Upsilon wrote:
Yeah, I took that for granted. What I was asking was, why doesn't the atonement count for anything when we sin? I would presume that we would still be saved.
Oh, yeah, in that case you're about right. As I waned eloquent paraphrasing Romans 8:39 (and Mortal's
Fathom album) and discussing Swindoll, a grace relationship with God prevents any sin from condemnational effect.
Upsilon wrote:
So, in fact, what you meant was not "literally" giving your sins to Jesus, but just stopping? Right.
Well, to be transparent, not
just stopping, but you're right about the stopping. People (and especially Christians) use the word "just" all the time to limit meaning
. In fact, most of Jesus' own preaching, and
all the preaching his disciples did while he was on earth was entreating people to stop sinning. Having said that, I acknowledge that it's hard to do! Most Christians invoke God's power to stop sinning, because they haven't the willpower to do it themselves.
Upsilon wrote:
Well, of course, God isn't required to let me into Heaven, and if he wants to close the Pearly Gates to me, that's his own prerogative. But that suggests to me that either he can't let me in(which is clearly not true) or that he doesn't want to let me in, which implies that he doesn't like me enough to, simply for concluding that he doesn't exist. Either way, it doesn't make sense to me.
Your frustration is widely shared! As I try to see everyone's viewpoint, it's not about those who happen not to get it, it's about those who actively refuse it. I emphasized that in my last post.
AgentSeethroo wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
God isn't required to let me into Heaven
What?? Who the heck said THAT? It sure wasn't Didymus, who you were quoting!
He was paraphrasing me, and in his defence, I think he's right. God doesn't
have to do anything by force. Its his good nature and gracious promise that I depend upon, just like I depend on the nature of my car when I drive, and the nature of my ladyfriend when we go out to eat.
AgentSeethroo wrote:
Edit: Note that I said accept, not believe.
That's where both of us live.
Let it be known: Christians don't believe that the universe is a guessing game where we guess right and everyone else guesses wrong. Christians have a personal relationship with God, an adoptive sonship that makes a real difference. Even Satan himself knows God is real, but that knowledge doesn't get him into heaven! Satan spits curses against God, while we follow him affectionately. And if Seethroo, Didymus, and I have some different ideas on some things, the fact that one "believes a little different" is not an issue for eternity. We all (apparently) follow and accept Christ.
AgentSeethroo wrote:
Now I change the subject for a second. What are your personal beliefs, Upsilon?
Upsilon, I'm going to agree with Seethroo for a bit here. You see, I'm the type of guy who spends hours listening and minutes talking when in contact with real people. I remember having extensive religious talks with a Hindu friend, during which most of the time he did that talking and I got to know him better. I haven't done that as well on the internet since it's a somewhat impersonal medium. While this thread's about a Christian God, I'm willing to subscribe to a thread on your point of view, as long as you'd take challenges and allegories there too. If you don't want earnest exploration, then I'll leave the thread alone as you wish!
InterruptorJones wrote:
I don't hate god any more than I hate Rutherford B. Hayes. The truth is that I have no knowledge of him... and could not concieve of hating him any more than I could hate any other figure I've only heard about in stories.
And, as I've read your posts, you've heard some pretty interesting stories! The offer to Upsilon it to you too, that I'd read a thread on your beliefs and not let it die with 0 replies
.
InterruptorJones wrote:
The difficulty many persons of faith... the coin has not two sides, but thousands, or millions, or an infinite number. ... Anyway, I already talked about this, with another wordy metaphor, which I might as well call
The Allegory of the Horses.
Just now read it, good allegory! It's not for nothing that Christians call non-Christians "the lost!" I'd probably have no reason to trust a monk who made empty threats and gave no direction.
I propose to you the same experement I've suggested to others, but you can only perform it if you're honestly interested in finding the truth. If you've seen the difficulty and given up, this won't work. If you don't
want it to work, it'll fail. But it worked for a man named Keith Green, who knew that
something was out there, and wanted to know and adhere to whatever actually was there.
The experement goes thus: pray for personal revalation. Forget the monk. It's basically a "will the true horse with the right number of teeth please step forward?" C.S. Lewis suggested in
The Screwtape Letters that we pray "not to who we think God is, but to God knows himself to be." God's not confused, though he certainly laughs at our simplicity in figuring him out. If you want the truth and to know him (the whole point of my sewer-mouse metaphor) and he's smart and kind as I seem to think he is, he'll speak back to you in a way that you
know is him. You'll discover, as I have, that he's been seeking me with more work than I've sought him! If the experement fails, and you've been
honestly hoping it would work, then I won't hold you accountable. However, please please don't waste your time if you don't really really want it to work. Isn't this the kind of way you'd expect the universe to work if God existed anyway?
Does a horse have 32 teeth? I don't know.