Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

A companion to the Homestar Runner Wiki
It is currently Thu May 28, 2020 4:49 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 480 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 16  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
furrykef wrote:
Nope. I don't hold any particular beliefs about life after death. I don't find it useful to speculate on such matters.


Kef, I couldn't agree with you more. Wondering about the afterlife just isn't productive. Maybe I'll go to Hell. Maybe I'll go to Heaven. Maybe Valhalla or Hades or Purgatory or Shangri-la or Elysium or Erewhon or Sto-Vo-Kor. Or maybe there's no afterlife, which is a concept I find at least as frightening as Hell. Like Pascal, I believe that if [a] [G|g]od[s] exist[s], [he|she|they] [is|are] infinitely incomprehensible, and I have no way of knowing where I'll end up or what I need to do to end up in the "good place". The best I can do is try to better humanity and hope it works out for me in the end.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
come on kef,haven't you ever wondered if you were to die at this exact second if you would be screwed or not?


Yeah, I've wondered. But what good does it do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
furrykef wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
so you backtrack, trying to get kef to move the discussion to PM (which is a silly idea, IMO)


Actually he didn't. I think he meant that I should send him a PM whenever I respond so that my response to his response won't get lost three pages pack.


Oh, fair enough. Strike that.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
come on kef,haven't you ever wondered if you were to die at this exact second if you would be screwed or not?


Prof, I see where you're going with this, but try to tackle the subject with a little more subtlety and sensitivity.

And Jones, if I seemed brutal and TOO to the point earlier, please forgive me.

I hate to sound condemning, but I fear that I did in that post.

Been thinkin' about that all night...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:19 pm 
Offline
Wiki Proprietor
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 499
Location: 14.7 miles South of Stu's backyard
InterruptorJones wrote:
Okay, so does this mean that whether or not I'm "one of his elect" has already been determined by God? I guess a better question would be, if I'm not currently one of his elect, is there any way that might turn around?

Sub-question: How do denominations fit into all of this?

Your first question here depends quite a bit on the second. There are many different theological positions on what exactly the word "elect" means. I, for one, am a 5-point Calvinist. I won't attempt to explain it beyond the scope presented in that article. Other views include Arminianism, and more recently, Open Theism. From my limited understanding, Calvinism seems the most Biblical, but is sometimes confused with something called Hyper-Calvinism (also discussed in the Calvinism article above) and hence, unfortunately, is considered by some to be radically fundamentalist.

InterruptorJones (emphasis added by me) wrote:
Okay, so this makes me feel a little less nervous for our friend the hypothetical bushman. But where does Jesus fit into this? I've always been under the impression that Jesus, specifically, was an integral part of being saved. And sure, God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are One, but if the man feels the Holy Spirit as you describe but never learns about Jesus in particular (I mean, I've never heard of any tribes of aborigines having been discovered who seemed spontaneously to know about Jesus via contact with the Holy Spirit). I guess these questions might be beyond the scope of today's lesson, what with Mysterious Ways and all.

Yeah, pretty much. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:21 am
Posts: 57
Location: CT
furrykef wrote:
Nope. I don't hold any particular beliefs about life after death. I don't find it useful to speculate on such matters.

Interruptor Jones wrote:
I have no way of knowing where I'll end up or what I need to do to end up in the "good place". The best I can do is try to better humanity and hope it works out for me in the end.


Oh yeah, it doesn't matter. It's only your eternal soul.

Eternal means eternal. Forever. Neverending. It's not just an "Oh, well, oops, I'm in hell. That stinks. I'll go make jokes about how hot it is to Hitler over there." It's not like that. It's eternal, constant torture and incomprehensible pain. It's utter condemnation. And it's the separation from God. Forever. With no hope.

