict or we might not have caught them.

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