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 Post subject: Ladies And Gentlemen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:53 am 
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All posters are equal.

But some posters are more Equal than others.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:56 am 
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This is your first post? I love you...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:59 am 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
This is your first post? I love you...
You won't once you find out who I am.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:00 am 
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Cola, we're discussing this in the mod area. Just remain calm and don't freak out.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:02 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
Cola, we're discussing this in the mod area. Just remain calm and don't freak out.
Sorry Ian. I told him to post this. This is something that needs to be discussed by all.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:02 am 
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Oh, crap. It's COLA.

Oh, well. You're alright, I guess.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:06 am 
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I agree with most of this stuff except I think that there really doesn't need to be a super-organized government structure. I go to this other forum that has about as many users as this one, and only has two or three moderators. If the community feels that any changes are necessary, they post it in a suggestions board, and, you know, vote on it. This place doesn't need to be a total democracy, but it should slide with what the majority of users think.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:07 am 
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Sorry, Ram.

We are discussing promoting Ace, Capt. Ido Nos, and Shwoo as the newest mods. Shwoo because she posts a lot in the top sections, Capt because he gets along with pretty much everyone, and Ace as an addition from Serious Inc. I'm happily willing to follow suggested mod rules, and I agree that Rule 1 needs to go. It'd be kinda funny:

-"Where's Rule 1?"
-"There is no Rule 1."
-"O...k....."

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 Post subject: Re: Ladies And Gentlemen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:09 am 
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COLA, look, we see what you're saying and to some extent we agree with you... but to some extent we disagree with you, too. But at the end of the day, as I've said before, "rules is rules". If you don't follow the rules, you get kicked out. No matter what tweaks we make to the system here, that's not going to change.

BTW, if you think we're harsh, you should see how they run GameFAQs.

The Calcutta wrote:
We can and will respect you, we will show you as much respect as we show any other member, because that is all you are: MEMBERS WITH MODERATE POWERS. (hence the term "Moderator").


"Moderator" means "one who enforces moderation", not "one with moderate powers". Indeed, a moderator could be very much not moderate. Anyway, I do agree that we shouldn't run about with reckless abandon, but I don't think that's what we've been doing. Can you give us any concrete examples of what you see as mod excess?

- Kef

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:11 am 
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From what I've heard, this place used to me WAY more strict, so…thats all I'll say about that.


And I feel that there can be a common ground somewhere that we can compromise on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:12 am 
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What you need is a three-strikes policy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:13 am 
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This came sooner and a lot more bluntly than I thought it would have. I'm kinda tired, so I'm just gonna re-post what I posted in the mod thread on a similar topic (though less broad). Keep in mind that it's written to modmins in the modmin board, so "you"s and "here"s are a little off.

Quote:
I'm a bit apprehensive about getting rid of rule 1. I think we should keep it, but we should make it clear that we a) will only use it as a last resort, and b) will do what we can to make it so that, after using rule 1, we won't have to use it again for the same reason (both of which we already do for the most part but aren't very well-known outside of this forum)

I'm also a bit unsure about making this more democratic. I do, however, agree that we should involve the non-mod users more. Here's what I propose: any time we plan to make a decision such as a rule-tweak, discuss it with everyone else first. Let them know why we're doing it and listen to any objections made and see if we can find a way to address them. Secondly, we should encourage suggestions. If people have a problem with our e\leadership, our decisions or the rules, we should encourage them to talk with us, either through pm or the suggestions board.

I'm all for mod guidelines. I know we set some for ourselves (I try to live by Inverse's policy myself) but if we make them more apparent to everyone and make some more that they'd like us to have, they'll know that we won't do anything that they might have a major problem with and will feel "safer", I guess the word would be.


So there's that. I'll read through this thing more thoroughly tomorrow and give a better stance.

One more thing, though: if you guys want change, you should try to do it in the most respectful way possible. For anything, not just forum stuff. Insulting people in any way is going to make them less happy to agree with you, even if the insult is warranted. It's just a good tip.

Oh, and you all should know that this isn't all COLA. Different parts of that were written by different people, if I'm not mistaken.


Last edited by Ju Ju Master on Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:14 am 
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I just sent a giant PM to Ramrod so I'm pretty burnt out, but here's what I said to him, in a nutshell.

1. RT&I needs to go. It was an ok thread for a while, but lately it's just been a breeding ground for bad blood and drama. It takes away from other threads, as well. People just decide to post there instead of in our many other threads.