Here on earth, there is hope. You have been blessed with the chance to make the decision yourself. Hell is a choice. You don't have to do it. But right now, you seem to be making the pro-hell choice. All, all you have to do is ask Jesus to forgive you, and you get eternal joy, happiness, and togetherness with God. The best you can do is not just to "push a button and hope". The best you can do is make a surefire commitment with our Lord.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
InterruptorJones wrote:
Okay, so this makes me feel a little less nervous for our friend the hypothetical bushman. But where does Jesus fit into this? I've always been under the impression that Jesus, specifically, was an integral part of being saved. And sure, God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are One, but if the man feels the Holy Spirit as you describe but never learns about Jesus in particular (I mean, I've never heard of any tribes of aborigines having been discovered who seemed spontaneously to know about Jesus via contact with the Holy Spirit). I guess these questions might be beyond the scope of today's lesson, what with Mysterious Ways and all.


I've read about this guy who was in a tribe in Africa. He felt some presence, and he couldn't figure out exactly what it was. He somehow understood certain things to be true and was acting differently from the rest of his tribe due to these new "convictions" he discovered.

Eventually, a missionary showed up in his part of the continent and started "givin' em Jesus".
When he heard the missoinary's teachings, he was floored.
He said somethings along the lines of "That's him! That's what I've felt! It's Jesus!"

True, it wasn't spontaneous, but clearly the Holy Spirit was touching his heart and he never really knew WHAT it was.

I'm not arguing with ya, Jones, just sharing an interesting story.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
AgentSeethroo wrote:
And Jones, if I seemed brutal and TOO to the point earlier, please forgive me.


Which post are you referring to? So far nobody's been brutal, and I don't think that you could be "too to the point". The more people who cut right to the chase, the more productive discussions like this get.

TimMierz wrote:
All, all you have to do is ask Jesus to forgive you, and you get eternal joy, happiness, and togetherness with God.


Tim, you forget that I don't share your beliefs. If your faith happens to be the "true" one, then yeah, following your advice would earn me that cushy place in heaven. But I don't know that yours is the true one; I don't have that sort of faith. Unlike you, I don't know who god is or what he wants from me, and for all I know, worshipping a Christian god is the one thing that will get me sent to hell because it pisses some other god off.

I understand that for a true Christian, such a view might be inconceivable, because many of you feel your god's presence in your life and have seen or felt what you view as proof. I won't say that what you feel isn't legitimate (I haven't felt it, so how can I say?), but I have not seen or felt any proof, so at this time in my life there is nothing, apart from fear, to motivate me to believe in a Christian god any more than any other god or no god at all.

Your point of view, Tim, seems to be that I'm better off believing in your god than not, because I have everything (i.e. eternity) to lose if I don't, and nothing to lose (and potentially everything to gain) if I do. That was Pascal's view, too, but sadly, it doesn't work that way.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
TimMierz wrote:
furrykef wrote:
Nope. I don't hold any particular beliefs about life after death. I don't find it useful to speculate on such matters.

Interruptor Jones wrote:
I have no way of knowing where I'll end up or what I need to do to end up in the "good place". The best I can do is try to better humanity and hope it works out for me in the end.


Oh yeah, it doesn't matter. It's only your eternal soul.


But there are so many possibilities that how can we possibly know which is the right way? Keep in mind you're talking to secular atheists here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
JoeyDay wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
Okay, so does this mean that whether or not I'm "one of his elect" has already been determined by God? I guess a better question would be, if I'm not currently one of his elect, is there any way that might turn around?

Sub-question: How do denominations fit into all of this?

Your first question here depends quite a bit on the second.


Yes, given. But what I was after was an answer according to your beliefs. The Calvinism article (I admit I only skimmed it) doesn't seem to answer my question about whether being "one of the elect" is something predetermined at my birth (well, presumably long before), or something that can affected later on.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
InterruptorJones wrote:
Which post are you referring to? So far nobody's been brutal, and I don't think that you could be "too to the point". The more people who cut right to the chase, the more productive discussions like this get.


This one.

AgentSeethroo wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
Joey, I always look forward to your posts.

JoeyDay wrote:
Fortunately, God is gracious. He loves us and wants us to be with him in heaven. Salvation, in every shape and form, comes purely through grace. If the aborigine in Africa is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, not because he isn't accountable for his sin. If an aborted baby is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, and not because the child hasn't reached a certain level of maturity. These decisions are the Lord's to make.


