Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

That's exactly what I'd like to happen. I'm more than willing to listen to you guys, as long as it's in a calm and respective manner.

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Hey, this is just something I've been wondering about: banned people who create new usernames and post with those to avoid their ban.

What? Can they do that? Rusty, Cola, and briefly Teff, and I don't think anybody has really brought that up or has just shrugged it off; it seems to be a problem.

This is just something I was thinking about, so if this is stupid just ignore this post.

Yeah.

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I noticed that too but I don't really have a problem with it. None of those guys did anything on Purge scale.

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I'd like to discuss the betterment of this forum before I'm banned forever.

EDIT: Noid, I'm Permabanned.

You just hate us and don't want change.

I went against my own philosophy of fake accounts because by the time the ban was lifted, all of this would have blown over and there would have been no change or attempt to change whatsoever.

besides, I've kept (most of) the posts I make under this crappy name inside this thread, so It not like I'm going out and posting pics or anything.

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The Fall of Reich

This has been under discussion in the mod board forever. One of the first things I did in the mod board was try to see what people thought about how many warnings we should give people, and throw out some observations about what kinds of warnings work (calm and non-condescending ones) and what kinds of warnings just rile people up (all other kinds). But it quickly became obvious that for that to work right, we needed some system for tracking warnings we gave out so that all the other modmins could see and we could objectively present evidence. But putting together a system like that requires either a phpBB modification, and upgrade to phpBB3, or the addition of a new hidden board devoted solely to tracking warnings. Problem: all of these require Stu.

Now, don't be hating on Stu. He's not even around enough to be hated on because he has a kid and is dealing with some other srs issues right now. But there really does have to be an admin with the same level of authority as Stu, Dot Com, and Tom that is actually involved in this community. They need to let someone else into their group. I can understand their hesitance. Someone with that level of power needs to be trusted both in terms of their morals and their computer skills. But ironically, they don't know anyone here enough to make those decisions about anyone. So.. it's tough.

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ATTN: LOWER BOARD USERS HAVE MOVED TO ANOTHER FORUM. COME JOIN THE FUN!

Yeah, I saw that. Don't agree with it but whatever.

Back to admin/mod openess/warnings.

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Stu is just a jerk. If he were around more, I'm sure I'd see another side of him, but right now all I'm seeing of him are the few posts he makes every few months, and those are just condescending. And he's an admin just like Rammy or Sree. I don't see how he's any better than either of them.

When did this happen?

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The Fall of Reich

Eightish months ago, I think. Him and Seethroo's were in the range of each other, weren't they?

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This board is what I want you guys to use for discussing things.

The modmin board we want to keep hidden. Most of the time, we discuss things that need to be in private, like who to watch out for.

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EDIT: Wow, a lot was posted when I was writing this.

Most of the stuff you've sad is valid, Rusty. A couple things, though...


COLA and your bans weren't without warning - I know I've personally pmed COLA multiple times about profanity (and other modmins have as well) and I'm pretty sure you've been warned, too. One thing we've been trying to establish is a much more structured warning system, but to do this we'd need a much more structured offense-tracking system. I suggested a new offense-tracking system a few months ago, and everyone agreed on it, but we haven't been able to get the OK from a higher power like Stu or Tom. As you can see, we're trying to get Stu to give Rad and Ram more control over the forum to accomplish things like this, but we active modmins have been working as hard as we can to make warnings and bannings as fair as possible with what we have. Don't think we've been slacking off; we've really been trying.


Just for the record, as far as I know, we've never punished anyone for suggesting ways to improve the forum. The problem is, until now, there had never been any civilly put suggestions.

But, that doesn't matter now. I think we're going to continue to disagree on how well the modmins have preformed up until today.The important thing is that we're listening now, so there's no need to chastise us for what we may have done previously.


By "people who run this forum", I assume you mean Stu, Dot Com, etc. II don't think you're giving them enough credit, though. When we modmins proposed our rule changes in August, Dot Com helped us fix them, and since they went through, obviously Stu didn't have a problem with them.