2. [Quoting is easier]
Quote:
The moderators need to be more open about the stuff they're doing. Everyone in the Serious Inc community was grateful when [ramrod] came over there and posted. It means you're leveling with the normal users. It means you're respecting their desires. I'm sure if more of the mods were more open about the rules and discussed what people are doing, and discussed matters WITH them, then there would be less bad blood. I'm sure that there are some rules that people should not be going over. Blatant disregarding of the swearing filter should not really be tolerated. I can understand and respect that, and I'm sure if you talked to other people, they'd eventually relent (save for a couple extremists, but what are you going to do). But if it's one of this more ambiguous rules that seem to be causing this problem (ie, no one is really sure what Teff did at all), then we need to discuss it in an open environment. The reason so many Serious Inc users were happy [ramrod] came over to talk with us is because of just that: you leveled with us and talked to us in a free, open manner. You weren't just this guy enforcing rules. You were one of us, calmly explaining why we couldn't do these things, but asking us what we wanted and how we could make things better. We need more of this, from both sides. It will create a mutual respect. Moreover, it'll allow a format for both sides to work through their differences.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:16 am 
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Acekirby wrote:
1. RT&I needs to go. It was an ok thread for a while, but lately it's just been a breeding ground for bad blood and drama. It takes away from other threads, as well. People just decide to post there instead of in our many other threads.


THIS.

More than anything, that thread needs to go.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 am 
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[s]I counter with my trap card![/s] Speaking of that, might as well post another thing from the mod forum. Again, "you"s and "here"s are wrong, blah blah blah.

Me, also in the mod forum wrote:
(In response to RT being deleted) Drama's gonna go somewhere. if there's no RT, it'll just go somewhere else, like it does when RT gets locked.

I don't think drama would be so much of a problem for us if we dealt with it a different way. Drama stems from disagreements over bigger problems (In this case, these people shouldn't have been banned vs. they should have, and the mods and admins are doing a bad job vs. they're doing what they're supposed to do). Until now, we've always tried to deal with drama by attacking the drama itself - dropping toastpaint, locking the thread, anything to get people to stop arguing. We make it seem like there's no underlying argument, while all we're doing is just making people forget about it until eventually the same disagreement makes its way back to the surface and the drama starts all over again. All we're doing is continuously prolonging a confrontation with these underlying problems.

What we should do is attack the cause of the drama, the underlying problems. In this case, the biggest problem is the state of our leadership - some say we're doing well, some say we're doing badly. If we actually talk with the people disagreeing with us, we can figure out what exactly they have problems with. If we know what the problems are, we can address them more efficiently and give people the answers they're looking for, and if their concerns are dignified (right word? not sure), we can change our leadership techniques for the better. Either way, everyone will understand what we're doing and why we're doing it. There'll be no more disagreement on our leading, and therefore less drama.


Sorry about all this quoting, I'm just kinda burnt out too.


Last edited by Ju Ju Master on Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 am 
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I don't see anything wrong with the RT thread. Especially since it's been running so long. If it gets out of hand, a templock is acceptable. I see no reason for it to completely vanish.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 am 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
Acekirby wrote:
1. RT&I needs to go. It was an ok thread for a while, but lately it's just been a breeding ground for bad blood and drama. It takes away from other threads, as well. People just decide to post there instead of in our many other threads.


THIS.

More than anything, that thread needs to go.
...Wait, Why? Random Thoughts is where I go when whatever I want to say doesn't fit anywhere else!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 am 
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Or just make people post in the appropriate threads, instead of RT. But that will never work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 am 
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The Calcutta wrote:
Simon Zeno wrote:
Acekirby wrote:
1. RT&I needs to go. It was an ok thread for a while, but lately it's just been a breeding ground for bad blood and drama. It takes away from other threads, as well. People just decide to post there instead of in our many other threads.


THIS.

More than anything, that thread needs to go.
...Wait, Why? Random Thoughts is where I go when whatever I want to say doesn't fit anywhere else!

THIS.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:21 am 
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I have said this before, and I wil again.

First off, there are currently no innactive mods. PMG has been relieved of his duties.

Second off, I am willing to remove Rule #1. I never liked it. What it basically says is "Because we're always right, that's why!" It's what parents say to a 5 year old.

What I would like to do is if you have a problem with a user, please bring it up with myself or StrongRad. This is why we're here. If you have an issue with something else, then please, feel free to post it here, in suggestions. Want changes to the rules? Feel the need for new mods? Post it in Suggestions.

I'm willing to hear all your voices on the varying issues of the forum. I want this to be like a town meeting. I want to hear your opinions before we make a decision. We, the admins, would ultimately have the final decision, but are completely willing to hear what you have to say about it. Obviously, if it's a spammer or troll, they'll be outright banned. No meeting for the obvious stuff like that.