Can you tell me, then, where I stand? Clearly I haven't "recieved Christ", don't see any evidence of any god around me (not an discussion I want to have right now), and, by Christian standards, I'm a sinner who has not repented. Then again, I'm not a bad person. If the roof falls down on me at this very moment, do I get a Grace pass, or not? I'm not trying to be egregious, here; I really want to know.


This is always hard to say, but there are good people in Hell. Good, but unsaved.

Josh.


After I wrote that, It just seemed really cold and compassionless...and condemning.

If I


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
InterruptorJones wrote:
JoeyDay wrote:
InterruptorJones wrote:
Okay, so does this mean that whether or not I'm "one of his elect" has already been determined by God? I guess a better question would be, if I'm not currently one of his elect, is there any way that might turn around?

Sub-question: How do denominations fit into all of this?

Your first question here depends quite a bit on the second.


Yes, given. But what I was after was an answer according to your beliefs. The Calvinism article (I admit I only skimmed it) doesn't seem to answer my question about whether being "one of the elect" is something predetermined at my birth (well, presumably long before), or something that can affected later on.


Your "Denomination" has nothing to do with being one of God's chosen.
Religion and denominations are something created by man, not God.
It's important to separate the two when talking about salvation and God's plan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:40 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Joke, PA
I think a lot of us more-secularish Non Christians see religions as "denominations." I just want all these religious people to stop starting wars. And by religious people, I would include Pat Robertson types along with Aya Tollahs and Al Sadrs. If that sounds too harsh, feel free to scold me. Mr. Robinson and son have been supporting holy war since the beginning from their passive-agressive power nightly soap box.

And to say that certain people are going to eternal hell while you are going to heaven sounds like blind faith to me. It's a very black and white view of death, death being perhaps the most complex thing of all.

Or perhaps death is very simple: You're gone, what do you care?

A good book that really made me question the darker sides of my religious beliefs is Tom Robbin's "Skinny Legs and All." In it, he really rails against "looking forward to heaven" and "worrying about getting to heaven." i think those two things, and a third counterpart, "fear of hell" are bad-for-you, and cause you to love people less.

And loving people is what it's all about, man! I mean loving brother sister love. Man. Woman.

If you've never read Tom Robbins, I would highly encourage you to.

As far as people being atheists, I have never met a person who called themselves an aetheist taht didn't believe in God. Usually God goes by a different name, but there is a Divine Order somewhere in their thinking. A Beauty that just makes you cry at the sheer Joy of it. A love that knows no bounds. Where death has lost its sting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
lumberjack vegetable wrote:
If you've never read Tom Robbins, I would highly encourage you to.


I read "Half-Asleep in Frog Pajamas". On the whole I didn't like it on two counts: it had a gimmick that really does not work (second-person narrative; it could work but he abuses it too much), and it has the slowest start I have ever read in a novel. Reading the opening chapters makes me at least half-asleep whether or not I'm in frog pajamas...oy. But maybe his other books are better.

Quote:
As far as people being atheists, I have never met a person who called themselves an aetheist taht didn't believe in God. Usually God goes by a different name, but there is a Divine Order somewhere in their thinking. A Beauty that just makes you cry at the sheer Joy of it. A love that knows no bounds. Where death has lost its sting.


I hate to say this, but I'm always annoyed by "there are no atheists in foxholes" -- and here you seem to be saying that without the "foxhole" part.

This reminds me of the story I heard in art class (we often held informal discussions while we worked) that atheists were once given a lie detector test and they were asked if they believed in God. All answered "no", and all failed. I asked the person who told me this if they did the same test on Christians. She said they did not, but repeated that none of the atheists passed the test (like repeating the results makes it more scientific). People seem to want to prove, or at least believe, that somewhere deep down we all believe in God. Why?

I will grant you that I have room for a Divine Order in both my mind and my heart -- but that's me, not all atheists. I always allow the possibility of God existing. But I don't believe it. And many people do not even allow for the possibility, and I think they truly have no room for such things. Some people just refuse to consider possibilities other than what they've already decided.

That's a shame, really...

- Kef


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
furrykef wrote:
This reminds me of the story I heard in art class (we often held informal discussions while we worked)


I love art class.