Again, though, this doesn't matter now. Things are changing now, we understand.


As I said before, insulting people is not going to help your case, Stu's not a bad guy, and I don't know where you're getting the "ban ban ban" impression of him from. He's just not on often enough and not engaged enough with this community to be an effective admin. It's got nothing to do with him as a person.


I think the presence of this thread shows that we active modmins are all pretty open to it (We've been trying to get some change ourselves for a while)

Sorry if I sound nit-picky here, I agree with most of what you've said and I'm glad that you're trying to help fix this mess. I just don't want anybody thinking we haven't been trying. We really, really have.

...Then who's baby is this?

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The Fall of Reich

Okay then.

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Rusty, I'm willing to make a deal with you. You quit this fake account, and don't make another one, and I'll re-instate you in 1and a half week. But if you continue with this account, or make a new one, them the ban will continiously continue.

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Usually Ram or Rad would have deleted the fake accounts by now, but, at least for now, there seems to be a couple exceptions.

Well, that's because I allowed COLA to make it. TEF, I'll deal with that in a bit. And Rusty, I already stated that.

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I wasn't warned. I wasn't warned last time either. I was given suggestions, but in situations like that, there needs to be a concrete system. Which is where we agree.



I have been punished for suggesting things, however bluntly. But you're also right, it's behind us, and we can solve things in a more civil manner.



I'm not sure about this. There have been plenty of instances where people have said that those are the rules, agree or GTFO. Which I can understand, but if it keeps happening, it should be apparent that there is a problem with the rules.



I'm just stating this from my personal experience with him. Again, if he were around more, chances are I wouldn't be so angry with him.



Again, the instances of "Those are the rules, they're not changing anytime soon" are a great many.


And I totally understand. Things are behind us, and if we can just talk it out and reach an agreement, I'm sure everything will be a-ok.

Rammy, I'd love to do that, but I still want to discuss what's going on in this thread. What are your conditions in that case?

In regards to all the fake accounts: Teff's account has been around for a LONG time. I know for a fact he had it before PWNday, so it's not like he made it specifically for that. He didn't hurt anyone with his posts (quite a few people found them cool) and went on his way, so I don't think there should be serious backlash. COLA and Rusty created accounts for the sole purpose of posting here (Rusty not so much, you should really take that deal Rammy laid out), and them doing that has stimulated some really good discussion here.

One thing that bothers me is that we're waiting on inactive admins a lot. I know, I know, Ram and Rad are really active. But from what I can see, they really can't do anything without Stu's say-so. And we all know that Stu's pretty inactive. I think Ram and Rad should be given equal authority to Stu, as their admins as well. He could have the final say or whatever, but they shouldn't have to check with him on every little thing. And they especially shouldn't have to check with IDC. IDC is purely a product of the Wiki. As much as one doesn't want to admit it, we're a different creature than them. We have a different culture and we're used to different things. I love that Ram and Rad are admins because they know how everything goes down here. They shouldn't have to answer to people that really don't know what this forum is all about.

Let's see what we agree on so far:

1. Rule 1 needs to go or be changed. Personally, I'm all for Ramrod's suggested alteration to it. It's not as condescending as the current rule is, and it leaves room for debate and discussion if you feel cheated somehow.

2. The Modmins need to be more open. I think we can all agree on it. I think the Suggestions forum is a great medium for it. The Mod Board should probably stay, as I'm sure there is stuff there they still want private. But that's ok.

3. Global Moderation. We had this in the old regime and it always kind of baffled me as to why we dropped it. We have the manpower to easily pull this off now. I think if every mod has power in every board, we won't have to wait for specific mods to come and do stuff, especially because we're all pretty busy IRL as well.

4. RT is staying. I can't say I agree, but that's the overwhelming sentiment in the thread, so majority rule.

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Well, I've read some of this thread, skimmed it a little but mostly understand what's going on.

