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The Debates
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=975		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
This could just as well go in a "Kerry's trump card" thread, but I'm lazy and biased. Anyway, the LA Times is running an interesting article (BugMeNot to skip the registration) on the agreement that the two compaigns have put together for the conditions of their upcoming debates.

Apparently Bush wanted the temperature in the auditorium set at 70 degrees so that Kerry would sweat. Glad to see the Bushies want the debate to be about the real issues. :rolleyes:

Quote:
According to a 32-page memorandum of understanding signed by the campaigns of Sen. John F. Kerry and President Bush, neither candidate may:
  • Use charts, diagrams or "other tangible things."
  • Make references to members of the audience.
  • Ask each other direct questions (although rhetorical questions are permitted).
  • Leave their "predesignated" area onstage.
  • Address each other with proposed pledges on policy or campaign tactics.


All in all, it looks like it's going to be pretty lame and spin-friggin-tastic. But it's going to decide a lot of votes, so I'm forcing myself to take notice.
Author:  Prof. Tor Coolguy [ Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:23 pm ]
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I'm really looking foward to the debate tommorow, I want to see if Kerry can finally put Bush in his place after a summer a mud slinging on Bush's part.
Author:  TheNintenGenius [ Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:37 pm ]
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If there's one thing you've got to love, it's debates that aren't really debates.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:58 pm ]
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TheNintenGenius wrote:
If there's one thing you've got to love, it's debates that aren't really debates.


NPR is running a great article, Top 10 Secrets They Don't Want You to Know About the Debates.

The debates are a farce. I'm going to force myself to pay attention to them anyway because they're so important to this election, but it makes me kind of sick.
Author:  lumberpeg vegeplank [ Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:43 pm ]
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InterruptorJones wrote:
NPR is running a great article, Top 10 Secrets They Don't Want You to Know About the Debates.

Wow, great article. Most of that stuff was news to me. The system perpetuates itself yet again to keep those with power already to stay in power.

Man, I'm depressed.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:23 am ]
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I still haven't been able to force myself over in front of the TV yet, but for those of you who are watching the debate, you might enjoy a little game of Presidential Debate Bingo. Fun for the whole family!
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:40 am ]
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Here's my assessment of the debate so far:

(1) Bush still comes across like an idiot, claiming that the invasion was no mistake. His defense against that charge is essentially, "If I admit I was an idiot, it might hurt the troops' feelings."

(2) Kerry still holds a very unrealistic assessment of the Iraq situation. And he can't seem to remember the fact that he supported the war from the beginning. He does flip-flop a lot in his responses. At one point, I could have sworn I saw the part in his hair change sides.

God save us from idiot presidents. Our only hope is that The Popular Search Engine Google might pull an upset victory.

Vote:
The Popular Search Engine
Google
for President!
Author:  fahooglewitz1077 [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:56 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
Here's my assessment of the debate so far:

(1) Bush still comes across like an idiot, claiming that the invasion was no mistake. His defense against that charge is essentially, "If I admit I was an idiot, it might hurt the troops' feelings."

(2) Kerry still holds a very unrealistic assessment of the Iraq situation. And he can't seem to remember the fact that he supported the war from the beginning. He does flip-flop a lot in his responses. At one point, I could have sworn I saw the part in his hair change sides.

God save us from idiot presidents. Our only hope is that The Popular Search Engine Google might pull an upset victory.


This is pretty much what I deduce.
I hear Kerry saying "Afghan Warlords" a lot.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:40 am ]
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Bush actually didn't do as well as I expected. Maybe I have too much faith in the American people, but I think he hammered on his talking points (of which there were only two -- "changing your mind is really bad" and "recognizing that Iraq isn't okay is really bad") too much, and I think people will see that. Maybe. Hopefully.

One thing that has always driven me nuts about Bush is that when he's on the stump, he almost exclusively refers to Kerry as "my opponent". It's a sly way of dissing him. Kerry, on the other hand, has the dignity to refer to Bush as The President.

Kerry did okay. He wasn't fantastic, but he didn't blow it like I secretly feared. There are a lot of moments when I wished I could put words in his mouth -- he would almost make a great point and then kind of muddle it in the execution. I knew what he wanted to say, and the way he ought to phrase it for maximum effect, but he didn't quite follow through.

That said, they're both very master debaters (haw) and I'm awed by their speaking ability.