Douglas Adams wrote some interesting stuff about god. He referred to himself as a "radical atheist" because he got so sick of people equating atheism and agnosticism and wanted to drive home the fact that when he said atheist he really meant it. (On another note, he wrote a very interesting little philosopy-book-slash-novella called "God's Debris" .. it's not new in terms of theory, but it's a fun read, short, and cheap.) The "there are no true atheists" thing is bunk, of course. There are plenty of self-proclaimed atheists out there who will wind up praying on their death beds, but there are still plenty of atheists who truly have no belief the spiritual, a greater force, or whatever you want to call it, and never will.

As I said before, I am just as convinced of the absence of a god as I am of the existence of a god; that is, not at all.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
InterruptorJones wrote:
As I said before, I am just as convinced of the absence of a god as I am of the existence of a god; that is, not at all.


Hm. Your point of view is so drastically different from mine. I completely embrace what you're saying.
I may not agree at all, and furthermore would like you (and everyone) to believe what I believe, but that doesn't mean I'll ever condemn you or PRESS my beliefs on you.

In basic training, there were these 2 atheists from CA in my company, and they had all sorts of questions, and I spent lots and lots of time just answering them. They told me that they would probably never believe and I just said "that's cool" and kept answering.

When they lost interest in what I had to say, I just went on with my life.

What I can't really embrace about other "religions"...let's call them "belief systems"...is that there really seems to be no change.
When I got saved, I really was a different, better, person. My teachers and people I went to school with would go outta their way to ask me what was different about me, what changed me...
My beliefs in Christ called for a change in my life. A change in the way I act, the way I related to other people, the way I lived.

When I think of atheism, and please forgive my ignorance, I think that what does it matter if you screw up? You have no real REASON to be good, other than the fact that it's what you SHOULD do. There seems to be no REAL reason to make yourself a better person...

Isn't it also just a lack of religion, basically?

I'm just trying to understand, please don't crucify me.


Curiously yours,
Josh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
AgentSeethroo wrote:
When I think of atheism, and please forgive my ignorance, I think that what does it matter if you screw up? You have no real REASON to be good, other than the fact that it's what you SHOULD do. There seems to be no REAL reason to make yourself a better person...


I don't have a good answer to your question. If there is no god (I'm speaking hypothetically, here), then no, we don't have anybody to answer to in an afterlife. So I could lead a really awful life, taking advantage of people for my own gain, and get away with it, punishment-free. But that doesn't mean we have no reason not to lead a "good" (in quotation marks because "good" and "evil" are meaningless in an atheist context) life. There are plenty of reasons to be a good person without god. The biggest one would be for my children. If I lead a good life, then maybe I'll have made this universe a better place for my children and their children. That's a huge deal to me.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:40 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Joke, PA
furrykef wrote:
I hate to say this, but I'm always annoyed by "there are no atheists in foxholes" -- and here you seem to be saying that without the "foxhole" part.

I will grant you that I have room for a Divine Order in both my mind and my heart -- but that's me, not all atheists. I always allow the possibility of God existing. But I don't believe it. And many people do not even allow for the possibility, and I think they truly have no room for such things. Some people just refuse to consider possibilities other than what they've already decided.

That's a shame, really...

- Kef

I do believe that everyone has a knowlege of a Divine Order, so I would have to disagree with you. I would imagine if a person cannot allow for
any Divine anything -- I guess that would mean that they could do anything that they want -- No karma, everything is random, you can do negative things and "get away with it."

I would imagine that person would be very unhappy, because they are lying to themselves. If you think you can do harm to others and to yourself, and "get away with it" because there is no Divine Rule to set Karma-moral-good vs.bad ground rules, then you're just kidding yourself.

If I cause you ill, it will be visited double on me, even if it is only the numbing of my conscience. You can't truly be happy unless you do good. That's what Jesus was all about, in my opinion.

By the way, poor Robbins choice. Anything but that book, I should have said. My wife loved that one, but she's in the minority. Jitterbug Perfume, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, Still Life With Woodpecker, and one I'm in the middle of, oh shoot I forget the name. They are all crazy interesting.