And I agree with what all's being said. Rule 1 definitely needs to be changed, Mods/Admins have to be more open, global moderation is a good idea, and, well, I dunno, I kinda wish something more could be done about RT&I, but it's too late, we've created kind of a monster, and in the end it's not hurting things that much.

Also, I think some of the power structure in the Modmin team needs to be changed. We need someone on the same power level as IDC or Stu or Tom who actually shows up often enough. Or we need all the Admins to just have the same level of power. This has already been said but I agree and I am saying it so shush.

Also, I approve of the suggestions of Shwoo, Ido and Ace as mods.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

Ok, Rule 1 needs to go. Been established.

Random Thoughts: No, keep it. True, alot of Drama starts there, but alot of cool things happen there too. It's like the forum's bar; everybody goes there and hangs out. And even if we did remove it, it wouldn't stop the drama.

Mods and Admins: I agree we do need a regular Admin with the same powers as Stu. But personally I don't think we need even more Mods and Admins, didn't we try to solve the problem like that a few months back?

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(THE ABOVE USER HAS BEEN BANNED)

This should be the verdict. Right here.

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Why thank you grape.

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(THE ABOVE USER HAS BEEN BANNED)

I think it's more agreed upon that rule 1 is staying, but is changing to be less all-encompassing. Again, it's a necessary evil.


This is a bigger problem than just Rule 1, RT and more powerful admins. There's still more we need to establish (and I'm gonna read through COLA's original post right now to see what we have left to decide on)

Ok, I can go with that. It's acctually what I'd prefer, but I thought we had already decided and I would be going into a loosing battle.

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(THE ABOVE USER HAS BEEN BANNED)

So, just for reference, here's our progress on the concerns brought up in the first post. This might not be all the concerns that have been brought up, but it'll help show what we still should try to do. So...


As Ram has said before, I don't think this is going to happen. Many of the admins you want removed are founders of the community, and chances are they still want their attachment. But if the senior admins can agree to give Ram and Rad the power the need to effectively administrate, it'll pretty much address the concerns this request is referring to. So here, we wait.


So far, it's been established that we will keep rule 1 but rework it so that it only serves the few purposes its intended to. So we need a wording for this (and I assume you'll all want to help with that)


We haven't touched on this one as much. If anyone's got suggestions, it'd be good to hear them.


Well, the example you've stated doesn't quite work - banning someone just because people dislike them is not something we can or should do, it's playing favorites and that's not good leadership. But we've established that we'll be more forward with and encourage input to decisions we make, through the use of the Suggestions board (or something similar). So I think this concern is as addressed as it can be right now.


I can't guarantee two (up until yesterday the plan was for one, though two seems to be growing more popular now) but that'll definitely be coming. So that's pretty much done with.

So what's left to do now?

For one, we make a new rule 1. I know there's been some suggestions already, we can probably work off of those.

And two, we decide if the mods and/or admins need guidelines, and, if so, what they should be. There's been a couple of suggestions for this also, though they may be hard to find.

If any other concerns have come up throughout the thread that I've missed, someone post them or let me know.

And, of course, everything we have "decided upon" still isn't set in stone - a lot of this is simply my take on things, and I'm obviously not the "leader" here. This thread hasn't even been open for a day yet, so there's still time to change and fix things.

A concrete warning system.

How about this, Ace and Rammy- I restrict my posting to tis topic.

Yeah...So can I get my account unlocked? This name freaks me out.

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The Fall of Reich

Well, there was that whole outline I drew up way back when, especially the first section. (Too bad I forgot about this thing until now and never brought it out into the open). There are some things about it that would have to change in response to this discussion here, though, but it could be used for some ideas.

I obviously spend way too much time thinking about this forum :'(

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ATTN: LOWER BOARD USERS HAVE MOVED TO ANOTHER FORUM. COME JOIN THE FUN!