I have alot more I could say about this, but I think I'd ramble. Maybe tomorrow I'll put together something coherent.

P.S. Don't forget to watch The Daily Show's live post-debate analyis. It starts in about 15 minutes (11/10).

P.P.S. Did anybody else think that Bush looked kinda like a little Yoda behind that podium? Except, without the cool.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:56 pm ]
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Since we've got a few debates left and probably plenty of discussion, I decided to split the topic.

I've taken a few minutes to collect some of the "quick polls" from the news sites. The question was pretty uniformly "who won the debate?". I changed the order of the options to be uniform. Check the news sites to see their original presentation. It's safe to say that web polls are even more inherently flawed than phone polls, but even so it looks like Kerry stomped Bush verily. At the time of this posting, we have:

Code:
CNN.com
Bush    21 ###########
Kerry   72 ####################################
Tie      7 ####

CBSNews.com
Bush   9.6 #####
Kerry 89.2 #############################################
Tie    1.2 #

MSNBC.com
Bush    38 ###################
Kerry   62 ###############################

FoxNews.com
Bush    41 #####################
Kerry   38 ##################
Tie     15 ########
(Didn't watch: 5%; None of the above: 1%)


(Note: I rounded the CBSNews.com to the nearest tenth; the other polls were presented without decimals. Each # in the charts equals two percentage points, rounded to the nearest.)

Check out the Fox News numbers. Those guys crack me up. At least they provided a "Didn't watch" option (what's up with MSNBC not even providing a "Tie" option?), but seriously, who are the jokers voting "None of the above"?
Author:  TheNintenGenius [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:28 pm ]
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The thing I find interesting is, even though Bush won on the FoxNews poll (gee, what a surprise, eh?), the margin by which he won on the Fox poll is significantly smaller than the margin by which Kerry won on the other three polls.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:42 pm ]
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Oops! I just now noticed that my Fox News numbers were only adding up to 89%. Turns out I accidentally put 5% instead of 15% for the tie votes. Or something. Anyway, now I fixed it, and put in the new data for Bush and Kerry, so the Fox News one is actually now more current than the others by an hour or so (Bush lost a point or two and Kerry gained). Maybe this afternoon I'll revise them all again.

If anybody else spots any errors in my math, let me know.

The 15% tie vote for Fox News is interesting. My suspicion is that a lot of righty FNC viewers recognize that Bush was trounced but just don't want to admit it, so they picked Tie instead.
Author:  racerx_is_alive [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:10 pm ]
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I missed the debates, but I got to watch the Daily Show's post debate analysis. From what I have read so far this morning, and what I saw in clips on TV, Bush got beat pretty badly. Did anyone else see Jon Stewart interviewing Rudy Giuliani? Does anyone else here not understand Kerry's position on Iraq? Anyone? Giuliani reminded me of an ostrich with its head in the ground. "Kerry honestly confused me. I can't figure out what he's saying." Baloney.

However, considering that according to some standardized tests, Bush is legally retarted, the fact that he managed to almost have a debate with a man who was raised by a pack of homosexual billionaires in Paris is pretty impressive.

Man, I love the Daily Show.

I agree that Bush is in denial over Iraq. I agree that his plan isn't working to give the country stability and democracy, and it isn't going to get our soldiers out of there. However, I think Kerry is in the same FantasyLand that Bush is. Kerry's claim that he can get all the countries that are refusing to help us in Iraq to suddenly change their minds is absurd. And aside from that bogus claim of gathering multilateral support, his position in Iraq is remarkably similar to Bush's, with the exception that he'll remove the tax cuts to finance the war, rather than deficit spend.
Author:  InvaderTK [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:30 pm ]
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I made this on a picture I found on CNN. Help me with the fuzzyness problem.

Image
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
INVADERTK wrote:
I made this on a picture I found on CNN. Help me with the fuzzyness problem.


The fuzziness is because you're saving it as a JPEG with high compression/low quality, and your text is small (which is difficult for the JPEG algorithm).

I like how in the picture they're not even looking at eachother.
Author:  InvaderTK [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
I saved it under everything else, but nothing works. Could you edit it for me?
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
INVADERTK wrote:
I saved it under everything else, but nothing works. Could you edit it for me?


Once you've saved it as a highly-compressed JPEG, there's no way to "un-compress" it. If you don't have an uncompressed version, then you're going to have to start over.

Anyhow...