I don't much care for the theology of Douglas Adams. He sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder to me. I do like his imagination, though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
AgentSeethroo, I also see a potential problem with your idea that fundamental to religion is this tendency toward positive change. The atheist cliche, of course, is that more murders have taken place for religious reasons than any other. I don't know about the actual arithmetic validity of that statement, but it's worth considering.

Try not to take this as an attack (it's not), but there's nothing inherently good about religion. Being religious doesn't lead toward goodness. Satanism is a religion (recognized by the U.S. Armed Forces, I'm told). Many religions promote goodness, Christianity among them, of course. But I'm sure most of us know at least one person who "found Christ" and suddenly became spiteful, hateful people.

I'm not making generalizations here. I believe you when you say that your experience with religion made me a better person. And I can't say that atheism makes better people, but I don't believe that it makes worse people, any more than any other belief system.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
lumberjack vegetable wrote:
I do believe that everyone has a knowlege of a Divine Order


I know that I don't have knowledge of a Divine Order, but you're going to tell me that I'm lying to myself? This sounds suspiciously like the popular "people who claim they're gay are just lying to themselves". Not to lump you among that crowd, but it sounds like very similar reasoning.

Believe me, if I saw evidence of god, I'd be all over it. What motivation could I possibly have to deny such evidence if I felt it in my heart?

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:58 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Utah baby!
isn't this quote Tom Robbins? I can't remember which book, but I love the sentiment.


I beleive in nothing, everything is sacred
I believe in everything, nothing is sacred

_________________
"I have spent my days stringing and unstringing my instrument but the song I have come to sing remains unsung"

Are you for good, or are you for awesome?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:40 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Joke, PA
IJ, you said earlier:
Quote:
I don't have a good answer to your question. If there is no god (I'm speaking hypothetically, here), then no, we don't have anybody to answer to in an afterlife. So I could lead a really awful life, taking advantage of people for my own gain, and get away with it, punishment-free. But that doesn't mean we have no reason not to lead a "good" (in quotation marks because "good" and "evil" are meaningless in an atheist context) life. There are plenty of reasons to be a good person without god. The biggest one would be for my children. If I lead a good life, then maybe I'll have made this universe a better place for my children and their children. That's a huge deal to me.
I see what you're saying, about telling people that they are lying to themselves, but the fact you would be able to teach 'right' from 'wrong' to a child speaks of Divine Order to me. Or that you can teller that the universe is a "better place" or a "worse place." The fact that you were given a 'Conscience' speaks of Divine Order.

I did sound rather dogmatic there, though. I don't mean to tell anyone, on this forum or off, that they are lying to themselves. Thanks for calling me on it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
lumberjack vegetable wrote:
the fact you would be able to teach 'right' from 'wrong' to a child speaks of Divine Order to me. Or that you can teller that the universe is a "better place" or a "worse place."


Does it? "Right" and "wrong" are terms of religious origin, and are as null as "good" and "evil" outside of a religious context. We teach kids about "right" and "wrong" because the majority of them are indoctrinated into a faith that teaches them that it's good to be "good", and it's far more convenient to call an action "wrong" than it is to explain to a child how their actions potentially affect humanity as a whole in a negative way and why they should care. If a child does something harmful, it's a far more effective deterrent to tell them that they shouldn't do it because it's "wrong", because they're trained to know that wrong" equals acting against god, and that acting against god is the path to hell. It's a matter of practicality.

I've put a lot of thought into this exact issue (the meaning of "right" and "wrong"), and I do know that if I had a kid at this point in my life, I would try to find an alternative to disciplining them based upon "right" and "wrong".

Quote:
The fact that you were given a 'Conscience' speaks of Divine Order.


I disagree. Conscience can be explained just as easily in terms of psychology as it can in theological terms.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Last edited by InterruptorJones on Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
AgentSeethroo wrote:
When I think of atheism, and please forgive my ignorance, I think that what does it matter if you screw up? You have no real REASON to be good, other than the fact that it's what you SHOULD do. There seems to be no REAL reason to make yourself a better person...


This is difficult for me to explain, and my sleepiness is no help. But here goes nothin'. I will offer my point of view as just an atheist; dragging Buddhism into this would be out of place.