As for new mods, I want your opinions. This is not to be some sort of popularity contest. We are looking for people that are respected, friendly, trustworthy, and most importantly, bathe regularly.

Mods, remembers that we are users as well. I don't want to see you go "Well, I'm a mod, that's why!" To be respected, you need to earn it. That applies to everyone.

I am willing to talk to anyone about this. I have AIM, yahoo messenger, windows messenger, GTalk, plus my account here and on Serious Inc. If you need to talk about anything, then let's talk. I have said that before, and I will say it again.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:29 am 
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Ju Ju Master wrote:
Me, also in the mod forum wrote:
(In response to RT being deleted) Drama's gonna go somewhere. if there's no RT, it'll just go somewhere else, like it does when RT gets locked.

True, but there's going to be a difference. RT has become so critical to every user here that once something goes down there, things seem to grind to a halt. It's by far our biggest and most posted in thread, and I'm willing to bet it's also the most read. A lot of discussion goes on in that thread, and a lot of discussion that could be had in other threads are diverted into that one.

In the current state of the forum, if there is drama in RT, the whole forum stops to deal with it. I think if RT was deleted and the other threads became populous again, then if drama erupted in one, discussion could still possibly be going on in other threads, undisturbed.

This is kind of hard to explain...mind if I try an analogy? Say you go apple picking and have a lot of baskets. Now say once you're done, you put 75% of your apples in one basket, and the other 25% in the rest of them. On the way home, your 75% basket breaks and all your apples fall out. You've still got the 25% of good ones, but now you have to spend a lot of time picking up the now tainted apples off of the road. You also have to tell Random Man #1, 2, 3, and 4 why you're picking them all up. You're stuck with 75% bad apples that could cause problems later if you want to put them in a pie or whatever (see now how analogies suck). Now, instead, say you put 25% in each basket, and the same thing happens. You have to spend less time picking up the bad apples, and you have 75% good apples still going strong.

BASICALLY: What we're doing is putting all our apples in one basket [putting all discussion in one thread]. Every time it breaks [drama], we're worse off because we lose almost all our "apples" [it grinds everything to a halt and there's bad blood still festering]. If we decided to get rid of RT and spread out discussion, then if we had drama in one thread, it wouldn't be as bad.

That's kind of what I think would happen. Hope that helped, but it probably didn't.

Of course, this is all me right here. If you guys think it'd be all right sticking around, then go for it.

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Last edited by Acekirby on Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:34 am 
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Yeah, what he said.

Also, drama is less likely to erupt if you're actually talking about stuff, instead of just talking, I think. And, drama aside, most of what's said in there could either go in a pre-existing thread or be made into a new thread.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:35 am 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
Yeah, what he said.

Also, drama is less likely to erupt if you're actually talking about stuff, instead of just talking, I think. And, drama aside, most of what's said in there could either go in a pre-existing thread or be made into a new thread.
But then we would have so many threads that will probably only get 2-3 posts in it and then be forgotten.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:35 am 
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Like I said, if it gets dramatic, temp-lock it and throw the drama into the vault.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:37 am 
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also, this isn't a thread about Random Thoughts, its about the total Reformation of everything.

lol redundant

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:40 am 
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A possible solution would be to move the topic to like...Forum Games, or somewhere where the posts aren't counted, and make it into a Chat Thread or something.

I dunno, just throwing ideas out. Like I said, I'm pretty burnt out right now. It's 1:40 AM and I've been talking all night.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:40 am 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
Like I said, if it gets dramatic, temp-lock it and throw the drama into the vault.

temp-locks don't help anything, as was shown today. They just make the drama explode into a ton of different threads and such.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:41 am 
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No, that thread is fine where it is. For it to be in Forum Games wouldn't half to constitute a game?

And, rule changes. Here's what we should do with the two rules that I dislike:

Rule 1: Gone. Outta here. We don't need it, it's a stupid rule.

Rule 6: 4 chances, then you're outta there.

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Last edited by AbuGrape45 on Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:44 am 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
No, that thread is fine where it is. For it to be in Forum Games wouldn't half to constitute a game?

Maybe, but you have to admit that a LOT of the posts in RT would probably not be considered in depth analysis. Like I said, though, I'm just throwing ideas out.


The RT thing was not the focus of my PM/post, by far. What I'd rather discuss is the second point I made. (Not reposting it here, I'm too tired, just go look at it)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:49 am 
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The posts don't have to contribute to anything. That's why I don't think we should rempve it. We might even have benefited if it was stickied.

Now get down to brass tacks....

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