The DNC has a pretty funny video up of W's reactions to Kerry.

I got a kick out of watching Kerry while Bush was speaking. I wish I could see what his notes looked lik;, he looked to be writing so eagerly and he kept making sweeping horizontal marks. I didn't see any trepidation on his face, which was reassuring.
Author:  Brunswick Stu [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:35 pm ]
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I think a lot of Democrats have been pinning their hopes on the debates. judging by last night's performance, it looks like their hopes were justified. you'd have to be a heavily partisan Republican to claim that Bush won that debate.

don't forget Poland!
Author:  TheNintenGenius [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:38 pm ]
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I was wondering how Bush was going to answer the allies question. "Well, we have the UK! And... uh... Poland! And lots of other people! Seriously!"
Author:  InvaderTK [ Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Can anyone provide me with a transcript of the debates? Google didn't work.
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:23 am ]
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Wikipedia, my friend. Wikipedia: 2004 U.S. Presidential Debate - September 30.

Oh, and check this out: Bush is already chickening out of the second debate.
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:32 am ]
Post subject: 
That's supposed to be at Wash U, right here in town! It's just a few blocks from Concordia, where I'm at.

Incidentally, that's
Image

Not
Image
Author:  Brunswick Stu [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:37 am ]
Post subject: 
InterruptorJones wrote:
Oh, and check this out: Bush is already chickening out of the second debate.


note that that article is from three weeks ago. if Bush backs out now, he will look weak and, dare I say it, indecisive. it would be a big blow to his campaign.
Author:  Bucky Katt [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:40 am ]
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Yeah, I doubt that he would bow out of it at this point. Washington University... Don't one of you guys live around there? Heh, that was probably referenced in relation to this debate. I should really pay more attention... :copter:
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:23 am ]
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I live almost right next door to Wash U. (over on Concordia).
Author:  fahooglewitz1077 [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:51 am ]
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My aunt and uncle live in Washington.
Author:  lumberpeg vegeplank [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
The vegetable is very happy with how the debates turned out.

Bush had two cards that he played:

1. Kerry is a flip flopper, and

2. Kerry said some stuff that demoralized our troops, i.e. "wrong place, wrong war, wrong time."

In regards to number one, Kerry stated his position clearly (finally): "Saddam was a threat, Bush was a moron in how he executed the war, and because of that, American are dying."

Yes! Concise and blew that flip-flop crap out of the water. Not that it stopped GWB from mentioning it over and over for the next hour. It must have been the only thing he researched for the debates.

In regards to number two, Kerry apoplogized for saying a thoughtful (though true) comment one tiem in his life. Apologizing! Who knew the power of humility?

Oh, yeah, that guy who GWB brings up all the time who lived two-thousand years ago. Could somebody get our president a Bible, so as he could learn what Jesus was really like?

Did anyone else want to gag when GWB was talking about the mother who had lost her son in Iraq, and he touted his "crying and praying" actions with her? I could just see him there when it happened, crying forced tears and thinking, "Hey, this will play great in Ohio!"
Author:  TheNintenGenius [ Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:55 pm ]
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The thing I always find intresting about the "demoralizing troops" thing is that, you know, that was the EXACT same argument people for the Vietnam war used to attack those who weren't: How DARE you criticize our actions in Vietnam? Don't you know it'll demoralize the troops and turn them into quivering piles of jelly for Charlie to tear into? You scum!
Author:  InterruptorJones [ Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Brunswick Stu wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
Oh, and check this out: Bush is already chickening out of the second debate.


note that that article is from three weeks ago. if Bush backs out now, he will look weak and, dare I say it, indecisive. it would be a big blow to his campaign.


Whoops! Thanks for pointing that one out. :) Yeah, I rather doubt Bush is going to bow out now, since it'll really look like chickening out.

lumberjack vegetable wrote:
Did anyone else want to gag when GWB was talking about the mother who had lost her son in Iraq, and he touted his "crying and praying" actions with her? I could just see him there when it happened, crying forced tears and thinking, "Hey, this will play great in Ohio!"


Yeah, that also made me queasy. But I had a good laugh at his choice of words:

George W. Bush wrote:
You know, it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can, knowing full well that the decision I made caused her loved one to be in harm's way.


To quote Wonkette, "Yeah, he's picking up the slack for all of those OB-GYNs who are having a hard time practicing their love on the ladies."
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