I understand your point of view, although of course I don't agree with it. I have my own moral code. I admit I don't always follow it, which makes me a hypocrite, but I'll readily point out that many Christians do the same thing, and -- not saying this is any of you guys here -- some will blow it off, figuring if they pray for forgiveness, it's OK. As the old saying goes, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. I'd imagine that goes double when dealing with somebody who would never grant such permission to you!

But we have nobody to ask for forgiveness from, other than people we have wronged and ourselves. You might think that this just makes things even easier. Nope! I can't speak for everybody, but I tend to hold guilt for a long time. If something goes wrong and it's my fault, I must bear the full responsibility. Now, I very rarely regret anything I've done, no matter how bad it is; that is, if I had the opportunity to take it back, I wouldn't do it. But I wouldn't simply throw the matter out the window, either. Dwelling on things is one of my weaknesses, let me tell you.

But why would I try to be good in the first place? You speak the phrase "it's what you SHOULD do" as though it were some arbitrary abstract thing. If it's what I should do, there must be a reason for that, too. The most obvious is that it's in my best interest. Give and ye shall receive (at least the giver secretly hopes). But I think we all have certain rights, most importantly the right to live. I think that's something inherent in life: if we were not meant to live, we would not. And we all have a right to happiness, for in such a state we experience life at its best.

I'm doing a lousy job of explaining this, but I think you can see what I'm trying to get at here. Besides, we're sort of hard-wired to act in the best interest of our species to begin with. We're built to make friends, and to treat them right, and so forth. And why shouldn't we? Sure, we can step on toes and exploit people, but in the end I don't think doing so is really in anybody's best interest. It's just delusion.

Okay, rambling over. :)

- Kef


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:57 am
Posts: 2981
Location: Oklahoma City
Well, now that my long post is done I see we speak now of right and wrong. My approach differs a bit from Jones'. I do believe in "right" and "wrong", but I readily agree that they are abstract and, in a sense, arbitrary concepts. They are literally impossible to define except in terms of some kind of law (be it a personal ethical code, God's law, or legislative law). What's "wrong" to me may be "right" to you and neither to a third person. But if you do the thing in question, are you wrong? I cannot say because "right" and "wrong" are not objective truths to me. However, if I had to decide, I would actually say it's both.

- Kef


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:23 am
Posts: 2562
Location: I seem to have...pooped......in my pants...
InterruptorJones wrote:
Try not to take this as an attack (it's not), but there's nothing inherently good about religion.


I completely agree. In my past posts, I said basically the same thing. Your relationship with God comes from God, is created by God.

Religion was created by man. Things were on track in the Christian church for a while, but then man said "things should be done this way" and started changing things to conform to his own vision.

I'm a Christian. I'm not a Babtist or Methodist or Catholic, those are religions. I'm a Christian, which is a way of life.

I'll expand on this thought some other time, because I have to go home now.

Thanks for another great day of discussion.


J.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:39 pm 
Offline
Wiki Proprietor
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 12:21 am
Posts: 499
Location: 14.7 miles South of Stu's backyard
InterruptorJones wrote:
Yes, given. But what I was after was an answer according to your beliefs. The Calvinism article (I admit I only skimmed it) doesn't seem to answer my question about whether being "one of the elect" is something predetermined at my birth (well, presumably long before), or something that can affected later on.

The section on Unconditional Election was really the only section of the article that deals with your question, and I admit that it doesn't do a very good job of explaining things. I kindof only skimmed the article myself before posting it, but I've gone back in since and read it.

The reason I haven't tackled this head-on is because I'm afraid it would take me pages and pages just to give it a fair treatment. A good book I can recommend on the subject is Chosen By God by R.C. Sproul. Maybe you can check out a copy from your local library?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:40 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Joke, PA
Do you believe in Inspiration?

I believe in Inspiration.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:03 am
Posts: 1967
Location: Yonkers,NY
Yah, I beleve in inspiration. Sometimes a really good A+ idea will come into my head so I just look at the sky(or ceiling) and say "Thanks for my daily bread"

Will there be a test after this discussion is over?

_________________
RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 6:05 am
Posts: 5636
Location: swirlee.org for great justice
I believe in a thing called love;
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart.

_________________
StrongCanada wrote:
Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 480 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 16  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group